Question About Wavy or Crinkled Pattern in Blade

M

MastaSlice

Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
10
Got a Chinese knockoff of the Shirogorov Tarbargan in the mail a bit ago. Quite happy with it for a $20 knife. Good design, good execution by the Chinese mfgr.

But I was looking at the blade wondering if it is indeed D2. When the light hits it right there is a crinkly pattern either under or over (Think it must be over) the cross-blade grind marks. On one side there is what looks like a series of "Y" shaped dentrites from ricasso to tip, and on the other just a damascus-type wave look.

What is this? Crinkling caused by tempering of the blade after grinding? Before grinding? Is the blade formed of scrap metal not completely fused together?

Never noticed this before in a knife blade.
 
MastaSlice said:
Got a Chinese knockoff of the Shirogorov Tarbargan in the mail a bit ago. Quite happy with it for a $20 knife. Good design, good execution by the Chinese mfgr.

But I was looking at the blade wondering if it is indeed D2. When the light hits it right there is a crinkly pattern either under or over (Think it must be over) the cross-blade grind marks. On one side there is what looks like a series of "Y" shaped dentrites from ricasso to tip, and on the other just a damascus-type wave look.

What is this? Crinkling caused by tempering of the blade after grinding? Before grinding? Is the blade formed of scrap metal not completely fused together?

Never noticed this before in a knife blade.
Click to expand...

Ugh.

You get what you pay for. Don't support counterfeiting.....
 
Does it look similar to the way a piece of galvanized tin looks? Or have you had a stone washed blade before? To me some stone washed blades almost look like the pattern galvanized metal has but less pronounced.

Or does it look like the actual metal is not straight?

Edit: also what was said above. I forgot to mention you shouldn't support thieves. I'm not sure if Shirogorov are exactly completely honest with manufacturing methods but at least they are original designs. But if the company is stealing their designs they are stealing anyone else's also
 
Last edited:
Craytab, I feel guilty. A little. At least the original was Russian. And I bought from a non-dealer (maybe). Wouldn't buy a knock-off Spyderco. (Not to my credit; I think Spydercos are ugly and when one buys a fake, they get an ugly knife without the quality.)

FlaMtnBkr, the blade is a beautiful flat grind. Ruler straight. First thing you'd notice is the grinding marks. But holding the blade just right and getting a reflection off the blade, the crinkly marks are visible, as though the grinding didn't take them out or that they originated after the grinding.

I'm wondering what this tells us about the process used to make the blade.

Gonna try to take a pic under a low power microscope.
 
MastaSlice said:
Craytab, I feel guilty. A little.
Click to expand...

That is the first step to not making the same mistaken again. If you stick around you will see lots of criticism for those who support counterfeiting. It is even outlined in the rules here. Supporting theft hurts legit manufacturers/makers/companies, this hobby, and thus this forum. Spend the same money to buy a real knife from a legit company. There is plenty of quality to be had in the ~$30 range.
 
craytab said:
There is plenty of quality to be had in the ~$30 range.
Click to expand...

Yea, but other people will know it is a $30 knife.
Why buy the real one when you can get people to think you paid more?

Wait... dishonesty begets dishonesty.
Don't support counterfeiters/thieves/liars/other various trash...

If they aren't honest with the folks they steal designs from, why would you think they would be honest with you?

They literally stole the design for profit, and it is You they are looking to profit from. They are defrauding one person and using the product to defraud another.
- Why would they think higher of you?
- If there is an issue, how would you expect the customer service rep to handle this?
- Do you expect there to be a customer service rep worked into the cost of the knife?
- Would you trust them again if they already did wrong by you once?
You are their target, not their customer.
 
NJBillK said:
Yea, but other people will know it is a $30 knife.
Why buy the real one when you can get people to think you paid more?

Wait... dishonesty begets dishonesty.
Don't support counterfeiters/thieves/liars/other various trash...

If they aren't honest with the folks they steal designs from, why would you think they would be honest with you?

They literally stole the design for profit, and it is You they are looking to profit from. They are defrauding one person and using the product to defraud another.
- Why would they think higher of you?
- If there is an issue, how would you expect the customer service rep to handle this?
- Do you expect there to be a customer service rep worked into the cost of the knife?
- Would you trust them again if they already did wrong by you once?
You are their target, not their customer.
Click to expand...

Well, wanna buy a Tabargan? Try https://www.amazon.com/Shirogorov-tabargan-outdoors-Survival-Tactical/dp/B010K2OXMS "Currently unavailable." Or try eBay. There are currently two seeming originals from the Russian Federation for $871 and $1044, plus shipping, that have fancier steel than D2. Dozens of fakes on eBay and two over-priced maybe-originals.

I don't give a damn what someone else thinks of this knife. Good ergonomics, right size, functions. I prefer it to the Avispa I was thinking about at $40. So my buying this cost the company that makes -- or made -- the Tabargan zero on their margin.

Of course, others before me buying Chinese fakes may have driven this model out of the market. Plus by not boycotting second hand fakes I am adding to the problem to a small degree.

It's a cut throat industry, with "borrowing" of designs all the time, by "reputable" manufacturers and designers. Was Shirogorov licensed to use the Axis lock? Could that be a reason why the Tabargan is not retailed in the USA?

Back to the original question. Here is a pic taken with a 55mm f/3.5 Nikkor micro & polarizing filter. Lens from the early 1970s btw.
DSC_2224_zpssuzzfzy6.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

This is actually far harder to see than it looks in the photo. I brought that out with 5 minutes of computer processing.
 
Last edited:
MastaSlice said:
Got a Chinese knockoff of the Shirogorov Tarbargan in the mail a bit ago. Quite happy with it for a $20 knife. Good design, good execution by the Chinese mfgr.

But I was looking at the blade wondering if it is indeed D2. When the light hits it right there is a crinkly pattern either under or over (Think it must be over) the cross-blade grind marks. On one side there is what looks like a series of "Y" shaped dentrites from ricasso to tip, and on the other just a damascus-type wave look.

What is this? Crinkling caused by tempering of the blade after grinding? Before grinding? Is the blade formed of scrap metal not completely fused together?

Never noticed this before in a knife blade.
Click to expand...

That is known as alloy banding. Its common in some d2 steels and their equivalents. Though in that particular knife it is an equivalent. Many sellers say d2 because it is easier to type and people understand what d2 is. Now just how close of an equivalent? No one really knows. I have had knives with that steel and i didnt have any chipoing or rolling issues.
 
NJBillK said:
Yea, but other people will know it is a $30 knife.
Why buy the real one when you can get people to think you paid more?

Wait... dishonesty begets dishonesty.
Don't support counterfeiters/thieves/liars/other various trash...

If they aren't honest with the folks they steal designs from, why would you think they would be honest with you?

They literally stole the design for profit, and it is You they are looking to profit from. They are defrauding one person and using the product to defraud another.
- Why would they think higher of you?
- If there is an issue, how would you expect the customer service rep to handle this?
- Do you expect there to be a customer service rep worked into the cost of the knife?
- Would you trust them again if they already did wrong by you once?
You are their target, not their customer.
Click to expand...

Yeah but then you could also say that about shirogorov for stealing the axis lock and using it in the very knife he bought a clone of.
 
Counterfeiters and those who support them are what I like to call scumbags... nough said
 
Did you use a REAL Nikkor lens? Or was it a counterfeit?
I highly doubt a fake Nikkor takes as good a picture as the real thing. Especially one labeled to fool people into thinking it's the real thing. Right?

So why on earth do you think it's possible that POS has a real D2 blade?
 
I read somewhere that Shirogorov was licensed by Benchmade to use the Axis lock. But considering the popularity of this model in the USA, why aren't more available? [political comment removed]

Btw, I am thinking about buying a Kizylar model that is not much available. Presumably original. Some good Russian designs out there.

Thanks, PurpleEDC. And everybody else. I'll look up more about alloy banding.
 
Last edited:
Never used a bad Chinese blade. Even $1 Frosts were usable. Can't say the same for Pakistani steels. Can't say that of a Schrade-Imperial work knife I have.

I feared this one would be 420 stainless. Doesn't look or feel like it. Time will tell.

NorthernSouthpaw, I am not aware of counterfeit lenses or cameras except for those slr looking things advertised as "Cannon" or "Olympia" for $5 on eBay.
I suspect this "clone" or fake will perform at 90% the level of the original, and it doesn't have to be kept in a vault.

PS. It eases my conscience to imagine Putin is an investor in the knife company.
 
Last edited:
Oh Boy... here we go again, but to your question. Looks like Purple DC nailed it. The problem with these class of Chinese knives is that there is no responsible party to warrant them and guarantee the materials used.
 
A follow-up. As I was about to close the browser window I looked at the Amazon listing for the Tabargan more closely. Quote:

"is_customized : Yes
Application : Utility Knife
Brand Name : shirogorov brothers
DIY Supplies : Metalworking
Model Number : Shirogorov tabargan
Type : Folding Blade Knife
Handle Material : G10
Blade Material : D2
I made this High copy Shirogorov tabargan axis system folding knife,100% real D2,not 9Cr18MoV!!!Maybe it is the highest performance cost ratio knife in China,this time,all with Shirogorov official logo!!! We make some improvements,make it more near the Real Shirogorov Tabargan.Product DescriptionOverall Length: 225 mmBlade length: 95mmClosed length: 127mmBlade thickness: 4mmBlade Finish: Satin PolishedWeight: 175g Blade material:100% real D2(vacuum heat-treatment,We welcome you to test)Handle material: orange, black ,red G10(Which color you like,you can message me.)Hardness:61HRC"

The Amazon listing was for a Chinese "clone"!
 
MastaSlice said:
Well, wanna buy a Tabargan? Try https://www.amazon.com/Shirogorov-tabargan-outdoors-Survival-Tactical/dp/B010K2OXMS "Currently unavailable." Or try eBay. There are currently two seeming originals from the Russian Federation for $871 and $1044, plus shipping, that have fancier steel than D2. Dozens of fakes on eBay and two over-priced maybe-originals.

I don't give a damn what someone else thinks of this knife. Good ergonomics, right size, functions. I prefer it to the Avispa I was thinking about at $40. So my buying this cost the company that makes -- or made -- the Tabargan zero on their margin.

Of course, others before me buying Chinese fakes may have driven this model out of the market. Plus by not boycotting second hand fakes I am adding to the problem to a small degree.

It's a cut throat industry, with "borrowing" of designs all the time, by "reputable" manufacturers and designers. Was Shirogorov licensed to use the Axis lock? Could that be a reason why the Tabargan is not retailed in the USA?
Click to expand...

First I had to get rid of that pic. Whew!

The quoted text can serve as a paradigm for pretzel logic. And the thing about the AXIS lock? Most over-discussed/under-informed Shirogorov topic ever. Lots of conjecture has been raised over the years on that by people with little knowledge of patents or licensing and no factual information. Does anyone other than the designers, Benchmade, or Shirogorov really know? Of course, if Shirogorov "stole" the AXIS lock that makes it perfectly fine to buy a cheap knock-off their original knife.

Damn, I hate these threads. Why am I even posting in it?
 
ChazzyP said:
First I had to get rid of that pic. Whew!

The quoted text can serve as a paradigm for pretzel logic. And the thing about the AXIS lock? Most over-discussed/under-informed Shirogorov topic ever. Lots of conjecture has been raised over the years on that by people with little knowledge of patents or licensing and no factual information. Does anyone other than the designers, Benchmade, or Shirogorov really know? Of course, if Shirogorov "stole" the AXIS lock that makes it perfectly fine to buy a cheap knock-off their original knife.

Damn, I hate these threads. Why am I even posting in it?
Click to expand...
What he said
 
More on alloy banding. Produced by repeated heating and cooling around the critical temperature, i.e., by not carefully controlling temp. https://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=21216 Considered undesirable in that it may weaken a blade, especially a thin one. May be more characteristic of certain steel suppliers or knife makers.

There's a thread or two on top here about breakage. One wonders if the alloy banding contributed to blade failure, and if coating knives could be used to hide flaws otherwise evident on the surface.

As for counterfeiting, "borrowing" of designs and so on, we all borrow to a degree. There's a piece of music in a TV commercial that makes me think of a song every time I hear it. In music, it seems okay [or unavoidable] to have 2-4 notes the same as another melody as long as you vary the rest of it.

We borrow words, expressions; plagiarism is when you borrow enough so the borrowing can be pinned down to specifics. Lawyers plagiarize forms and pleadings all the time.

How many patents are there on the shape of a knife blade, on the finger cut-outs for a folder, on the concept of a liner or frame lock, on the concept of checkering on the scales? Lot of this knife stuff is new, not enough time for patents to expire.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top