Question for the collectors and knife buyers.

When considering such a purchase, use of new stock, or the use of recycled items:

  • Is a significant factor.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Is not a significant factor.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
  • Poll closed .
Sorry, I figured since I was mentioned by name I could speak up. Forgive me Kevin if I broke the rules.

Daniel
 
No problem Dan, your style of knives are one instance when reusing old items can add significantly to a knife, it is also the one instance where I myself will recycle items. My friends in the black powder and rendezvous circle have some items I have made in such a way, though not with my name on them as that is not my primary style.

Dan made an honest mistake in voting, but I would ask that other makers refrain from skewing the numbers. I did not vote, although my views are no secret I really think this is valuable information for us to have as to how marketable the things we do can be, and it is really very pleasant to actually learn something for once from a thread on this topic. The only thing I have learned so far from knifemakers is how thick headed either side can be about not hearing a word the other has to say. :(
 
^hehe

'there are no bad cutlery steels, but some are better suited for certain applications than others' is a statement I read somewhere, (forgive me if it's not bang on).
I guess the grey area comes into play when the steel being used is not designed as a cutlery steel, and that is where the skill of the cutler determines whether the knife is either good, or a P.O.S.
 
If the maker knows what he's doing--and has demonstrated it through testing of his product; if his knives exhibit superb craftsmanship, and he enjoys a solid reputation--then it doesn't matter to me. Given the preceding it's fairly safe to assume that the maker performed the appropriate heat treatment, knows the limits of his knives, and stands behind his work. Why would he risk his reputation by letting junk out the door?

As for the investment question, who would buy a knife for over $500 from a maker who HASN'T proven himself in the aforementioned criteria?
 
bluejaunte said:
If the maker knows what he's doing--and has demonstrated it through testing of his product; if his knives exhibit superb craftsmanship, and he enjoys a solid reputation--then it doesn't matter to me. Given the preceding it's fairly safe to assume that the maker performed the appropriate heat treatment, knows the limits of his knives, and stands behind his work. Why would he risk his reputation by letting junk out the door?
Click to expand...

IF it is mystery steel, and the maker has a good idea how to get it hard, and draw it back acceptably, it will make a decent enough knife.

The key phrase here is "decent enough"....you can't get to "superb" with mystery steel unless it is an accident...you get good enough....I am perfectly willing to be educated as to how I may be wrong with this supposition, but you have to admit, what I am saying makes sense.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I know this is for collectors but I'm ASSuming so long as it stays civil and has some honest input, Kevin won't skin me ;)

Doesn't a lot of this come down to your trust/faith in the maker?

I'm too particular to use something I can't identify, but I'm leaving that out of this post.

I can SAY a knife is made of W2, and I think most folks know me and my work enough to take that at face value. But shy of having a lab test the steel, as a collector, you have to trust me when I say it's W2. No?

A kid at the school was plasma cutting "blades" out of an old saw blade and telling everyone it was D2. He ground the blades with an angle grinder (no heat-treating on his part AT ALL) and called them good. Now on paper, he had made a 4" hunter from D2.

But did he really??? ;)


I think it's really cool that Daniel uses texture to make new steel look like old tools. I kind of figured it (after seeing many of his damascus pieces with such texture) but wasn't sure. Very cool. :)

Thanks Kevin :)
 
NickWheeler said:
I know this is for collectors but I'm ASSuming so long as it stays civil and has some honest input, Kevin won't skin me ;)

Doesn't a lot of this come down to your trust/faith in the maker?

I'm too particular to use something I can't identify, but I'm leaving that out of this post.
Click to expand...

Of course it comes down to trust in the maker...most of us buy knives from makers we trust.

The trust can be that we know the maker did the best they could, and made a decent knife.

Remove the mystery steel from the equation, insert time and ability in learning about that "known" steel, following heat treatment schedules, some experimentation, and you could very well have a superior product.....

And of course, since it is you, Nick, who gestates a knife over a long period of time, the steel is only one part of the equation, the foundation.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
The key phrase here is "decent enough"....you can't get to "superb" with mystery steel unless it is an accident...you get good enough....I am perfectly willing to be educated as to how I may be wrong with this supposition, but you have to admit, what I am saying makes sense.
Click to expand...

You're making a gross assumption here--which is that this hypothetical maker will not put much effort into understanding the characteristics and behavior of the "mystery" steel he is using.

That doesn't strike me as someone who would be making thousand-plus-dollar blades with excellent fit and finish.

If you think about it, all nihonto are made from mystery steel (if they're 100% tamahagane). :eek:
 
I always want my knives made from a high quality steel that I know. I'm not interested in knives made from steel that was picked up at a junk yard.

The problem with making knives from scrap steel is that it is very hard for the maker to get to know the characteristics, because it might be a different steel every time.
 
bluejaunte said:
You're making a gross assumption here--which is that this hypothetical maker will not put much effort into understanding the characteristics and behavior of the "mystery" steel he is using.
Click to expand...

Sorry Aaron, but there are too many alloys potentially involved with steel to dismiss the "gross assumption", too many variables.....a maker can minimize the "dump" factor(garbage) by experimentation and effort, but cannot remove it entirely by using a mystery steel......and I have seen less than ideal steel STILL used and made into complete knives ie non vacuum smelted 154CM back in the day that pitted like crazy.

I use this as an example.....that even when the steel IS easily and clearly identified, as said by others, things can still go wrong.

bluejaunte said:
If you think about it, all nihonto are made from mystery steel (if they're 100% tamahagane). :eek:
Click to expand...

And the Japanese would readily use other steels IF they could get away with it, you buy Nihonto for the history and the hamon, not necessarily for the performance, although some smiths get great results.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
After reading Kevin's recent posts in this thread, I have to bow out as well. I thought I could be neutral and separate the collector from the knifemaker in me. I was wrong.:o

This is a good thread and as other makers would agree.... downright nasty of Kevin to expect us to hold our tongues.:p




Rick
 
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I would expect there would be a LOT less variability in purchasing new, known stock than in using bits of scrap whatever.

Roger
 
I really am learning from this discussion, when one of the main contributing factors to my not learning when knifemakers are involved is that I too am involved. The objective perspective of observing another group of people share their thoughts gives me the freedom of learning from it. I am also learning the lengths that makers on either side will go to not to have opposing points heard unhindered.

Guys believe me, I know how hard it is to listen to a desperate straw man arguments or people doing every contorted mental acrobatics just to appear to not yield one inch of ground on this topic, and not attempt to pop their balloon. I can’t count the number of times I have walked away from my computer with clenched teeth after reading some of the most reaching assumptions and far fetched opinion propelled with a healthy load of hypocrisy.

Collectors and buyers were giving a fresh view of this throughout the first page. But by the second page as more makers joined in we see many of the exact same talking points that you can see in any of the contentious weekly steel source threads on the bladesmith forum. Did I see some flawed arguments among the collectors? yes I did, and I had that awful itch that makes my typing fingers twitch, but this was supposed to be their discussion and my intentions were not just to move the bladesmith diatribes to another forum. This is not your opportunity to recruit some business for your philosophy, this is your oportunity to listen to what those potential customers have to say.

I have also learned that I am not alone in finding it nearly impossible not to speak up when certain things are discussed. But, self control guys, please. If you are currently or ever have been a knifemaker I consider your input here as an invalid corruption of what I was hoping to learn. This is the reason I made it a public poll so that I would see how much attempt there was at skewing the results. Please I have the strength to hear whatever the collectors have to say in this thread, do you?
 
Joss said:
Oh, yeah, you won't find any of that here, ever. :D
Click to expand...

:D Oh, I know! I have seen some discussions here and that is why I have always stuck to closer to the comparably mild and friendly bladesmith forum...

That was until the bladesmith forum became the "scrap steel vs. new steel slugfest forum", and now this place doesn't seem so rough anymore;)
 
I guess that we have to acknowlege that some folks don't read the entire threads, either, Kevin.
I see that three makers even voted.
 
One other point that I would like to apologize for. I am seeing how the way the wording of the poll can skew the results, but I know I have a bias and I went out of my way to not let it show in the format of the question. This combined with the limited number of characters you can use for the actual poll, made it very difficult to structure the poll as accurately as I woud like. For example, with the wording I have now a person could consider the use of old files as a valuable addition to the knife and thus vote that it is significant, but we would more likely interpret that as a vote against using old files.

This is why the discussion is the more important part with the poll only a way of keeping track. If only CBS, MSNBC, Rasmussen, USA Today etc... could provide us with such a discussion to see how accurate their one line poll questions are;).

At any rate I apologise for any such errors but I am learning all the same.
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
I guess that we have to acknowlege that some folks don't read the entire threads, either, Kevin.
I see that three makers even voted.
Click to expand...

But not reading the whole thread is not malicious intent, it is making an error that I am so guilty of myself that I cannot summon nearly enough guts to be too critical of it.:o A poll on a topic that I am passionate about right at the top of a thread... I would probably vote and then read. The poll is just the cold numbers, I don't think it alone can drag us back into the nonsense of the bladesmiths threads, but the discussion certainly can.
 
Kevin, what exactly are you seeking to accomplish with this thread?
 
Magnussen said:
...If aluminum became the next "Hot Ticket" knife steel in the eyes of the collector... darn tootin' I'd be all over that like white on rice on a paper plate being eaten by a polar bear in a snow storm.:thumbup:

Rick
Click to expand...

:thumbup:Wow, Rick this is the kind of honesty that I was so certain I wouldn't get from makers that I decided to ask collectors instead. I wished I had an "applause" emoticon for you. I can't say I agree with all of your thoughts but I sure as heck respect your candor! If everybody was as honest as you in this area, much of this debate would vanish.

Some say that welding threads onto a tang can never be as good as cutting thread onto the tang. I cut my threads, but not because of this argument as I have done thermal treatments and subsequent testing that poves the opposite to me. I cut my threads because that is what most of my customers want, it doesn't matter what the reasoning is, they are paying for cut threads so I give them cut threads.
 
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