Question About Wavy or Crinkled Pattern in Blade

[trevitrace]

Scummy.

 

[Mecha]

Well, wanna buy a Tabargan? Try https://www.amazon.com/Shirogorov-tabargan-outdoors-Survival-Tactical/dp/B010K2OXMS "Currently unavailable." Or try eBay. There are currently two seeming originals from the Russian Federation for $871 and $1044, plus shipping, that have fancier steel than D2. Dozens of fakes on eBay and two over-priced maybe-originals.

I don't give a damn what someone else thinks of this knife. Good ergonomics, right size, functions. I prefer it to the Avispa I was thinking about at $40. So my buying this cost the company that makes -- or made -- the Tabargan zero on their margin.

Of course, others before me buying Chinese fakes may have driven this model out of the market. Plus by not boycotting second hand fakes I am adding to the problem to a small degree.

It's a cut throat industry, with "borrowing" of designs all the time, by "reputable" manufacturers and designers. Was Shirogorov licensed to use the Axis lock? Could that be a reason why the Tabargan is not retailed in the USA?

Back to the original question. Here is a pic taken with a 55mm f/3.5 Nikkor micro & polarizing filter. Lens from the early 1970s btw.

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This is actually far harder to see than it looks in the photo. I brought that out with 5 minutes of computer processing.

HAHAHA! It even has the bear face logo! :thumbdn:

 

[craytab]

More on alloy banding. Produced by repeated heating and cooling around the critical temperature, i.e., by not carefully controlling temp. https://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=21216 Considered undesirable in that it may weaken a blade, especially a thin one. May be more characteristic of certain steel suppliers or knife makers.

There's a thread or two on top here about breakage. One wonders if the alloy banding contributed to blade failure, and if coating knives could be used to hide flaws otherwise evident on the surface.

As for counterfeiting, "borrowing" of designs and so on, we all borrow to a degree. There's a piece of music in a TV commercial that makes me think of a song every time I hear it. In music, it seems okay [or unavoidable] to have 2-4 notes the same as another melody as long as you vary the rest of it.

We borrow words, expressions; plagiarism is when you borrow enough so the borrowing can be pinned down to specifics. Lawyers plagiarize forms and pleadings all the time.

How many patents are there on the shape of a knife blade, on the finger cut-outs for a folder, on the concept of a liner or frame lock, on the concept of checkering on the scales? Lot of this knife stuff is new, not enough time for patents to expire.

Dude. You are supporting counterfeiting. No one cares about your knife.

 

[Ratman79]

Here is my recommendation to the OP, FWIW: Save up! It may take a little while but put a little from each paycheck away for the "Shiro fund." They are really nice knives. Everyone I have spoken to who owns one is extremely pleased. I know they're pricey. I'd like one too but can't afford it right now. I am taking 150-200 bucks from each monthly paycheck and putting it aside. It may take some time but the satisfaction of accomplishing my goal will have been worth the wait

Counterfeits are always a poor choice and never compare to the original.

 

[ChazzyP]

...people with little knowledge of patents or licensing and no factual information.

How many patents are there on the shape of a knife blade, on the finger cut-outs for a folder, on the concept of a liner or frame lock, on the concept of checkering on the scales? Lot of this knife stuff is new, not enough time for patents to expire.

Need I repeat myself? :yawn:

Dude. You are supporting counterfeiting. No one cares about your knife.

...but that's worth repeating, Cray. :thumbup:

 

[Fanglekai]

You have a garbage knife made with mystery steel and a bad, cheap heat treatment. You could have bought a decent knife instead of a counterfeit.

 

[Velitrius]

Shirogoripov?

Or Notgudenov.

 

[G. Scott H.]

Or Notgudenov.

Maybe it's Klosenov for him?

 

[PURPLEDC]

First I had to get rid of that pic. Whew!

The quoted text can serve as a paradigm for pretzel logic. And the thing about the AXIS lock? Most over-discussed/under-informed Shirogorov topic ever. Lots of conjecture has been raised over the years on that by people with little knowledge of patents or licensing and no factual information. Does anyone other than the designers, Benchmade, or Shirogorov really know? Of course, if Shirogorov "stole" the AXIS lock that makes it perfectly fine to buy a cheap knock-off their original knife.

Damn, I hate these threads. Why am I even posting in it?

if you know different and know that shirogorov has permission to use that lock on a knife they dont market in the states i would love to hear it. Either way i highly doubt you would give ganzo the same "only benchmade" knows pass if a picture of that knife had been shown instead. No one hear is saying counterfeiting is ok. I was merely pointing out that if the forum consensus in regard to content is universal and applies to all then no company should get a pass and all should be scrutinized. I see people get down on others for a kevin john knife that isnt even a clone while in the next thread preaching the gospel of custom knife factory who utilizes kevin john as their source for manufacture.

So in essence my comment was not about saying that its ok because someone else did it. But rather that its hard to defend a company who they themselves may have borrowed a patented technology without permission. I would say most companies that are given permission to use the axis lock would call it an axis lock and make it clear they have permission as most companies with a license do. But to see that both shiro and lionsteel knives with an axix lock arent sold here it does point to not wanting it to even come into question.

Now this thread went this way because people could not answer a question but instead used it as a platform for the counterfeit topic. At the same time i realize its poor form to even try to post a topic like this. Plus to expect it WONT go that way is impossible. And i do feel that the question could have been asked without even revealing the knife in question. Regardless of my personal view of clones my only point is if we are going to make an issue of IP then no one should be immune. If we demand answers of china it should apply to russia, italy and any other country or brand found to be doing the same.

 

[MastaSlice]

You have a garbage knife made with mystery steel and a bad, cheap heat treatment. You could have bought a decent knife instead of a counterfeit.

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Back by popular demand is another pic.

1. That logo looks like a wolf to me, not a bear.

2. Wonder how many expensive boutique knives have similar flaws, especially those blades selected for a nitride or titanium coating. Maybe y'all ought to scrape off your coatings to check so's you can sleep nites.

3. Don't knock China. China is the repository of true capitalism and the spirit of private enterprise.

4. Isn't it surprising how little Amazon and eBay police their listings for "clones," "copies," and "replicas"? There's money to be made on all sides from the sale of these products. In fact, if Americans selling Chinese products suddenly lost their jobs, we'd head into a depression.

 

[trevitrace]

That "knife" looks terrible.

 

[PURPLEDC]

[/URL][/IMG]

Back by popular demand is another pic.

1. That logo looks like a wolf to me, not a bear.

2. Wonder how many expensive boutique knives have similar flaws, especially those blades selected for a nitride or titanium coating. Maybe y'all ought to scrape off your coatings to check so's you can sleep nites.

3. Don't knock China. China is the repository of true capitalism and the spirit of private enterprise.

4. Isn't it surprising how little Amazon and eBay police their listings for "clones," "copies," and "replicas"? There's money to be made on all sides from the sale of these products. In fact, if Americans selling Chinese products suddenly lost their jobs, we'd head into a depression.

Here is the thing man. I'm not a hater of clones. I don't like counterfeits but to me as long as the makers mark isn't used I don't really care and I'm not going to deny myself a good knife if I like it. But here is the problem. This forum has rules and one of those rules is they do not support clones, counterfeits or any form of IP theft. And in most cases unless its strictly for informational purposes talk about these knives is frowned upon. Trying to defend your reasoning or trying to convince others is a futile effort and one that will surely lead to at least a closed thread if not an infraction or even possible banishment. The moral of the story is this is a community. And a place where free speech is not protected as its a privately owned forum with rules. And when we join we agree to follow those rules regardless of our personal views about them. So we either honor the wishes of the majority and leave well enough alone or suffer any consequences of not following those wishes. I'm not trying to tell you what to do, just letting you know where the forum stands.

 

[craytab]

removed counterfeit photo

Back by popular demand is another pic.

1. That logo looks like a wolf to me, not a bear.

2. Wonder how many expensive boutique knives have similar flaws, especially those blades selected for a nitride or titanium coating. Maybe y'all ought to scrape off your coatings to check so's you can sleep nites.

3. Don't knock China. China is the repository of true capitalism and the spirit of private enterprise.

4. Isn't it surprising how little Amazon and eBay police their listings for "clones," "copies," and "replicas"? There's money to be made on all sides from the sale of these products. In fact, if Americans selling Chinese products suddenly lost their jobs, we'd head into a depression.

Now you are just trolling.

 

[Danke42]

Looks like Buddy Christ wearing two of those Steve Martin arrow through your head rigs inside a pentagram.

Bad juju.

 

[ChazzyP]

@ PURPLEDC, I had to go back and read all the posts, particularly yours, to see if I had mistakenly quoted you instead of the OP and had therefore somehow caused offense. Seems not to be the case, so I guess your issue with me is that you assume that Shirogorov is using what you term the axis lock without permission while I assume nothing.

To be clear, the patent on that mechanism is held by McHenry and Williams and they have licensed Benchmade to use it in their knives. AXIS is a registered trademark of Benchmade Knives. To my knowledge Shirogorov has never used the term axis or AXIS in reference to the Tabargan or the 110, both of which are now discontinued, although one hears that term used frequently by others in reference to those knives. I don't know that Benchmade has exclusive rights to the device or if they have the right to license or deny the use of it to others. Maybe that right rests (rested, actually, as the patent has expired) exclusively with McH & W or maybe they surrendered it in their agreement with Benchmade.

Anyway, I don't know why one would assume infringement without any evidence to back up that claim. I don't know that Spyderco has licensed Benchmade to use their round hole, which is either trademarked or patented (I forget). Should I assume that Benchmade are scumbags and be ashamed that I have a large and small pair of Griptilians and an AFCK among by two dozen beloved BMKs?

There's a huge difference between a company like Shirogorov and companies that make cheap copies of others knives be they counterfeits, clones, homage knives, or whatever. The quality of Shirogorov knives speaks for itself while the OPs knife pretends to be something it's not.

I also didn't realize that there was some "forum consensus" that I was required to subscribe to as opposed to thinking for and expressing myself.

 

[G. Scott H.]

I think I can safely say that the majority here aren't knocking China but clones instead. A number of Chinese brands that sell original designs and legitimate collabs with custom makers are quite well thought of here; clones are not.

 

[ChazzyP]

Maybe it's Klosenov for him?

Or like the villain from Rocky the Flying Squirrel--Badenov.

 

[CornSyrup]

One note on the marks seen on the blade. It is not only apparent on low quality knives such as in the OP. I have handled a Tom Krein custom fixed blade in D2 that was a chisel grind. The flat side of the blade had the same distinct marks.

 

[craytab]

There's a huge difference between a company like Shirogorov and companies that make cheap copies of others knives be they counterfeits, clones, homage knives, or whatever. The quality of Shirogorov knives speaks for itself while the OPs knife pretends to be something it's not.

I disagree, if they used the axis lock design without permission there isn't a huge difference. I've looked at this issue before and it is not clear they used it with permission which usually is a sign they did not.

 

[PURPLEDC]

@ PURPLEDC, I had to go back and read all the posts, particularly yours, to see if I had mistakenly quoted you instead of the OP and had therefore somehow caused offense. Seems not to be the case, so I guess your issue with me is that you assume that Shirogorov is using what you term the axis lock without permission while I assume nothing.

To be clear, the patent on that mechanism is held by McHenry and Williams and they have licensed Benchmade to use it in their knives. AXIS is a registered trademark of Benchmade Knives. To my knowledge Shirogorov has never used the term axis or AXIS in reference to the Tabargan or the 110, both of which are now discontinued, although one hears that term used frequently by others in reference to those knives. I don't know that Benchmade has exclusive rights to the device or if they have the right to license or deny the use of it to others. Maybe that right rests (rested, actually, as the patent has expired) exclusively with McH & W or maybe they surrendered it in their agreement with Benchmade.

Anyway, I don't know why one would assume infringement without any evidence to back up that claim. I don't know that Spyderco has licensed Benchmade to use their round hole, which is either trademarked or patented (I forget). Should I assume that Benchmade are scumbags and be ashamed that I have a large and small pair of Griptilians and an AFCK among by two dozen beloved BMKs?

There's a huge difference between a company like Shirogorov and companies that make cheap copies of others knives be they counterfeits, clones, homage knives, or whatever. The quality of Shirogorov knives speaks for itself while the OPs knife pretends to be something it's not.

I also didn't realize that there was some "forum consensus" that I was required to subscribe to as opposed to thinking for and expressing myself.

In the case of benchmade at one point they did have a license for the round hole but it expired and the way i remember the story they still made knives with the round hole anyways but that was many moons ago. Either way you didnt offend me. I was being genuine when i said i would like to know if you have any information i dont have. I do however disagree that shirogorov is any different from anyone else. Just because a company makes quality products shouldnt mean they are exempt from the backlash that is given to other brands. Im not defending the op or his knife. In fact i was clear i dont like that the knife has the fake logo. I just feel Ip theft should not be a feather in Someones cap to be used only when it benefits their argument and should apply to any and all brands. Otherwise it points to a different issue all together. I also think their is a distinction to be made between a clone and a counterfeit. A clone may look like another knife but doesnt actually infringe on any patents or trademarks. A clone is essentially not illegal as no protected property is used. Counterfeits either have logos or technologies that are covered under trademark or patents. The axis lock is a patent and it really doesnt matter who owns it if used without permission. So whether its mchenry or benchmade if shiro did it without permission they shouldnt be immune to criticism just because they rip off people better than most.