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Question for Cliff Stamp re: Ed Fowler's knives...
- Thread starter Mongo
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Scott,
I'm assuming it's my comments on Busse that are confusing you. I thought about disregarding Cliff's statement regarding the Busse challenge, since it wasn't Busse that brought it up, but based on the facts as I see them, Cliff's implied message is false.
Ed and Bill did not concede to the superiority of Busse's blades, or back down with their tails tucked between thier legs. The fact that Busse made the challenge with his new line of knives, and also that he tried to promote it as a challenge at the Blade show, are two reasons that help to explain my comments.
It's my opinion that specialty steels may make a bigger difference when production knives are being compared. At the custom level, when the smith has mastered his methods, design and execution will play a bigger role in making an efficient blade. I also believe that on the road to mastering your methods, there is a place for destructive testing. I always thought that performance tests were meant to discover the blade's efficiency at what it was designed for. What purpose does it serve to test every knife's ability to be used as a prybar, if that's not what it was designed for?
I didn't reply to the original thread, in the Busse forum, because I don't see the point in the challenge. That thread seemed to me to be fueled more by testosterone than anything else. Both makers may be making high performance knives, but it seems to me that their ideals are totally different. Apples and Oranges...
-Jose
I'm assuming it's my comments on Busse that are confusing you. I thought about disregarding Cliff's statement regarding the Busse challenge, since it wasn't Busse that brought it up, but based on the facts as I see them, Cliff's implied message is false.
Ed and Bill did not concede to the superiority of Busse's blades, or back down with their tails tucked between thier legs. The fact that Busse made the challenge with his new line of knives, and also that he tried to promote it as a challenge at the Blade show, are two reasons that help to explain my comments.
It's my opinion that specialty steels may make a bigger difference when production knives are being compared. At the custom level, when the smith has mastered his methods, design and execution will play a bigger role in making an efficient blade. I also believe that on the road to mastering your methods, there is a place for destructive testing. I always thought that performance tests were meant to discover the blade's efficiency at what it was designed for. What purpose does it serve to test every knife's ability to be used as a prybar, if that's not what it was designed for?
I didn't reply to the original thread, in the Busse forum, because I don't see the point in the challenge. That thread seemed to me to be fueled more by testosterone than anything else. Both makers may be making high performance knives, but it seems to me that their ideals are totally different. Apples and Oranges...
-Jose
Jerry Busse
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All is well between Ed, Bill, and myself.
In fact, I had heard rumors of a "free beer" at the BLADE Show. Hopefully Bill wasn't just being cruel or taunting with that offer. Now there's a test I'm interested in! Stock Removers vs. Forgers in a beer drinking contest that pushes the limits of total abuse!
In regards to bladeware, there are very few knifemakers who continue to push the limits of performance. I know that Ed is one of those few and I'm sure that Bill is following suit. It is important to note that with all of the blustering done in this industry about toughness and edge holding performance, that very few will actually step up and put it on the line. Listing the names of makers who are willing to publish ANY performance data will not take very long to compile.
So, for the few who do. . . . this Bud's for you!
Yours in stock removal,
Jerry Busse
In fact, I had heard rumors of a "free beer" at the BLADE Show. Hopefully Bill wasn't just being cruel or taunting with that offer. Now there's a test I'm interested in! Stock Removers vs. Forgers in a beer drinking contest that pushes the limits of total abuse!
In regards to bladeware, there are very few knifemakers who continue to push the limits of performance. I know that Ed is one of those few and I'm sure that Bill is following suit. It is important to note that with all of the blustering done in this industry about toughness and edge holding performance, that very few will actually step up and put it on the line. Listing the names of makers who are willing to publish ANY performance data will not take very long to compile.
So, for the few who do. . . . this Bud's for you!
Yours in stock removal,
Jerry Busse
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hi jose,
i'm confused as this challange thing continues to come up. i do believe that a unbiased test should be done.
i think all test knives should be sent to me right away.
the first test will be the "dark test"
if you don't remember, it consists of me putting 6 knives from each maker in a dark safe for about 7 years. severe darkness will promote stress risers if any are to be found.
the other six blades from each participant (12 of each have to be submitted) will be used at the rate of one a year. each will be retured to the other maker after use for examination to insure the test was complete.
ps: have you ever used either knife in a side by side comparison to open beer cans?
WELL I HAVE!!
both performed flawlessly
i'm confused as this challange thing continues to come up. i do believe that a unbiased test should be done.
i think all test knives should be sent to me right away.
the first test will be the "dark test"
if you don't remember, it consists of me putting 6 knives from each maker in a dark safe for about 7 years. severe darkness will promote stress risers if any are to be found.
the other six blades from each participant (12 of each have to be submitted) will be used at the rate of one a year. each will be retured to the other maker after use for examination to insure the test was complete.
ps: have you ever used either knife in a side by side comparison to open beer cans?
WELL I HAVE!!
both performed flawlesslyCliff Stamp
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Jose :
Compared to a spring tempered spine (45-50 HRC), Fowlers are not based on his video I saw.
Yes, you can maul the edge to pieces and the cracks will not propogate up into the softened steel as it simply can not crack in that manner. This is one of the other advantages to the differential hardening, the restriction of damage. In regards to normal use, it isn't much of a functional gain as with these large pieces missing out of your knife the usability is pretty low, but in extreme situations an argument could be made that at least you still have the knife in one piece.
The counter arguement to this is that it is no longer necessary to heat treat steels in this manner if the modern alloys are used. There are many steels now which have very high levels of toughness even when left fully hard. They also remain fairly flexible. Busse for example has tested INFI by flexing it in a vice (against the jaws), and reached angles far beyond 45 degrees (at which point prying quickly becomes fairly impractical). The edge is also very durable, you simply cannot lose large pieces out of it because of the toughness.
There are lots of other choices, many makers are reporting high performance with CPM-3V for example when left fully hard. As such an extreme example, awhile ago I tried to break a CPM-3V blade (Ed Schott), by subjecting the spine to hard impacts (Estwing framing hammer), while having the edge coming into repeated contacts with the shank of a screwdriver (Cr/V steel). While the edge did take some damage, it was impossible to break the knife, or even get the damage to move up significantly into the primary grind :
http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/images/3v_edge_impact.jpg
Note that the bevel on this knife which forms the edge is ground at ~10 degrees per side.
Not the ones I was thinking of, as I would chose them without that ability in mind, as the focus would elsewhere becuase it wasn't in the intended use of the knife. 52100 does make a very good choice for a general work knife because of the combination of toughness and edge retention. I have a blade in 52100 ground and heat treated by Ed Caffery, which also has the same edge profile (in cross section, full convex grind, secondary edge bevel which is very light 0.005" thick) that Fowler uses. Wonderful little knife, which has a wider range of functionality than my CPM-10V blade at 62/63 RC (similar cross section profile). The Caffery blade was intended for harder work, including cutting bone and splitting through hard knots, with these uses eliminated from the scope of work of the knife, the CPM-10V blade is a directly better choice as its only drawback is the lack of durability.
There is a lot of hype about heat treatment. While it is true that if one of the makers is a nob, and fires everything pretty much at random, they yes, what steel they use won't help much. However how much custom knife heat treating is done like using that level of imcompetence. When the maker is at least competent, the steel choice can easily make differences much larger than anything else. Can the best heat treater in the world give 52100 the corrosion resistance of what any competent heat treater can produce from 420HC - no . Can the best heat treater in the world hope to give 52100 the impact toughness of S7 - no . Can the best heat treater in the world hope to give 52100 the wear resistance of CPM-10V - no.
-Cliff
Compared to a spring tempered spine (45-50 HRC), Fowlers are not based on his video I saw.
Yes, you can maul the edge to pieces and the cracks will not propogate up into the softened steel as it simply can not crack in that manner. This is one of the other advantages to the differential hardening, the restriction of damage. In regards to normal use, it isn't much of a functional gain as with these large pieces missing out of your knife the usability is pretty low, but in extreme situations an argument could be made that at least you still have the knife in one piece.
The counter arguement to this is that it is no longer necessary to heat treat steels in this manner if the modern alloys are used. There are many steels now which have very high levels of toughness even when left fully hard. They also remain fairly flexible. Busse for example has tested INFI by flexing it in a vice (against the jaws), and reached angles far beyond 45 degrees (at which point prying quickly becomes fairly impractical). The edge is also very durable, you simply cannot lose large pieces out of it because of the toughness.
There are lots of other choices, many makers are reporting high performance with CPM-3V for example when left fully hard. As such an extreme example, awhile ago I tried to break a CPM-3V blade (Ed Schott), by subjecting the spine to hard impacts (Estwing framing hammer), while having the edge coming into repeated contacts with the shank of a screwdriver (Cr/V steel). While the edge did take some damage, it was impossible to break the knife, or even get the damage to move up significantly into the primary grind :
http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/images/3v_edge_impact.jpg
Note that the bevel on this knife which forms the edge is ground at ~10 degrees per side.
Not the ones I was thinking of, as I would chose them without that ability in mind, as the focus would elsewhere becuase it wasn't in the intended use of the knife. 52100 does make a very good choice for a general work knife because of the combination of toughness and edge retention. I have a blade in 52100 ground and heat treated by Ed Caffery, which also has the same edge profile (in cross section, full convex grind, secondary edge bevel which is very light 0.005" thick) that Fowler uses. Wonderful little knife, which has a wider range of functionality than my CPM-10V blade at 62/63 RC (similar cross section profile). The Caffery blade was intended for harder work, including cutting bone and splitting through hard knots, with these uses eliminated from the scope of work of the knife, the CPM-10V blade is a directly better choice as its only drawback is the lack of durability.
There is a lot of hype about heat treatment. While it is true that if one of the makers is a nob, and fires everything pretty much at random, they yes, what steel they use won't help much. However how much custom knife heat treating is done like using that level of imcompetence. When the maker is at least competent, the steel choice can easily make differences much larger than anything else. Can the best heat treater in the world give 52100 the corrosion resistance of what any competent heat treater can produce from 420HC - no . Can the best heat treater in the world hope to give 52100 the impact toughness of S7 - no . Can the best heat treater in the world hope to give 52100 the wear resistance of CPM-10V - no.
-Cliff
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Excuse me for jumping in a little late here, but I have a thought in regards to the bending vs- breaking discussion. My opinion is not based on experience and quite frankly I hope I never have an experience where I need to use my knife as a pry-bar but
If the need did arise Im sure the situation would be pretty dire. I cant help but think that a person would be compounding the situation by putting himself or herself in harms way by using a knife as a pry-bar and having that sucker snap. Based on the amount of torque that it would require to break a knife I cant help but feel that whatever part of the broken knife that is left in your hand after it breaks would be very hard to control and keep from cutting yourself or someone else. Not to mention any of the fragments that will become airborn after the big snap! Bending sounds a heck of a lot safer to me.
Another point is that a bent knife can be straitened and still be very serviceable as the tool it was designed to be. Again, when things are dire enough to warrant using a knife as a pry-bar I would imagine that it would be nice to still have fully functional knife after your done prying.
Rick
Another point is that a bent knife can be straitened and still be very serviceable as the tool it was designed to be. Again, when things are dire enough to warrant using a knife as a pry-bar I would imagine that it would be nice to still have fully functional knife after your done prying.
Rick
Cliff Stamp
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Rick :
I have broken lots of knives by prying, just recently snapped three Deerhunters, one multiple times. This isn't usually a problem. Your reaction to the break is usually very quick. Plus of course you make sure you don't stick your leg or whatever right until the blade .
This is really only a problem with the ultra-brittle alloys like ATS-34, or D2 which can shatter in multiple places when they break. Even the moderately tough steels like A2 will simply break cleanly with one piece left in hand and another lodged in whatever you were prying. I would agree strongly these don't make overly great prybars. They are wonderfully strong, but take little flex before they snap.
Yes, this is true. However this is no longer the critical point when taken to extremes. For example of what use is it to have the knife flex past 90 degrees, or even that far for example. By that point it isn't being a prybar anyway. The mechanics turn the vast majority of the force away from prying, plus by the very nature that the knife is so bent, the danger is increased tremendously considering the body mechanics required to obtain such a position.
When a knife is in such a distended position most of the force stops being translated to prying and instead becomes focused on pulling the blade out of the material (not overly safe) and simply trying to tear the blade apart. To test this out you don't need to break one of your favorite knives. Just take a couple of pieces of wood and make a square corner and now try to pry with it and see how awkward and inefficient it is compared to a straight piece of wood.
Ideally for a safe and effective prybar the knife should be maximally stiff while being able to bend to around 45 degrees and have some give before it breaks. What is of most importance is knowing what it can take, so have this clearifed by the maker so you know how far to go before the blade will either take a set or break. It is the same as any other performance consideration, how much care does it need not to rust etc. .
Note as well that how much you can bend a knife is strongly dependent on the thickness. The thicker the knife the more strain it will taken at a given angle. Take a cheap 1/16" machete and you can easily bend it all over the place. Of course this doesn't make a great prybar as it can't translate any of the force to a prying motion.
-Cliff
I have broken lots of knives by prying, just recently snapped three Deerhunters, one multiple times. This isn't usually a problem. Your reaction to the break is usually very quick. Plus of course you make sure you don't stick your leg or whatever right until the blade .
This is really only a problem with the ultra-brittle alloys like ATS-34, or D2 which can shatter in multiple places when they break. Even the moderately tough steels like A2 will simply break cleanly with one piece left in hand and another lodged in whatever you were prying. I would agree strongly these don't make overly great prybars. They are wonderfully strong, but take little flex before they snap.
Yes, this is true. However this is no longer the critical point when taken to extremes. For example of what use is it to have the knife flex past 90 degrees, or even that far for example. By that point it isn't being a prybar anyway. The mechanics turn the vast majority of the force away from prying, plus by the very nature that the knife is so bent, the danger is increased tremendously considering the body mechanics required to obtain such a position.
When a knife is in such a distended position most of the force stops being translated to prying and instead becomes focused on pulling the blade out of the material (not overly safe) and simply trying to tear the blade apart. To test this out you don't need to break one of your favorite knives. Just take a couple of pieces of wood and make a square corner and now try to pry with it and see how awkward and inefficient it is compared to a straight piece of wood.
Ideally for a safe and effective prybar the knife should be maximally stiff while being able to bend to around 45 degrees and have some give before it breaks. What is of most importance is knowing what it can take, so have this clearifed by the maker so you know how far to go before the blade will either take a set or break. It is the same as any other performance consideration, how much care does it need not to rust etc. .
Note as well that how much you can bend a knife is strongly dependent on the thickness. The thicker the knife the more strain it will taken at a given angle. Take a cheap 1/16" machete and you can easily bend it all over the place. Of course this doesn't make a great prybar as it can't translate any of the force to a prying motion.
-Cliff
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Thanks for the reply Cliff.
A couple of questions/comments for you...
You are talking about testing or experimenting in a controlled environment. I was thinking more along the lines of uncontrolled real life experiences. Also you mentioned that fragmentation wasn't a problem depending on the steel. Would you honestly not wear saftey glasses when you perform one of your flex/break tests that you were talking about?
Your statement is true if the knife being bent takes all of the flex in one concentrated place on the blade. A Fowler knife will flex along it's whole length. When it flexes along it's whole length, the point of insertion will only flex a small degree relative to the total 90 degrees (or more) of flex. Therefore a Fowler knife will continue to be a prybar well beyond 90 degrees. I'm having a hard time picturing your suggestion about the two pieces of wood...
That requires a lot of trust in what the maker is telling you. Wouldn't it be benificial to have the blade etched so you could see what HT it has been through and know for sure what it will and will not do? But then if you are placing all of your trust in a fully hardened blade an etch probably wouldn't do you much good.
All things being equal you're right. But there are a lot of variables that can be played with to increase or decrease a blades flexibility. Personally, I don't want to be doing my hunting/hiking/everyday general whatever with a crowbar for a knife strapped to my hip. It's all about tradeoffs and personal preferences. I still think that for all around use I'll take a Fowler knife. Anybody giving one away?
Rick
A couple of questions/comments for you...
You are talking about testing or experimenting in a controlled environment. I was thinking more along the lines of uncontrolled real life experiences. Also you mentioned that fragmentation wasn't a problem depending on the steel. Would you honestly not wear saftey glasses when you perform one of your flex/break tests that you were talking about?
Your statement is true if the knife being bent takes all of the flex in one concentrated place on the blade. A Fowler knife will flex along it's whole length. When it flexes along it's whole length, the point of insertion will only flex a small degree relative to the total 90 degrees (or more) of flex. Therefore a Fowler knife will continue to be a prybar well beyond 90 degrees. I'm having a hard time picturing your suggestion about the two pieces of wood...
That requires a lot of trust in what the maker is telling you. Wouldn't it be benificial to have the blade etched so you could see what HT it has been through and know for sure what it will and will not do? But then if you are placing all of your trust in a fully hardened blade an etch probably wouldn't do you much good.
All things being equal you're right. But there are a lot of variables that can be played with to increase or decrease a blades flexibility. Personally, I don't want to be doing my hunting/hiking/everyday general whatever with a crowbar for a knife strapped to my hip. It's all about tradeoffs and personal preferences. I still think that for all around use I'll take a Fowler knife. Anybody giving one away?
Rick
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Scott and Jerry,
Please excuse my bringing up the Busse line in this thread, but I felt I had to respond with my point of view. Not that it matters much, but if you take a look at the "Why buy a handmade knife" thread, in the custom forum, you can read my views on your production methods. If that drinking contest is open to collectors as well you can count me in...
Cliff,
You write a great review and are a great contributor to these boards. I really have no wish to argue this point with you, but it seems that you're jumping to conclusions a bit too much to be offering objective advice. You mention steels that in your opinion are better suited, under specific circumstances, than 52100. Yet every example will have it's own deficiencies when compared to 52100.
At this point, considering the fact that you've never even tested one of Ed's blades, your opinions are just generalizations based on the inherent qualities of different types of steel.
-Jose
Please excuse my bringing up the Busse line in this thread, but I felt I had to respond with my point of view. Not that it matters much, but if you take a look at the "Why buy a handmade knife" thread, in the custom forum, you can read my views on your production methods. If that drinking contest is open to collectors as well you can count me in...
Cliff,
You write a great review and are a great contributor to these boards. I really have no wish to argue this point with you, but it seems that you're jumping to conclusions a bit too much to be offering objective advice. You mention steels that in your opinion are better suited, under specific circumstances, than 52100. Yet every example will have it's own deficiencies when compared to 52100.
At this point, considering the fact that you've never even tested one of Ed's blades, your opinions are just generalizations based on the inherent qualities of different types of steel.
-Jose
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that's a dealOriginally posted by Jose Reyes
If that drinking contest is open to collectors as well you can count me in...
At this point, considering the fact that you've never even tested one of Ed's blades, your opinions are just generalizations based on the inherent qualities of different types of steel. -Jose
i'll buy the first round
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This is really an apples and oranges discussion. On the one hand is my friend Ed who has lived the life and does real world application testing. As was mentioned before, one of Bill Burke's(Ed's testing compadre) was used by someone to cut their way out of the cab of a semi that had overturned. Sounds like a pretty good real world test to me. Through conversation I know that Ed tests more knives in a year than alot of makers test in their lifetimes. I'd go as far as saying(and I hope this isnt out of line Angie) that Ed does so much testing I'd bet his better half would rather he tested a few less and sold a few more. For the record, if a man is isolated in the wilderness, I think a bent blade is far more useful than a broken one for the tasks needed for survival.
Cliff, you seem intent on finding the world's most indestructable, do all knife. While that doesnt interest me, hey, to each his own. But that was never the intended goal of a Fowler knife. You wouldnt use a flyrod to fish for tuna so why subject knives made with one goal in mind for things it was never intended to do?
Anyway, as a cutting instrument, it is my opinion that Ed's knives are among the finest made, past or present.
Cliff, you seem intent on finding the world's most indestructable, do all knife. While that doesnt interest me, hey, to each his own. But that was never the intended goal of a Fowler knife. You wouldnt use a flyrod to fish for tuna so why subject knives made with one goal in mind for things it was never intended to do?
Anyway, as a cutting instrument, it is my opinion that Ed's knives are among the finest made, past or present.
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LOL, good one
whip it, whip it good!
now let the knife making begin
Cliff Stamp
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baumr :
I don't do "uncontrolled" prying in the "field". I would pry in a stump much the same as I would pry in a vice. You take the same care in regards to application of force and body positioning.
When I started doing bends, I used to wrap the blades in rags and then tape them. Once I understood the general nature of the breaks and how it was related to the steel I mainly stopped. I still do it on occasion when using an unfamiliar knife which will break at very high loads and requires an odd body position. It isn't a significant issue in general provided a decent steel is used. Would wearing safety glasses be safer, yes. Would I argue against them no. But it would also be safer for you to wear a crash helmet when just walking around in your house - you probably don't though.
Is there a point that differential tempering makes prying safer because it reduces the change of shardes. Yes, however with proper steels, this reduction isn't functional as the chance is already insignificant to begin with. In addition, this arguement would only extend to spring tempering of the spines, not going below in hardness. It would be logically extended to restrict prying with brittle knives like ATS-34, which I would agree with strongly as steels of this class can shatter in bits when broken.
To some degree, but not an efficient one. It is a simple fact that the torque generated will be vastly reduced because the application of force is no longer perpendicular to the ideal load arm.
Then simply use a curved piece of wood and pry with it compared it to a straight one. Note the body position in both and the amount of effort required.
There is no need for trust or faith. This is a tool, no different at a basic level than a screwdriver. You simply check it by bending, and if the blade breaks before it was supposed to you get a refund or a replacement. Can the maker lie - of course. But when you make it clear that you indent to duplicate any performance claims the makers that overhype their blades tend to start moving away fast.
Few people could tell anything about a blade by looking at the etch outside of the fact that one part of the knife is harder than the other. It is also impossible to check many characteristics like tensile strength, impact toughess, ductility and wear reisistance, by simply looking at an etch. This is why makers do bend tests, cut rope, chop wood etc. . Otherwise the ABS and Master Smith tests could simply be passes or failed by looking at the blade etch. This information could then be passed onto the materials industry which would replace all its equipment for hardness, strength, toughness and wear resistance testing with a jar of acid.
Jose :
Of course, all steels have benefits that is why varieties exist. The steels I listed are optimal choices under the stated conditions.
Much of the above are not opinions, they are materials fact. Softer spines make weaker blades, tapers reduce strength, excessive flex makes very inefficient prying due to torque disadvantage, CPM-10V has a much greater wear resistance than 52100, etc. . I have also used blades of the types from which the "generalizations" are drawn.
-Cliff
I don't do "uncontrolled" prying in the "field". I would pry in a stump much the same as I would pry in a vice. You take the same care in regards to application of force and body positioning.
When I started doing bends, I used to wrap the blades in rags and then tape them. Once I understood the general nature of the breaks and how it was related to the steel I mainly stopped. I still do it on occasion when using an unfamiliar knife which will break at very high loads and requires an odd body position. It isn't a significant issue in general provided a decent steel is used. Would wearing safety glasses be safer, yes. Would I argue against them no. But it would also be safer for you to wear a crash helmet when just walking around in your house - you probably don't though.
Is there a point that differential tempering makes prying safer because it reduces the change of shardes. Yes, however with proper steels, this reduction isn't functional as the chance is already insignificant to begin with. In addition, this arguement would only extend to spring tempering of the spines, not going below in hardness. It would be logically extended to restrict prying with brittle knives like ATS-34, which I would agree with strongly as steels of this class can shatter in bits when broken.
To some degree, but not an efficient one. It is a simple fact that the torque generated will be vastly reduced because the application of force is no longer perpendicular to the ideal load arm.
Then simply use a curved piece of wood and pry with it compared it to a straight one. Note the body position in both and the amount of effort required.
There is no need for trust or faith. This is a tool, no different at a basic level than a screwdriver. You simply check it by bending, and if the blade breaks before it was supposed to you get a refund or a replacement. Can the maker lie - of course. But when you make it clear that you indent to duplicate any performance claims the makers that overhype their blades tend to start moving away fast.
Few people could tell anything about a blade by looking at the etch outside of the fact that one part of the knife is harder than the other. It is also impossible to check many characteristics like tensile strength, impact toughess, ductility and wear reisistance, by simply looking at an etch. This is why makers do bend tests, cut rope, chop wood etc. . Otherwise the ABS and Master Smith tests could simply be passes or failed by looking at the blade etch. This information could then be passed onto the materials industry which would replace all its equipment for hardness, strength, toughness and wear resistance testing with a jar of acid.
Jose :
Of course, all steels have benefits that is why varieties exist. The steels I listed are optimal choices under the stated conditions.
Much of the above are not opinions, they are materials fact. Softer spines make weaker blades, tapers reduce strength, excessive flex makes very inefficient prying due to torque disadvantage, CPM-10V has a much greater wear resistance than 52100, etc. . I have also used blades of the types from which the "generalizations" are drawn.
-Cliff
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Cliff,
I haven't written any reviews but I have done a bit of performance testing myself. I do have a few knives in my collection that I consider to be art, but my interest in custom knives has always been in using knives.
My tests are generally not abusive. If I test a knife to destruction it's not a simple matter of making myself another one. I limit testing to tasks the knives were designed for and draw my conclusions based on the efficiency of the blade.
Just like there are specialized steels there are also specialized designs. Ed makes a knife that's designed for daily carry, to be used for a wide variety of tasks. Any task that requires more of one of Ed's pronghorns than it is capable of, is not reasonable usage of a knife.
I don't think you should let this bias keep you from testing a pronghorn. If it's possible to tell a knife's performance based on it's materials and construction techniques alone, why not just write up the specs and forget about all that performance testing? I don't think that would be quite as much fun...
-Jose
I haven't written any reviews but I have done a bit of performance testing myself. I do have a few knives in my collection that I consider to be art, but my interest in custom knives has always been in using knives.
My tests are generally not abusive. If I test a knife to destruction it's not a simple matter of making myself another one. I limit testing to tasks the knives were designed for and draw my conclusions based on the efficiency of the blade.
Just like there are specialized steels there are also specialized designs. Ed makes a knife that's designed for daily carry, to be used for a wide variety of tasks. Any task that requires more of one of Ed's pronghorns than it is capable of, is not reasonable usage of a knife.
I don't think you should let this bias keep you from testing a pronghorn. If it's possible to tell a knife's performance based on it's materials and construction techniques alone, why not just write up the specs and forget about all that performance testing? I don't think that would be quite as much fun...
-Jose
This an interesting thread -- interesting in the area of human emotion. Cliff provides us his best "objective" information on 52100 steel, which indicates it's strengths but also it's weaknesses. Jose and others don't like his information because their favorite maker uses that steel and it threatens their loyalty and previous purchases.
I don't always agree with Cliff's approach, but at least he is trying to bring some objectivity into an area that is rife with subjectivity. As a scientist (in the food area) my work is to do the same thing Cliff is, trying to make objective sense of a subjective field.
When I hear some collector/user/seller say their steel/knife/lock/sheath/handle is best without stating why, I automatically put their statement in the "anecdotal" category, interesting only within the conditions that produced it -- nothing else.
We don't have an agreed upon set of testing conditions. Each maker that makes a claim, does so under his own conditions, other conditions may produce other results.
Cliff, I admire you for your effort. The problem with people not understanding objectivity is that they don't even know what they don't know.
PS. If you think you need a knife to crack the pelvis on an elk, you don't know enough to be a hunter -- TAKE AN ANATOMY CLASS! I became a "former" professional game processor because I was tired of cleaning up butchered, dirt encrusted, fly blown, sour messes. A hunting license ought to require a "minimum skills" test.
Thank you for your time, and now I'll go take a Paxil!
I don't always agree with Cliff's approach, but at least he is trying to bring some objectivity into an area that is rife with subjectivity. As a scientist (in the food area) my work is to do the same thing Cliff is, trying to make objective sense of a subjective field.
When I hear some collector/user/seller say their steel/knife/lock/sheath/handle is best without stating why, I automatically put their statement in the "anecdotal" category, interesting only within the conditions that produced it -- nothing else.
We don't have an agreed upon set of testing conditions. Each maker that makes a claim, does so under his own conditions, other conditions may produce other results.
Cliff, I admire you for your effort. The problem with people not understanding objectivity is that they don't even know what they don't know.
PS. If you think you need a knife to crack the pelvis on an elk, you don't know enough to be a hunter -- TAKE AN ANATOMY CLASS! I became a "former" professional game processor because I was tired of cleaning up butchered, dirt encrusted, fly blown, sour messes. A hunting license ought to require a "minimum skills" test.
Thank you for your time, and now I'll go take a Paxil!
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- Mar 14, 2000
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- 509
Hey Cliff,
Some good thoughts on your last post. However, I can't help but feel that we are talking apples and oranges here.
"I don't do "uncontrolled" prying in the "field"... You take the same care in regards to application of force and body positioning."
I have been trying to make a point that ... Well, Forest said it best... "Life's a box of chocolates". While you are basing your opinions solely on controlled tests, I am trying to impress an idea upon you that you never know what body positioning will be allowed by uncontrolled real life events. Due to these unforeseeable real life events, bending (to me) seems far safer and less apt to compound an already dire situation than does breaking your at the moment pry-bar/knife.
"You simply check it by bending, and if the blade breaks before it was supposed to you get a refund or replacement."
Again, apples and oranges. You're talking about controlled events where someone's life or health isn't on the line. Refunds and replacements would be too little too late in a real life situation. Just ask Jerry Shipman if his partner was worried about a refund when his knife broke while trying to extricate themselves from an overturned semi. Thanks to a high performance blade very similar in design and manufacture to one of Ed's, Jerry's partner is alive today to bring the issue up with whoever it was that made his knife.
"Few people could tell anything about a blade by looking at the etch outside of the fact that one part of the knife is harder than the other."
Isn't that a shame... Maybe we ought to start educating ourselves. I am, it's the only opportunity that we have to test drive a knife to it's max while avoiding it's destruction.
Rick
Some good thoughts on your last post. However, I can't help but feel that we are talking apples and oranges here.
"I don't do "uncontrolled" prying in the "field"... You take the same care in regards to application of force and body positioning."
I have been trying to make a point that ... Well, Forest said it best... "Life's a box of chocolates". While you are basing your opinions solely on controlled tests, I am trying to impress an idea upon you that you never know what body positioning will be allowed by uncontrolled real life events. Due to these unforeseeable real life events, bending (to me) seems far safer and less apt to compound an already dire situation than does breaking your at the moment pry-bar/knife.
"You simply check it by bending, and if the blade breaks before it was supposed to you get a refund or replacement."
Again, apples and oranges. You're talking about controlled events where someone's life or health isn't on the line. Refunds and replacements would be too little too late in a real life situation. Just ask Jerry Shipman if his partner was worried about a refund when his knife broke while trying to extricate themselves from an overturned semi. Thanks to a high performance blade very similar in design and manufacture to one of Ed's, Jerry's partner is alive today to bring the issue up with whoever it was that made his knife.
"Few people could tell anything about a blade by looking at the etch outside of the fact that one part of the knife is harder than the other."
Isn't that a shame... Maybe we ought to start educating ourselves. I am, it's the only opportunity that we have to test drive a knife to it's max while avoiding it's destruction.
Rick
It sounds like a lot of folks are actually agreeing. Lifter, you hit the nail on the head, and in Cliff's defense, he stated that his and Ed's goals are different from the start. I admire both Cliff and Ed for trying their best to test and measure in a world where an anecdotal remark can be taken as "gospel".
I love my SAK and my Steelheart, both for different reasons, and I would never try to substitute one for the other.
I also have a Pronghorn on order - back to the forge, Ed!!! Hopefully not too much longer? (Shameless plug).
I love my SAK and my Steelheart, both for different reasons, and I would never try to substitute one for the other.
I also have a Pronghorn on order - back to the forge, Ed!!! Hopefully not too much longer? (Shameless plug).
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