Question for the collectors and knife buyers.

When considering such a purchase, use of new stock, or the use of recycled items:

  • Is a significant factor.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Is not a significant factor.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
  • Poll closed .
K

Kevin R. Cashen

Joined
Sep 9, 2003
Messages
2,361
This question is only for the knife buyers and collectors, I came to this forum since this is where I tend to see the most input from those folks. Among knifemakers the debate over the merits of known steels over scrap items for blades rages on ad nauseum. Claims of all kinds on virtually every aspect of the concept has been passionately attacked and defended until many of us are ready to claw our own eyeballs out and smash our keyboards just to escape from it. One area that is often discussed is how the raw materials affect the value of the end product, and how receptive collectors may be to the nostalgia of a knife made from a lawnmower blade or file, or the meticulous use of new bars stock with chemistry specs. So I thought, “well duh!”, why not take the novel approach of asking the knife buyers what they think instead of makers going at each others throats with assumptions. After all we can do whatever we like but it is you folks who will determine whether we can make a living doing whatever we like.

Once again this is for the collectors and buyers, I don’t care what the makers think, we have been more than saturated with maker’s views and one more nasty thread on another forum is not going to resolve anything for us. But perhaps if we listen to others for a bit, we could get some fresh perspectives.

Let’s say we are talking about knives in the $500 to $1,500 from a newer maker, as a buyer or collector of blades that will be either used or displayed, how does the idea of new barstock vs. the use of old files, leaf springs, saw blades and other scrap items effect your choice of purchase?

How many of the knives that you own are made from scrap items, and how many are known stock obtained new by the maker?

For the sake of simplicity, let’s not sidetrack into “well a really good maker with scrap would be better than an amateur with new steel”, straw man arguments that inevitably derail maker’s discussions in the topic. Let’s assume that if you are paying $1,000 for a knife that you feel the guy knows what he is doing. I would also exclude items of value that outweigh any function of a knife as a tool (for example, World Trade Center steel so far transcends normal function considerations that it is incomparable for the discussion). Also it is a given that if you collect Ruana's you like leaf springs, so this is meant to help new guys looking to sell their stuff.

I sometimes think we knifemakers get so caught up in our end that we don't ask what our potential customers want. Other makers, I am willing to sit back and objectively learn from what our customers say, I hope you are too.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Let’s assume that if you are paying $1,000 for a knife that you feel the guy knows what he is doing. I would also exclude items of value that outweigh any function of a knife as a tool (for example, World Trade Center steel so far transcends normal function considerations that it is incomparable for the discussion).
Click to expand...

Based on the above criteria, I would say that by FAR, my preference would be for known steel. It's not that I wouldn't consider something made from an old leaf spring or saw blade - if it were a rustic kind of piece - but that would represent the exception that defines the rule.

From an investment standpoint - particularly at $1k and above - knowing the blade steel helps significantly with the provenance of the piece. There are fewer buyers on the secondary market willing to part with 4 figures if, when they ask the buyer what the steel is, the answer is "I think 5160 or something like it, maybe".

Roger
 
99% of the time I'd like to know what steel is used. Mainly because I'm going to be asked if I sell the knife. In the case of certain makers, like Jimmy Fikes, "an old spring" is good enough for me.

Win
 
Let's assume that the knifemaker truly knows how to work his steel. If we're talking about a forged blade, there certainly are differences in the various steels used. However, I have little first hand experience with the multitude of steels used for forging blades, thus, I rely on knifemakers I know and trust.

In the case of stock removal, the difference in steels is perfectly obvious (at least for me as I've had lots of experience with most of the steels used for stock removal.) For instance, and to make it simple, I'd take just about any D-2 before a 420.

In other words, yes, the steel does make a great deal of difference for me. And I wish I knew more about forged steels to be able to be more specific.
 
Roger pretty much communicated my thoughts on the matter. At $1,000 and above I want to KNOW the knife's make-up. Even though it's probably going to be a display piece, performance is still VERY important to me.
 
Apparently, to one maker, my position that collectors care very much what steel goes into the knife is dead wrong....let's see about that.

To restate for the record over in these parts, if I was going to use it, and it was priced reasonably(read sub $500), knowing that the maker had confidence in their methods, I would buy it....for the collection, no way in heck...new, clearly identified steel all the way.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I'll echo RogerP's sentiments, and go a step further--I greatly prefer new barstock over scrap items any any price point. That is not a reflection on any maker, many of whom are extraordinarily knowledgeable, but simply a personal choice to eliminate an unknown variable. And again, it is certainly possible for a maker to work very competently with that unknown scrap, but maker's are not always perfect and sometimes mistakes are made despite their best efforts. Why would I want to buy something when I could not even be at least fairly certain of how it ultimately will perform? I'd always have a little doubt in the back of my mind. Conversely, as you alluded in your opening thread, known barstock is certainly no guarantee either, but at least I have a little more peace of mind.

And AFAIK, all of my customs are from known new barstock and materials.
 
I'd submit that the only reason to use scrap pieces is for two reasons:

A. The maker wants to carry a piece of history or 'soul' into the process. There are a handful of makers and instances where this would give added value, but overall, unless the scrap is historical (and so is the piece), I would be more interested in real steel.

B. The maker wants to save some money using steel he can acquire cheaply, and can heat treat to his satisfaction. That's his perogative, just as it's mine to purchase or not.

You can see where I stand on this. That said, I would not want a blade from, say, Tai Goo or Daniel Winkler, made out of only hi-tech steels. I'd want their choice, whatever it is.

Yeah, I've purchased a bunch of Customs to qualify my answer. :)

Coop
 
for me, this issue is not black and white. There are many shades of grey, in particular due to the fact that many of the knife makers whose work I like 'recycle' steel and do so with enough knowledge to carefully choose their materials and are familiar enough with what they're working with to bring out the best in it.
There are many makers whose knives I would not buy if the steel was an unknown to them, because quite frankly, they do not have the knowledge to maximize its potential, although they might be wizards at the grinder.
 
I buy based on the known quality of the maker and his /her reputatation for quality. If they are "known" for using old materials that turn into a fine blade, then no problem.
 
I want to know what it is. All things being equal, I'd like the known steel better. If the steel has tremendous visual appeal (old wootz, tamahagane, etc), then it becomes "it depends".

BUT....

...nowadays, even for so called known steels, often we don't really know what went into it, except that it contains recycled car. My understanding is that the spec sheets of many steel producers have become looser over time. Please tell me if I'm wrong.
 
SharpByCoop said:
I'd submit that the only reason to use scrap pieces is for two reasons:

A. The maker wants to carry a piece of history or 'soul' into the process. There are a handful of makers and instances where this would give added value, but overall, unless the scrap is historical (and so is the piece), I would be more interested in real steel.

B. The maker wants to save some money using steel he can acquire cheaply, and can heat treat to his satisfaction. That's his perogative, just as it's mine to purchase or not.

You can see where I stand on this. That said, I would not want a blade from, say, Tai Goo or Daniel Winkler, made out of only hi-tech steels. I'd want their choice, whatever it is.

Yeah, I've purchased a bunch of Customs to qualify my answer. :)

Coop
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I voted "its not a significant factor" but in my defense I voted before realizing the exact stance of the post (basically I voted without reading:o).

I am With coop on this stance. I really like historic pieces especially pieces that are done "primitive" or "Native American" so using an old saw blade or hoe blade gives the piece character and its what I am looking for. Thats a specific case though.

If I am paying 700 dollars I would want to know what steel I am getting. It is important at that price point and even less than that unless the maker KNOWS what type of steel that saw blade is.

Some of my favorite fixed blades are made out of old saw blades and rasps and because they have character I really enjoy them. However I dont remember paying over 300 dollars for any of those. Even makers doing "primitive" pieces at high end prices tend to stick with a known steel or use a damascus steel to portray a look.

Ex: Jay Nielson recently made a Frontier Period Piece and could have gone with whatever steel to get the look he was after. But he went with damascus to get the desired effect.
 
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In general i need to know the steel.

If the steel was not known it would have to be from a maker that I had total confidence in and he was telling me his tests have shown it to be very good.

In general I like to know what I am buying
 
JParanee said:
In general i need to know the steel.

If the steel was not known it would have to be from a maker that I had total confidence in and he was telling me his tests have shown it to be very good.

In general I like to know what I am buying
Click to expand...

This sums up my thoughts on the subject.
 
I suspect results of this poll may reflect more of what us collectors/buyers 'think' as opposed to what we 'do.' Like most others so far, if pressed about what I think, I'd say "yes" knowing the blade steel is important. I assume the maker chose the steel type and source for reasons specific to the custom blade concept at hand, and I want to know why he/she made that choice. A casual approach to steel selection having nothing to do with an integrated blade concept does not, in my mind, meet the minimum expectations I have in relation to the dollars mentioned.

On the other hand, what I do is different from what I think. I have never asked if the blade steel that is part of the expensive custom knife I purchased came from re-cycled steel(s) vs. new stock. So, I think one thing but have done another. To vote on the question honestly as worded , I had to choose "is not a significant factor" even though that answer doesn't tell the whole story.

I wonder, of those who have indicated this is an important issue, how many have routinely asked before buying whether the blade steel is new or re-cycled? This is different from asking what type of steel was used - I assume most, if not all, collectors/buyers want to know, and will ask if not told, what type of blade steel was used.
 
Based on the above criteria, I would say that by FAR, my preference would be for known steel. It's not that I wouldn't consider something made from an old leaf spring or saw blade - if it were a rustic kind of piece - but that would represent the exception that defines the rule.

From an investment standpoint - particularly at $1k and above - knowing the blade steel helps significantly with the provenance of the piece. There are fewer buyers on the secondary market willing to part with 4 figures if, when they ask the buyer what the steel is, the answer is "I think 5160 or something like it, maybe".

Roger
Click to expand...

I'm with Roger on this.

Marcel
 
HTMD said:
On the other hand, what I do is different from what I think. I have never asked if the blade steel that is part of the expensive custom knife I purchased came from re-cycled steel(s) vs. new stock. So, I think one thing but have done another. To vote on the question honestly as worded , I had to choose "is not a significant factor" even though that answer doesn't tell the whole story.

I wonder, of those who have indicated this is an important issue, how many have routinely asked before buying whether the blade steel is new or re-cycled? This is different from asking what type of steel was used - I assume most, if not all, collectors/buyers want to know, and will ask if not told, what type of blade steel was used.
Click to expand...

I go under the assumption that the 400C, ATS-34, 154 CM, 154CPM, CPMD2, L6, 5160, Stellite, Talonite and other steels in knives in my collection are new material and not recycled.....specifically, that the maker didn't THINK that the material they used was what they said it was, but was purchased from a supplier.

I don't care where a maker gets a piece of CPM154 CM from, as long as they KNOW with accuracy that is what it is.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
My opinion on this is if a maker is knowledgeable about a consistent source of re-cycled steel such as a full set of 5160 truck springs, and does a heat treating test on the batch with satisfactory results, there is no real problem re-cycling. This is providing the maker knows how to work the material. But this is true of either new or used steel.

Most of the knives I make are made from new steel that I add texture to to create the look of a re-cycled file or rasp. This is because a lot of the quality controls on real files and rasps are not to good. I do still re-cycle some but only if I am comfortable with the material or a customer requests I use his great grand fathers old file for sentimental reasons.

Any maker can screw up the best steel with improper handling. Just as a knowledgeable maker can get the best results using re-cycled steel if it is consistent and care is taken with the heating and cooling cycles. I suggest to my customers that ask, to buy from a maker they trust and let him or her make the steel choice based on what they feel is best for the project.

A statement like “cpm 3v is the best steel for a knife” is short sighted. It might be that cpm 3v is the best steel for a particular design for a specific application but no one steel is best all around. The best steel for a particular project may be a re-cycled one.

Daniel
 
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