Queen Cutlery, ongoing history....

The local hardware store, directly across the street from the Home Depot, told me that Case, Buck and the "Swiss army knife maker" went out of business, and the Frost/Taylor and Smith and Wesson brands were better replacements. I informed them these companies were still on business and they actually brought basic Bucks and Victorinox back in. The Tractor Supply Company across the street sells tons of Taylor Schrade AND Case knives from their small display. Many knife users are not online, if they can't walk into Walmart or Dicks etc and get a knife, they are sunk and have to settle.

I have been in four real knife shops, one went out of business when I started driving. One, in an urban touristy area, barely moves any Case products but is selling $450 priced mid techs like hot cakes. One, in a rural resort area, has most of their store dedicated to Case knives. The third, in a resort rural coastal area, sells a lot of slipjoints . The demand is out there. The one shop has a huge Amish customer base, even though their prices are MSRP or above. Of course the Amish are not going to peruse the internet but they can order out of a catalog yet they go there. The store on the coastal resort area is just off the beaten path on the way to the shore but they serve the local community, and the yearly residents are farmers and tourist industry workers that buy kitchen cutlery and working knives.

Location location etc, but two of the shops, the rural resorts, are in family owned buildings on family owned property. Both are farms. Both have been around for a long time. The current owners are 2nd generation. The one hosts meet and greets with reps from Buck and Case every year and the other can call most any manufacturers president and get instant access. GEC is touted by both as an excellent company but too expensive, and is only carried by one. Hopefully the urban shop will be swayed by a hounds tooth I traded to him. Queen is carried by both but they tell you they will help you find a good one in regards to fit and finish. Boker is well represented but none have heard of Canal Street. Except for Magnums and some Crkt slipjoints, that's it. Yet two of them sell Case like water in the desert. Mike Dye told me one time he had hundreds of Case knives to put up over the weekend. Just a weekly shipment. He runs a store front too. I don't want to see these companies sacrifice quality for quantity but they can thrive . Hopefully the next recession doesn't slam them.
 
Wow!... nice that you have some actual hands on places to check some of these brands out. Except for a big chain place I have purchased some Case from (25 miles away), and maybe a few Bucks here and there... nothing else is available hands on for me. I think you have it pretty good, I am envious! ;-)
 
A few stores around me sell Case brand knives and you see a lot of Frost Cutlery (TN). Sportsman Warehouse sells a variety of knives, but most are much more expensive than online prices. But I still have bought a few there (couple Enduras and a Delica). I sometimes visit the big knife store in Sevierville TN and it is always a treat in the sense that few places I have seen have such variety available for handling. Yeah, you see the Gerber Bear Gryllis stuff locally.

So, if I want to make some effort, there are stores in my area where I can look at knives. I am going to make a point of looking for Utica branded knives.
 
Mike, Stan, Bob...all fantastic points about the industry and economy. I could wax ad nauseam about the lack of respect or time spent with the Greatest Generation, technology and the value we place on "modern skills", narcissistic youth, digital communication destroying interpersonal relationships, the fatherless families, et al.

But I believe we can all change these things. I try more and more everyday to find a youngster who's being ignored, or is walking around like a zombie on a smartphone, and just talk to them. It's amazing how many people seem stunned if you ask them, genuinely, how their day is going. And sometimes you get to talk about something that might interest them enough to Google and read about...whether it's a possible career path, traditional skills, history, or spirituality. Anything beats reading the 17th article about Miley Cyrus "twerking".

The verbose and rambling point I am trying to make is this...we can engage and challenge others, or we can piss and moan that things are falling apart. I used to do the latter, now I strive to do the former.
 
This side of the forum is the cats pajamas. I have always had a soft spot for Queen cause that's what grandpa had. My brother is a Case addict so I like those too. I feel warm and fuzzy whenever I use old timey knives just like when I shoot my Pops 30-30. Sometimes I think if these old tools could talk they'd say "put me to work". Maybe it's me but I feel the traditional knives put off a positive vibe a lot less mean than some of the new styles of knives.
Respectfully, Chance.
 
Just wanted to use this thread as a report on the latest Queen knife to arrive.

As I live in Scandiland, shops selling US made knives are rare and the prices would be hobbling...So, internet for me or as in this case, getting from a forum member. Just got a Queen QCCC Teardrop in Ebony. I have the two bone versions (Green and Winterbottom) these were a SFO from a certain US dealer who is not I think a member here. The latest one is really super, decent ebony, very good finish, a small gap or two and VERY slight play, but it's a beautiful big knife and I'm really pleased to own it. The Winterbottom was also fine, curiously, the Greenbone bought direct from the dealer was much less satisfactory...wrong knife sent, then some suggestion I could keep it and get a discount from the next Teardrop I buy...no no. When the right knife eventually turned up, long wait, extra expense, it was damaged & faulty. Big chip around the shield, hairline cracks on the pins on the other side, many gaps & lot of blade-play. It became a user but it annoyed me to get this type of experience as the other knives bought from private individuals have bee very nice. I think he may have been running low on stock and the whole thing was a mess.

Today's arrival is a fine testament to Traditional knife skill, when they are good, I'd go as far as to say Queen Cutlery make the most beautiful knives out there.

Thanks, Will
 
Call up GEC, Queen, and Case and ask them if they are interested in competing with $10 knives. Not only are they not interested, but they don't stand a chance. Even if they were given a subsidized unlimited amount of money to update, there is no reason. For the factory to sell a distribution channel a product that could make it to the customer for $10; they would have to give it away. And I had a friend that lost money on every sale, but made it up in volume - these factories will probably not subscribe to that logic.

The underlying support for these companies is declining. Not in masses, but in small numbers here and small numbers there. None of three mentioned are banking a significant yearly profit and two of the three have either had several rounds of layoffs or changed hands completely. Thus, I don't think we are looking for one to close this year; but when they can't be profitable - they will not stay open. Regardless of how much their customers love their product and feel they should be able to compete better. The people that own the company get to decide when their attempts are finished, not the loyal supporters. It would be nice if they could deposit admiration and loyalty; sadly they cannot - they have to sell product.

Nobody loves the traditional slipjoint more than I do; but every time this conversation comes up it reminds of the Gordon Gekko "Buggy Whip" speech.
 
Mike, I hope you don't take offense, but what would you, and small vendors like yourself, do if they closed? Sell your remaining stock and then sell second hand knives? Any of these companies fall by the wayside, and, except for second hand stock, where do you guys go? eBay sellers? I hope that they stick around, and that YOU guys stick around. I don't know what I'd do if my crack dealers went away ;). I ask because I'm sure you've thought about it, as have others. Sad to think about, and these companies should be supported. I am 34, I have been trying to get my little brother into traditionals, he likes balis and that's it. I will give my nephew a few knives, and any other nephews, nieces and kids of my own I may have, I will gift knives to. That doesn't make collectors. Who needs more than a hunting knife and an everyday carry piece? No one, but we collect, we're all a little messed up. Look at gun shows, at the old knives. Guys in their 50s and older looking them over. I deal with a local guy, he and I have traded. He loves the new GECs, but said if he hadn't traded me for some older knives, he never would have carried such expensive newer knives. Someone looked at a 65 Ben Hogan I had traded him, and exclaimed, they don't make them like they used to. I looked at the dealer, and he told the guy it was a brand new knife. The guy said hmmm, Chinese? People just don't know. We set him straight, but he was convinced it was made in China!
 
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Interesting topic, but if we don't start talking about knives pretty soon, Frank's gonna kick us over into the General forum someplace. :)

I did Google "History of Queen Cutlery" and came up with some interesting tidbits. Sort of in line with the current way the knife industry is going, Queen was started buy some guys who didn't like how Schatt and Morgan was being run and started their own company. After Schatt and Morgan failed in business, Queen bought them and took over the name and factory as well, which is why Queen is the current maker of Schatt and Morgan.

Looks like Queen is no stranger to having to readjust to changing times because it seems that they had some tough times in the 60s and ended up being sold by the original families to Servotronics (which seems to have been an unlikely combo). It was almost a year ago to the day (of this post) that Ken Daniels bought Queen from Servotronics and started running it as a private company.

They have a number of interesting new products listed for their 2013 lineup so hopefully they will be able to continue to innovate and provide us with other choices going forward. It seems that knife companies always seem to do better when run as privately held, family-run businesses than as parts of bigger corporations. Lets see if Mr. Daniels can make a run of things.

Definitely an interesting topic (the original one) and an interesting insight into the history of American manufacturing in general.
 
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I don't think they will all go away for a long time. The reason is there are still people who make nostalgic buggy whips and people who still make dot matrix printers. Both have buyers.

As long as there is a market for them, traditional pocket knives will be made.

What would we do if traditional knives did go by the wayside....I don't really know. As a dealer, if GEC or Queen went out of business it would make a big change, but one going out wouldn't stop us. All of them...now that would be a bit scary.

silenthunterstudios said:
Mike, I hope you don't take offense, but what would you, and small vendors like yourself, do if they closed? Sell your remaining stock and then sell second hand knives? Any of these companies fall by the wayside, and, except for second hand stock, where do you guys go? eBay sellers? I hope that they stick around, and that YOU guys stick around. I don't know what I'd do if my crack dealers went away ;). I ask because I'm sure you've thought about it, as have others. Sad to think about, and these companies should be supported. I am 34, I have been trying to get my little brother into traditionals, he likes balis and that's it. I will give my nephew a few knives, and any other nephews, nieces and kids of my own I may have, I will gift knives to. That doesn't make collectors. Who needs more than a hunting knife and an everyday carry piece? No one, but we collect, we're all a little messed up. Look at gun shows, at the old knives. Guys in their 50s and older looking them over. I deal with a local guy, he and I have traded. He loves the new GECs, but said if he hadn't traded me for some older knives, he never would have carried such expensive newer knives. Someone looked at a 65 Ben Hogan I had traded him, and exclaimed, they don't make them like they used to. I looked at the dealer, and he told the guy it was a brand new knife. The guy said hmmm, Chinese? People just don't know. We set him straight, but he was convinced it was made in China!
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silenthunterstudios said:
Mike, I hope you don't take offense, but what would you, and small vendors like yourself, do if they closed?
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There are many that only really sell one brand. They are trying to branch out, but finding it difficult. Thus, those would not last any time if their factory had troubles. But, in general, any single brand going away would not have a dire impact on most. I have always done this as more of a hobby than trying to make a living. It does pay the bills, but God was good to me in a previous career and I am not dependent on it. Knives are my pass-time and I do it more for the friends and the hobby than the income. Once I decide I am no longer interested or it isn't fun I could sell out of stock and turn the lights off the website on my way out the door.

When a factory can't make a knife that both they and the distribution channel can make a profit on; they stop making it. I don't understand why it surprises some that there would be talk of our knife factories going out of business in a decade of more knife factories going out of business than probably any other in history. Brands that factories could no longer justify making in the last few years that had been around for more than a generation before that - Henckels, Kissing Crane, Camillus, Schrade. Not to mention that I am not sure anything is coming out of Olbertz either; so mark out Bulldog, Fight'n Rooster, Eye Brand. You can still buy some of the brands that were sold, but it is not your daddy's knife.

I don't think we are destined to lose any immediately; but all it will take is one downturn in expendable spending. Most would probably classify me a pessimist, but I try and keep an eye on the horizon in order to be prepared for various scenarios. Ontario didn't sell Queen because it was making money hand over fist. Case hasn't had all their layoffs because they are just so productive. Most people would not buy 2-3 knives a month if they didn't have expendable income; and most factories would burn through their bank account in a matter of months if the buyers turned off.

They may be making buggy whips and dot matrix printers, but I guarantee they are not selling them at the same price point they sold when there was competition. And they are probably made in the factory right next door to the new Kissing Crane knives.
 
Mike, if you dwell on it, you're being pessimistic. Being prepared, no problem with that.

Derrick, I believe the custom slipjoint makers will always be there because their core group of customers will be there. They may have less play $ but they will be there to buy custom knives. Someone that could afford an expensive triple or quadruple digit folder will still be able to get that, presumably, in a recession. Just not several that year ;).
 
knifeswapper said:
When a factory can't make a knife that both they and the distribution channel can make a profit on; they stop making it. I don't understand why it surprises some that there would be talk of our knife factories going out of business in a decade of more knife factories going out of business than probably any other in history. Brands that factories could no longer justify making in the last few years that had been around for more than a generation before that - Henckels, Kissing Crane, Camillus, Schrade.
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One of my earlier passions were pistols. Looks to me just like the knife industry now. When I acquired one of the last hand fitted and assembled Colt Pythons years ago, there were in huge demand. But just a couple of years later, they quit making them. At a Colt booth at a large regional gun show, the rep from Colt told me they quit making them because they couldn't support the price point as they didn't sell enough of them, and also because they didn't have the craftsmen to turn out the product they wanted. Colt made a lot of models of guns then from some wheel guns like the Python, Diamondback, and all things in between. Reading their own history on their own website, I had no idea it was a constant struggle to just hang on. Then the announcement... no more handguns for the foreseeable future. I was shocked. Colt? The gun that tamed the west, defended our country, and was carried by millions across the world?

As of now, they are producing under the latest management investment group of two revolvers. Just two, fine specimens of guns, but they only make what they can sell. No one I know owns one. And heck, I live in Texas. I don't even see them at the gun shows.

knifeswapper said:
I don't think we are destined to lose any immediately; but all it will take is one downturn in expendable spending. Most would probably classify me a pessimist, but I try and keep an eye on the horizon in order to be prepared for various scenarios. Ontario didn't sell Queen because it was making money hand over fist. Case hasn't had all their layoffs because they are just so productive. Most people would not buy 2-3 knives a month if they didn't have expendable income; and most factories would burn through their bank account in a matter of months if the buyers turned off.
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Wow... great insight there. As for all of us that are still struggling in this economy, you can imagine where my contracting business went when the economy crashed with the new administration. Hard for me to sell a new bathroom for $10K or a kitchen for $30K when one spouse has lost their job or they are currently "underemployed". With all the payments we all make along with kids in college, a new tub and tile look like frivolous expenses. My work is now almost exclusively repair work. And even then, my middle class clientele usually do only the minimum to get things back to snuff.

knifeswapper said:
They may be making buggy whips and dot matrix printers, but I guarantee they are not selling them at the same price point they sold when there was competition. And they are probably made in the factory right next door to the new Kissing Crane knives.
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For the general public, the nostalgia for some things just isn't as strong as it is for fans of certain things. I carry some modern knives made as I like to say "out of a pile of screwed together pieces". I like these knives for their utility value. But I love some of my old traditionals. I still buy them from you, Mike.

Again, look at the gun (pistol) industry. It is completely dominated by composite made semi automatics, many made off shore. Wheel guns? Too old school for today's shooters. A couple of my older revolvers have actually dropped in value due to lack of interest by the pistol community.

Hopefully, while it won't happen soon I think the traditional pocket knives will go the way of the pistol industry. It will be a sad (awful?) day indeed, and make my small collection all the more valuable to me.

An excellent post, Mike. I have to say too, you are one of the most knowledgeable, plugged in guys I have ever talked to that is in the industry.

Robert
 
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knifeswapper said:
They may be making buggy whips and dot matrix printers, but I guarantee they are not selling them at the same price point they sold when there was competition. And they are probably made in the factory right next door to the new Kissing Crane knives.
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That is exactly right! Check out the price of a dot matrix printer...they are outrageous because no one makes them any more! :)
 
jc57 said:
Mike, to one of your points about our expectations at the prices we are willing to pay.

I see a number of posts from people who don't like to risk buying a Case knife without inspecting them in person first. I personally buy plenty of Case and other brand knives over the Internet. Here recently I haven't paid more than $30 for a new Case knife. Of 5 factory new Case knives that I have received in the past few weeks, two were outstanding, two were in line with my expectations, and one had a few flaws. I am happy with all of them, including the flawed one, and most have already or will soon find their way into my pocket.

I mean $30. That's four meals at McDonald's. Or half a tank of gas. Both of which will be waste material by the end of the week, while that Case knife will last your entire life.

I've got maybe 70 Case knives, many purchased new, some new old stock, some used, some gifted, and really for their price point all are excellent tools. Sure there's some variation in quality control. Sure, I think they could do a better job on consistency of bone dyeing. But I've never had one that I thought needed to be sent back to the factory. Out of 70, zero returns so far.

I've purchased a few GEC knives as well and while certainly beautifully made knives, a couple of those have some imperfections as well. They are not the pinnacle of perfection that their reputation makes out. So far the best fit and finish out of the box in my experience has been Victorinox and Buck. But I realize they aren't exactly what people are looking for in 'traditional' knives because they are too utilitarian and actually designed to be good tools first with appearance and appeal to nostalgia either a lower or no priority.

I find it oddly incongruous that we frequently ooh and aah over some knife that looks like it was dug up out of someone's back yard with blades that look like no one ever even tried to maintain them at all, and yet in the next breath we expect a $40 knife to be a masterpiece of individual craftsmanship with tolerances that only a robot or many hours of effort could have produced.

Our exalted forebears, unless they were knife collectors, likely bought a knife off a hardware store display or sporting goods store without a second look, and I pretty much bet they didn't really pay that much attention to the brand. The reason they bought a Schrade, Case , or Buck is because that's what the local store happened to sell. I doubt that many of them looked for spring gaps or vertical blade play. If they did notice such things they would vote with their wallet next time they bought a knife and maybe pass it on to one or two friends that they didn't care for brand X. Nowadays that one negative customer experience gets broadcast to the whole world via web forums and now suddenly brand X is known for making bad products.

I agree with Mike that the US traditional knife making business, like many other US manufacturing businesses, is going to have a tough time surviving. I actually think it is doomed no matter what they do based on the demographic trends coming up. Let's face it. Knife collectors are predominantly old American men. There are exceptions of course, but they are overwhelmed by the majority. And what are all those old men going to be doing pretty soon? Dying. That will put an ever increasing supply of knife collections into the market with an ever dwindling number of people interested in buying them.

Manufacturers will have a tough time selling new knives into that market, and they'll be competing with the constant flood of inexpensive knives being made in whatever country has the lowest cost of labor at that particular moment.

So if you enjoy well made US traditional pocket knives, enjoy them while you can. We are likely one more recession away from them going away.
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Very well said. I think we can all learn from this.

The only thing that I don't want to happen is that companies like Case start slacking on their quality control just to keep up with knives made in China. That is a lose / lose for everyone.
 
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