Question for the collectors and knife buyers.

[STR]

I like knowing what the steel is when possible but having owned many knives including some made by my great uncle that I never had any idea what they were made from but were likely recycled from where he worked, that worked beyond what many known steels did it means very little to me if I like the personality and presence of the knife. In the field a knife either works or it doesn't. I've had just as many that I knew what the steel was and found they did not work as well as previous ones of the same steel, which led me to come to understand that many times the use of the steel, IE, geometry and edge profile has as much or more to do with how well the blade actually performs.

I draw attention to the so called inferior steel used by many production companies, 420HC. Yet, inferior as it may be, I can site many times where my Buck 110 blade made from that steel not only made jobs easier to do with less effort than some of the so called super steels I also own, but many times where my Case knives of a stainless that no one really knows the true ID of or if it isn't different from years past vs today also made jobs less effort and performed better than some of my so called better blades. In the end it had to do with the use of the steel and how it was profiled and the way the edge was done which was geared toward making the most of the steel used regardless of what that steel may be.

For what its worth, I'm the same way about pets. If I like the personality of one I meet I'll get a Heinz 57 in the blink of an eye and most of the time the mutts that just show up I know nothing about are much better animals than the pedigree. Some of the most useful, and some of the most satisfying knives I've ever owned have been ones I had no idea what they were made from and some of the most beloved pets in times gone by were ones that adopted me instead of the other way around and with little in the way of pedigree to prove their worth.

STR

 

[Lorien]

I love your analogy to pets:thumbup:
You also made some other good points, STR.

 

[Gollnick]

Had I known that the stance of the moderators and ownership was that the lowest common denominator could be allowed to override any topic in the most trivial manner, without the possible threat of repercussion, I never would have bothered.

This position is very disheartening to me.

What is the "lowest common denominator?" What is a "trivial manner?" Who is to decide?

We have a set of site-wide rules for bf.c. They are simple and few. Some forums have forum-specific rules which are posted in sticky posts near the top of those forums. The are typically simple and few. Those are the rules that moderators enforce. If you want to make your own rules for "your" thread, don't expect us to enforce them.





Speaking purely personally here: I dislike anything which creates division. We are one community. Yes, we have forums based on what one might consider "super topics" because some are more interested in some aspects of knives than others. But everyone is welcome in every forum. The division by topic-oriented forum is to organize discussion, not to segregate the community.

 

[Kohai999]

Speaking purely personally here: I dislike anything which creates division. We are one community. Yes, we have forums based on what one might consider "super topics" because some are more interested in some aspects of knives than others. But everyone is welcome in every forum. The division by topic-oriented forum is to organize discussion, not to segregate the community.

Understood, Chuck...but there are targeted markets and groups here, and if you want answers to specific questions, why would those interested in participating not heed the parameters of a post and question?

In other words, if I make a poll requesting information from people who train in and use Japanese swords, and a bunch of people who DON'T train in JSA, don't bother reading and just give random and useless information, and skew the results of my poll, how does that bring the community together?

It doesn't, it segregates the group that did not read, and did not follow the rules by their own ignorance or willfullnes...either way, it does not improve us as a community....as it should be, imo.

If not here, then where?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Gollnick]

Personally, I also have to say that I haven't answered the survey because the answer I would give is not there.

Blade steel can be a factor in determining the collectible value of a knife. When the blade is known to be made from a particularly well-respected steel, that can add to the value of the knife. But, this question isn't binary. I have a knife whose blade is made from a chainsaw chain, for example. First, you know it's a good cutting steel because that's what it was made for. But, second, the fact that it is made from a chainsaw blade is part of the story behind the knife and the maker who made it is famous enough to carry the knife's value even without a well-recognized blade steel.

Shortly after the attacks of 9/11/01, some famous knife makers were asked to make special, commemerative knives from steel salvaged from the WTC rubble. The chance that this steel was even marginally appropriate for making knife blades is remote. No. This was structural steel from a building. But it is the very provenance of that steel -- not its alloy -- which adds extra value to those knives. In a knife like that, the ability of the blade to take and retain a sharp edge is not a significant contributor to the value of the piece.

I like to know where the blade steel came from. I don't need to know the exact alloy, though that is nice to know if it is known. I would shy away from any blade made from a blade made of unknown, general-salvage, or pot-steel. But I revel in a blade made from a chainsaw blade.

So, sometimes the pedigree of the steel is important. Other times, the provenance of the steel is important, the "back story." But, you have to have one or both.

 

[bluejaunte]

Come on, guys. This is an internet poll. The results have almost no scientific value.

1) BFC allows anyone to respond in poll placed in an unrestricted forum
2) There is more than one responder in the poll with 1 post or less
3) If you want to "own" a thread, post as a platinum (or does gold qualify now, too?) member
4) The constant baiting back-and-forth is getting old. Give it a rest. All of you.

 

[RogerP]

Understood, Chuck...but there are targeted markets and groups here, and if you want answers to specific questions, why would those interested in participating not heed the parameters of a post and question?

In other words, if I make a poll requesting information from people who train in and use Japanese swords, and a bunch of people who DON'T train in JSA, don't bother reading and just give random and useless information, and skew the results of my poll, how does that bring the community together?

It doesn't, it segregates the group that did not read, and did not follow the rules by their own ignorance or willfullnes...either way, it does not improve us as a community....as it should be, imo.

If not here, then where?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Exactly correct. It's like the annual "Best Bowie" thread. It isn't "mine" in any realy sense, but I nonetheless set out some basic parameters that I ask participants to follow, and by and large it works out very well. Now, if someone wanted to be a complete schmuck, they could ignore those parameters completely and post whatever knives they wanted, because after all, they are not second-class citizens and I am not the boss of them. But it would sure diminish what is a fun and enjoyable thread.

I understand that moderators can't be expected to "enforce" the parameters requested by the originator of a thread. But if this is truly a community, why would some members persistently choose to ignore and disrespect such a request? After all, they are free to start a thread of their "own" anywhere and anytime they choose.

Roger

 

[STR]

I can't believe how many knifemakers have responded to this thread WHEN THE WHOLE DAMN POINT OF THE THREAD WAS TO PRECLUDE KNIFEMAKERS!!!!!!!

You pathetic sots have once again managed to destroy an otherwise beneficial and informative thread due to your totally polarized zealot beliefs and a total inability to READ or otherwise follow instructions.

Unless the results of the poll can be changed to eliminate the numerous knifemakers that participated, the results might as well be dismissed.

Preclude knifemakers? Where does it say that Matt? Kevin said he did not care what the makers think but that he wants the opinions of buyers and collectors. Can we not be both? The flaw in your argument is that just because I am a maker does not preclude me from also being a buyer or collector of knives. Look around in the trade and exchange forums you'll note that many makers buy knives. Have you never bought one? Kevin? Matt?

My opinion, my vote and any other makers votes here count as much as anyones because I buy and collect knives which is something I did long before I made them so if anything any polarized zealot beliefs were formed from the buying collecting years long before the relatively few years of making added to the whole if you want to stand up the years side by side for comparison. Then again if you want to remove my vote just because I make knives. So be it. Sorry for wasting your time.

STR

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Guys, don’t take this kind of heat because of my screw up. I have shouldered the responsibility for violating policy here.

After hearing Gollnick’s input I realized this could have been done better simply by making the topic about what collectors or buyers think or how they approach the subject. Then all the in-fighting among makers just would have been off topic, and most forums have rules about thread hijacking, although I hesitate to assume that here in light of my current lack of knowledge.

Although I assure you folks that I had totally benign intentions with this thread, my lack of careful thought in its structuring has resulted in this current dilemma.

 

[Tai Goo]

The idea of a knifemaker starting a thread that excludes knifemakers seems ironic, and like an attempt of one knifemaker to have the only voice in the thread.

This seems a bit fishy to me and there should be rules against it,… for obvious reasons.

 

[RogerP]

Guys, don’t take this kind of heat because of my screw up. I have shouldered the responsibility for violating policy here.

After hearing Gollnick’s input I realized this could have been done better simply by making the topic about what collectors or buyers think or how they approach the subject. Then all the in-fighting among makers just would have been off topic, and most forums have rules about thread hijacking, although I hesitate to assume that here in light of my current lack of knowledge.

Although I assure you folks that I had totally benign intentions with this thread, my lack of careful thought in its structuring has resulted in this current dilemma.

I don't think you've done anything which mandates an apology Kevin, though the fact that you have chosen to do so is very much consistent with your considerate approach to forum participation.

Roger

 

[Matthew Gregory]

Preclude knifemakers? Where does it say that Matt? Kevin said he did not care what the makers think but that he wants the opinions of buyers and collectors. Can we not be both? The flaw in your argument is that just because I am a maker does not preclude me from also being a buyer or collector of knives.

This question is only for the knife buyers and collectors, I came to this forum since this is where I tend to see the most input from those folks. Among knifemakers the debate over the merits of known steels over scrap items for blades rages on ad nauseum. Claims of all kinds on virtually every aspect of the concept has been passionately attacked and defended until many of us are ready to claw our own eyeballs out and smash our keyboards just to escape from it. One area that is often discussed is how the raw materials affect the value of the end product, and how receptive collectors may be to the nostalgia of a knife made from a lawnmower blade or file, or the meticulous use of new bars stock with chemistry specs. So I thought, “well duh!”, why not take the novel approach of asking the knife buyers what they think instead of makers going at each others throats with assumptions. After all we can do whatever we like but it is you folks who will determine whether we can make a living doing whatever we like.

Once again this is for the collectors and buyers, I don’t care what the makers think, we have been more than saturated with maker’s views and one more nasty thread on another forum is not going to resolve anything for us. But perhaps if we listen to others for a bit, we could get some fresh perspectives.

I sometimes think we knifemakers get so caught up in our end that we don't ask what our potential customers want. Other makers, I am willing to sit back and objectively learn from what our customers say, I hope you are too.

Which portion of this do you wish to have clarified, STR? Not that its relevant, as its been established that the entire point of the poll can't be done on Bladeforums.
The reason Kevin posted this thread -as is clearly written in the first post- was to get the opinions of others that do not happen to be knifemakers, as this topic has been beaten to death by them in far too many other threads.

I understand your position, I just also see that the point of the tread was intended to eliminate us as a voice. I, too own knives I haven't made. However, I am also a knifemaker. That common denominator was what was supposed to separate us so that we could hear what others had to say. Pretty simple concept. Mr. Gollnick, does this also answer your question back to me regarding what the lowest common denominator is in this thread? The one variable that was asked to be contained from this thread has dominated the last two pages of it. If that doesn't follow logic, then I'm definitely at a loss.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

I don't think you've done anything which mandates an apology Kevin, though the fact that you have chosen to do so is very much consistent with your considerate approach to forum participation.

Roger

I concur. Besides, Kevin, as I've already stated, I was the one that 'brought the heat'.

Chuck, how would one go about starting a poll or thread where one could 'lock' certain variables, as you've described? Or is there no way?

 

[Lorien]

I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I would just like to point out that from my perspective, both the poll and this thread were not objective from the outset and that there was an implied desired outcome. In fact, it was noted that the reason for this thread was partly because the topic had degenerated so badly elsewhere and that emotions were running too high to achieve anything regarding consensus, (a lofty goal, here on BF)

At its heart there's nothing wrong with any of it, in my view, and 7 pages worth of mostly valuable insight is testament to that.

If one wanted to conduct a purely objective poll and forum user survey, perhaps bringing in a neutral third party to frame the language and the survey would be a more effective way to do it. Perhaps someone who could lock the thread if things got too out of hand.

As we all can see, there is personal history that's been brought to bear on this discussion, and speaking for myself, there is only one poster who has been personally attacked. Since I don't frequent other forums, I found the vitriol somewhat out of place, since I found many of the points made to be general and not specifically inflammatory.

I like the idea of not 'calling the forum police', but I appreciate Gollnick's/BF's inclusive stance when it comes to discussing topics which are both of great interest to some and of mild interest to others.

 

[2knife]

......

 

[James_Terrio]

Rules or no rules, hijacking a thread with purposefully-controversial foolishness that is clearly meant to undermine the original purpose of the thread, says a lot more about the character of the "hijacker" than it does about the thread itself.

And, as Forrest Gump said, "That's all I have to say about that!"

 

[RogerP]

Rules or no rules, hijacking a thread with purposefully-controversial foolishness that is clearly meant to undermine the original purpose of the thread, says a lot more about the character of the "hijacker" than it does about the thread itself.

And, as Forrest Gump said, "That's all I have to say about that!"

Ditto that. :thumbup:

Roger

 

[Tai Goo]

I'm getting a bit tired of the name calling here.

I never intended to "hijack" this thread, just throw in my two cents. If the weight of my two cents is too heavy for you, I apologize, but it's really just in your own minds. You have the right to ignore me. It seems that I can't say anything without being accused of "hijacking", "trolling" or some such thing,... if what I say goes against mainstream thought, or a few individuals.

If you have a direct response to anything I've said concerning the topic of salvaged and recycled materials, I'd welcome it, and would like to stay on topic as best we can. It's not about me unless YOU want it to be.

"Ignore" is the root word of ignorant, ignorance and ignoramus.

 

[NickWheeler]

Just for the record, I was just trying to add a little to Kevin's question for the collectors... NOT give my input so as to answer the original question. I tried to articulate that, but I may not have. Of course I didn't vote either.

James' post above is quite poignant. :thumbup:

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

O.K. I have apologized, done whatever I can to undo what I have done, but now I should also be allowed a few words in my defense. I was asked by posters to give my input on the topic and declined, I was asked to give technical information supporting one side or the other, and I declined, I was directly challenged to refute arguments, and goaded to do so, and yet I declined. If anybody wants my views on the topic a quick search of the Bladesmithing Q&A forum for any of the dozens of threads on the same topic will give you my views many times over, but I still feel they are not appropriate here. While I am not satisfied with how I structured the thread, I am entirely satisfied with my restraint in following my own guidelines and just listening to what collectors had to say and I would ask that others at least acknowledge that.


Now if I may ask a sincere question of the moderators? How best can a visitor to Bladeforums protect themselves from being the target of endless harassment by another poster? Viewed in a vacuum it may look like I was quick to become harsh with Mr. Goo, but many here can vouch for how restrained I have been for months now as he has disrupted any discussions that he could when I was involved. I have repeatedly asked him to stop, I have tried to ignore him, and he has received moderator reprimands several times, all to no avail. I am entirely happy to avoid any thread started by him, yet I am cast as an aggressor when my final recourse is to more strongly assert my wishes to be free of his antagonism.

Bladeforums, describes itself as “… a public service to the industry, without asking anything other than the free flow of information. We encourage everyone to take part in a courteous and constructive manner.” I believe I can provide many who will also vouch for my desire to freely offer helpful information at Bladeforums. Yet Mr. Goo has doggedly badgered me in every way but a courteous and constructive manner, and appears bent on obstructing my participation in any information exchange. Is being driven off the boards the only option for visitors here when faced with such treatment, or are there rules governing such behavior?

If moderators wish to address these issues in private instead of a public forum I understand that, feel free to e-mail me. I am sorry but I found it best to disable my PM function.