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Queen Cutlery, ongoing history....
- Thread starter PocketKnifeJimmy
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This thread is offering alot of interesting insights, and Mike's post is very thought-provoking. I will try to share some thoughts as well.
I agree that 100 years ago things were very different. Knives were just tools, and cosmetic flaws were never an issue. A man had one knife, and the only thing that mattered was that the knife could cut, and didn't break apart. A chip in the horn handles, or a color mismatch, was just something that most people wouldn't even notice.
Nowadays, knives have become something different. On one side, they're still used as tools, and the ones used as tools still obey to the same 100 y.o. rules...but they're not the same knives. Most knives that are used are tools are box cutters with replaceable blades, or inexpensive modern folders, or (in the high end of the range) SAK's or Spyderco/Kershaw/Ontario one-handers. Why? because they cut, they're relatively cheap, they're consistent, and they get the job done. Box cutters also spare the users from the trouble of sharpening (and getting the proper skill for it). Aside from a bunch of us, who like a certain style of knives (with natural materials, old school patterns, and some style), slipjoints have a very tiny part of the users market, and that is not going to change drastically any soon.
On the other side, slipjoints and such have entered a "new" market (which did not really exist 100 years ago), of people that like knives (and use them), and can afford to buy knives like Queen, GEC, and so on. This is us (on average, of course).
This is the reason why we are picky about knives: they're not just tools for us, they're something more, and that's why we demand for "perfection" (or rather, high quality). But clearly we should be prepared to pay for it, and factories struggle with this market, and either they give up on natural materials and old style knifemaking (like Buck), or on pattern variety (Canal Street), or on sharpening and QC (Queen, GEC), or they just keep their price up (Laguiole's, for example).
One thing is demanding for the best possible quality at a certain price point, another thing is wanting everything at a low price point, and with old equipment to make those knives fully traditional...which is probably (as Mike pointed out) a bit beyond the reality of the companies' business.
If we want all that, we should probably be ready to pay a little more for it, and keep our expectations up.
Or, decide that certain flaws (especially cosmetic flaws) are just a part of the game and get back to our ancestors' point of view.
As for me, if I used knives in my job, I would certainly belong to the second group...but I use my knives casually, buy very few of them, so I like to choose them carefully, and I'm ready to pay for it, as long as the factories fulfill my "standards".
Fausto
I agree that 100 years ago things were very different. Knives were just tools, and cosmetic flaws were never an issue. A man had one knife, and the only thing that mattered was that the knife could cut, and didn't break apart. A chip in the horn handles, or a color mismatch, was just something that most people wouldn't even notice.
Nowadays, knives have become something different. On one side, they're still used as tools, and the ones used as tools still obey to the same 100 y.o. rules...but they're not the same knives. Most knives that are used are tools are box cutters with replaceable blades, or inexpensive modern folders, or (in the high end of the range) SAK's or Spyderco/Kershaw/Ontario one-handers. Why? because they cut, they're relatively cheap, they're consistent, and they get the job done. Box cutters also spare the users from the trouble of sharpening (and getting the proper skill for it). Aside from a bunch of us, who like a certain style of knives (with natural materials, old school patterns, and some style), slipjoints have a very tiny part of the users market, and that is not going to change drastically any soon.
On the other side, slipjoints and such have entered a "new" market (which did not really exist 100 years ago), of people that like knives (and use them), and can afford to buy knives like Queen, GEC, and so on. This is us (on average, of course).
This is the reason why we are picky about knives: they're not just tools for us, they're something more, and that's why we demand for "perfection" (or rather, high quality). But clearly we should be prepared to pay for it, and factories struggle with this market, and either they give up on natural materials and old style knifemaking (like Buck), or on pattern variety (Canal Street), or on sharpening and QC (Queen, GEC), or they just keep their price up (Laguiole's, for example).
One thing is demanding for the best possible quality at a certain price point, another thing is wanting everything at a low price point, and with old equipment to make those knives fully traditional...which is probably (as Mike pointed out) a bit beyond the reality of the companies' business.
If we want all that, we should probably be ready to pay a little more for it, and keep our expectations up.
Or, decide that certain flaws (especially cosmetic flaws) are just a part of the game and get back to our ancestors' point of view.
As for me, if I used knives in my job, I would certainly belong to the second group...but I use my knives casually, buy very few of them, so I like to choose them carefully, and I'm ready to pay for it, as long as the factories fulfill my "standards".
Fausto
There are valid reasons Victorinox is so successful, and those reasons start with modernized automated manufacturing processes with great QC. Something for which Americans historically always seem to be behind others and where American sometimes rush to catch up but only as a survival reflex --- whether it be knives or automobiles or any number of other markets. More and more the Americans just go under either losing their last minute fight for survival or not even attempting a last fight for survival.
Imagine Case or Queen or GEC bringing a Vic Tinker to market from their extant factories and processes. What would the end consumer cost be? Imaging the consistency of the product. That's the very reason my latest knife purchases have been Victorinox and why Vic SAKs will be what I give as gifts this Christmas. Of course they are not perfect, but they are consistently a quality product, that I can count providing great value for my money. More automation and modern manufacturing is not a bad thing especially if you want to survive in a market demanding consistent quality at a fair consumer price.
Imagine Case or Queen or GEC bringing a Vic Tinker to market from their extant factories and processes. What would the end consumer cost be? Imaging the consistency of the product. That's the very reason my latest knife purchases have been Victorinox and why Vic SAKs will be what I give as gifts this Christmas. Of course they are not perfect, but they are consistently a quality product, that I can count providing great value for my money. More automation and modern manufacturing is not a bad thing especially if you want to survive in a market demanding consistent quality at a fair consumer price.
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Fact of the matter is, all the knife companies have to make products that people want and are willing to pay their money for. That may mean that they produce knives in more modern means. They do have to strive to make a better fit knife. I can get a pretty nice knife for $10 that is made in China. Case, Queen, and GEC HAVE to compete with that.
Victorinox makes an excellent, consistent knife for not very much money.
I read this thread and see a bunch of "doom and gloom" about how the US cutlery industry is failing. I don't see that. We have a fairly new company making knives (GEC), a couple of survivors (Case, Queen), one who had risen from the ashes (Canal Street), and a bunch of Custom makers who are doing this full time.
Want to make things better? Promote the use of traditional pocket knives outside of knife oriented forums. Start a "do you carry a pocket knife" thread (and of course post pretty pictures of your knives), give traditionals as gifts to those who don't carry a pocket knife or those who carry something modern.
Modern knives are seen as useful and cool. Promote the traditional as such.
Victorinox makes an excellent, consistent knife for not very much money.
I read this thread and see a bunch of "doom and gloom" about how the US cutlery industry is failing. I don't see that. We have a fairly new company making knives (GEC), a couple of survivors (Case, Queen), one who had risen from the ashes (Canal Street), and a bunch of Custom makers who are doing this full time.
Want to make things better? Promote the use of traditional pocket knives outside of knife oriented forums. Start a "do you carry a pocket knife" thread (and of course post pretty pictures of your knives), give traditionals as gifts to those who don't carry a pocket knife or those who carry something modern.
Modern knives are seen as useful and cool. Promote the traditional as such.
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A lot of the charm of traditionals is that they are outmoded and made on obsolete equipment. Collecting is sort of a post-mortem on the traditional knife.
A lot of the reason that I like GEC and Queen more than Case is that the former have "soul" - a sense of human work and care (and yes, imperfection). You can feel the coldness of automation in a Case knife. And as far as Victorinox, as perfect as they are, they may as well have been air-dropped onto our planet by extra-terrestrial for all their lack of human feeling.
All said, I'll take an older knife with all its flaws over a new knife no matter where or how it is made.
Back to the original point, I do appreciate that Queen and Case have kept the company names alive - but what is in a name? What does Case's current means of production (whether we are talking machinery or personnel) have in common with Case of 30 years ago even? Not much, I reckon. GEC, though a new name (sort of) is truer to the spirit old knife companies we appreciate.
A lot of the reason that I like GEC and Queen more than Case is that the former have "soul" - a sense of human work and care (and yes, imperfection). You can feel the coldness of automation in a Case knife. And as far as Victorinox, as perfect as they are, they may as well have been air-dropped onto our planet by extra-terrestrial for all their lack of human feeling.
All said, I'll take an older knife with all its flaws over a new knife no matter where or how it is made.
Back to the original point, I do appreciate that Queen and Case have kept the company names alive - but what is in a name? What does Case's current means of production (whether we are talking machinery or personnel) have in common with Case of 30 years ago even? Not much, I reckon. GEC, though a new name (sort of) is truer to the spirit old knife companies we appreciate.
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Honestly, I think you can find a traditional to do anything a modern folder can (short of a leatherman, or a folding defensive knife)..... and it will look better doing it.
I also think that Case knives have soul.... well at least some of them.
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Case is obviously using some modern machinery.... BUT... I know they are continual.. simply changing with the times.... they put onboard new stuff as new stuff can be added. It does cut out some of that old school feel to them.. but they are history that continues and lives to make a little bit more history... so I include them in my collecting. GEC is awesome for the quality and the traditional making of knives, but obviously lacks the long history behind them.. still a great company and great products. As for Queen..... I love their overall combination of nice quality, use of different blade steels, made in USA, traditional methods of manufacture, and the history of the company.... them being one of the last DoDo birds. All that may not be what you look for, just saying it's what keeps me most interested. All good, of course, whatever your wants may be 
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On a related note.. Beretta has been in business for something like 500 years. They obviously are continual, not just in business, but with keeping up with technology. If they were the type to not change with the times and demands, they would have gone DoDo long ago. Case, one of the oldest remaining knife company names, still hangs on. They figured they would offer to the user and collector. They would keep product cost down so they could survive by adding new technologies, while still keeping some traditional methods to keep that blending of both. Don't believe they did wrong, or they too would have went DoDo, as most US cutleries have. So, it may be that the writing is on the wall. We are the few last buyers, and these remaining firms are the last makers. I guess no matter what, a demise of this industry is likely in the US... but for now, they try to keep us happy, and us them. Darn, you all are getting old! lol! ;-) My going to be 48 this year, and it really is amazing on how fast pace the world changes now. Let's face it... these companies and us buyers, are DoDo, and don't even know it! LOL! ;-) In the meantime... I will enjoy admiring my displaying of my traditional knives...... all good, my friends
Are the new owners of queen making any of their standard product line yet? If so are there any way to tell them apart from the older ones that are already on the market. I like some of the queen patterns and the D2 steel but have had QC issues and poor edges with the ones that I have had. I would like to try one from the new owners if they have made any yet. I hope they change something so that we will no they are made from the new owners and not have to take the chance of getting an old one that is not up to par.
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I would like to widen a bit the topic of this thread, if Jimmy agrees.
Does is matter to you how the knife is made, and how much history is there behind a name?
For the latter, it seems that brand history can be an added value, but not a main factor. GEC is recent and gets much love around, while old names who changed their politics seem to be getting little love (Schrade, for example).
As for how a knife is made...how much do you really care? Or does the final product win in the end? If (hypothetically) Queen or GEC shifted to modern equipment and knifemaking, but delivered a more consistent product (same pattern, materials and so on), would you prefer it? and, would you be willing to pay a little more for it? is the "old school feeling" so deeply linked with how a knife is made, or it's rather a matter of how a knife actually is? SAK's might look alien and cold...but what about Opinel's? They're made with new equipment, but they keep their human feeling (at least in my opinion).
It seems that every brand/company has picked a different way to survive in traditional cutlery...are they all struggling the same way?
Finally, I agree with Woodrow: marketing (in the full sense of the world) matters alot. And history has showed us how a good marketing strategy can create a demand for a product. Maybe there is some potential space for slipjoints to be sold to a wider audience.
Fausto
Does is matter to you how the knife is made, and how much history is there behind a name?
For the latter, it seems that brand history can be an added value, but not a main factor. GEC is recent and gets much love around, while old names who changed their politics seem to be getting little love (Schrade, for example).
As for how a knife is made...how much do you really care? Or does the final product win in the end? If (hypothetically) Queen or GEC shifted to modern equipment and knifemaking, but delivered a more consistent product (same pattern, materials and so on), would you prefer it? and, would you be willing to pay a little more for it? is the "old school feeling" so deeply linked with how a knife is made, or it's rather a matter of how a knife actually is? SAK's might look alien and cold...but what about Opinel's? They're made with new equipment, but they keep their human feeling (at least in my opinion).
It seems that every brand/company has picked a different way to survive in traditional cutlery...are they all struggling the same way?
Finally, I agree with Woodrow: marketing (in the full sense of the world) matters alot. And history has showed us how a good marketing strategy can create a demand for a product. Maybe there is some potential space for slipjoints to be sold to a wider audience.
Fausto
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I guess for me it having to be a traditional pattern or styling, that is most important.... then comes it being of decent quality... then method of manufacturing (prefering the more hands on old school methods)... then my preference in it being American made.... and then comes history of the firm making it. Probably why I have different makes.... some have more of this than that, but that list is pretty much my checklist Ymmv.... this is only my wants in buying my knives
Ymmv.... this is only my wants in buying my knives
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I don't see how anyone reaches this conclusion. If there weren't some interest in traditional knives, GEC wouldn't have been able to start up, Queen wouldn't have been purchased in order to keep doing what they were doing. Canal Street wouldn't have risen from the ashes of Schrade, ..... There's a bunch of custom knife makers too.
The size of the industry may need to readjust, but as long as there is interest, there will be options.
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I agree. The more disposable our culture becomes the more interest there is in lasting artisanal goods. The people that care about such things are willing to pay a higher premium. We see this in the resurgence of denim jeans made on rescued shuttle looms and stitched on period machines. American shoe and boot manufacturers like Alden, Quoddy, Red Wing, Danner, Russell Moccasin. Makers of repro flight jackets (Lost Worlds, Aero, Eastman, etc). As mentioned, there's a huge interest in mechanical watches. Fountain pens. You could go on forever.
Nostalgia won't go away.
Nostalgia won't go away.
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I could be very wrong, my friend. It is only my opinion. Since I do not have a crystal ball, I do not know for sure. As we die off, are these companies going to be able to continue?... I don't know. But, if one looks at the trend, we now have about 7 actual makers of traditional pocket knives in the US.... that is down from likely hundreds in it's heyday.... so it does not look promising. This is all just speculation... which is all we can do, since nobody knows for sure. My guess is that these companies will eventually diversify to concentrate on more in the mainstream cutlery, or move overseas, or even go out of business. Just my opinion
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It sure won't.
I guess it's just a matter of channeling knife production towards nostalgic buyers on one side.
And convincing others that for many people's use a slipjoint can cut better and look classier than any modern folder.
And bringing back the old habit of carrying a pocket knife. Not for looking cool, not for supposed self defense, just because it's a handy tool.
In all this journey, Queen has history behind them, and that could be an added value, if they manage to keep the other things fine.
Fausto
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Nolstalgia will live on, I agree... but the masses will settle for cheaper imports... leaving the custom world for those that can afford them. I myself have a nice pair of Red Wing Engineer boots... mine are made in the US.... but the new ones are made in China. Again, though I do see a little reshoring of products, most still go the other way when change is being made to increase the bottom line. And though China is starting to cost more money in doing business in, many companies are just looking for other chinas.... cheap labor, low to no government controls and such. Denim is still comfortable and nolstalgic... but Levis are made offshore.... the list can go on and on with examples. As we die off, more of the "who cares where it is made" crowd will take over. New world economy, they call it.
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Yeah, I guess we got a wee bit side tracked... sorry ;-) This was supposed to be about Queen Cutlery being an ongoing history with their continual making of traditional pocket knives.... and now again under new ownership... Hoping and wishing for them to continue on Their using a pinned in shield on a Queen Classic I purchased a few months ago, may give us a hint of the little things they may be planning to keep these wares traditional Long live the Queen! LOL!
Their using a pinned in shield on a Queen Classic I purchased a few months ago, may give us a hint of the little things they may be planning to keep these wares traditional Long live the Queen! LOL! It be interesting to know the average age of those buying GEC and Queen and Canal Street.