Not the same distance in a shorter time! Same angle and shorter distance, with greater velocity at the end.
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Questions about axe handles (fawns-foot to start with)
- Thread starter Curt Hal
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Not the same distance in a shorter time! Same angle and shorter distance, with greater velocity at the end.
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This isn't to be argumentative, it is to get to the correct answer, whatever it may be, and have everyone gain better understanding. Debate is a healthy exercise, as those who were wrong gain new knowledge, a those who were correct, through thorough explanation, gain deeper understanding of what they already knew.
^Amen! If I'm ever wrong I actively hope that it's pointed out, and if I haven't explained things well enough for it to make sense to someone, then I want to know so I can do a better job of it.
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No one is trying to give him anything, I think that we all respect his knowledge and like the discussion. I am absolutely open to learning something. Also, I at least don't question that the head gets there sooner, what we are trying to grasp is why this would equal more force, deeper bite, more efficiency etc. I am not claiming to be correct, it is just that I don't yet understand why (or if) I am wrong.
This isn't to be argumentative, it is to get to the correct answer, whatever it may be, and have everyone gain better understanding. Debate is a healthy exercise, as those who were wrong gain new knowledge, a those who were correct, through thorough explanation, gain deeper understanding of what they already knew.
Someone was, but I wasn't implicating you. I don't agree with the apparent 2 sided coin where on one side there has to be a reason one handle is wrong and the other is right. It completely ignores evidence of the concept 42 is describing (among other things), which has existed in primitive tools for centuries, yet is somehow in vogue when it shows up in America 150 years ago .... even though it isn't known whether it really did or not.
No .... or yes, whichever works. There is no spoon.
But if you're being serious, I was just saying, if the two handles were to be moved the same distance so that all things are equal. This is just the concept. Whatever the results are sound perfectly explained in 42's various posts. Shorter distance with greater velocity you say? Sounds perfect.- Joined
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I would imagine the greatest velocity/force would occur just the other side of the apex. With a lot of things the apex is the point of most force and after that point you are just maintaining the force you already directed into the object as much as possible; controlling, trying to limit loss of momentum, and directing aim.
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JB - Ha! It is awesome. I am super busy right now and can't wait to get at it. I just hope I can save the original handle.
This discussion is fascinating. I have never studied physics, but am interested in these discussions. The shape of the octagonal handle being a guide to the brain makes total sense. It is interesting that the straight handle seemed to be the norm for so long, and then the curved handle showed up and became popular quickly.
This discussion is fascinating. I have never studied physics, but am interested in these discussions. The shape of the octagonal handle being a guide to the brain makes total sense. It is interesting that the straight handle seemed to be the norm for so long, and then the curved handle showed up and became popular quickly.
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Someone was, but I wasn't implicating you. I don't agree with the apparent 2 sided coin where on one side there has to be a reason one handle is wrong and the other is right. It completely ignores evidence of the concept 42 is describing (among other things), which has existed in primitive tools for centuries, yet is somehow in vogue when it shows up in America 150 years ago .... even though it isn't known whether it really did or not.
No .... or yes, whichever works. There is no spoon.
I actually think conservation of angular momentum explains it pretty well. I'm not sold on 42's earlier explanations, since I don't think it is a matter of time of impact or application of force from impact to full stop, but rather velocity of impact; that may be simply my lack of understanding. Either way, I still like and respect 42 and his opinions, just asking for clarification of his analysis!
I don't get the spoon reference, but I assume it is humorous and friendly!
One thing that I think would be interesting is to quantify the difference in velocity at impact for both straight and curved handles. That would let us know what sort of difference we are dealing with, ie trivial or significant.
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^^Agreed.
I definitely prefer a curved haft, but I've used mainly fawn's foot ever since I was little.
A straight handle is a rigid, slower motion implement to me, where the curved handle lends itself to more fluid, whiplike motion. But all in all it's a wash because it's only preference and what style you're conditioned to.
A side note in the vein of octagonalizing, I've got a Plumb 4#er on an old slim curved haft that's asymmetrically worn/ground so that the grip/swell is canted left and the shaft is canted right, so that it's angled to accommodate a right-handed grip and swing. This guides the swing naturally and feels beautiful in hand.
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No one is trying to give him anything, I think that we all respect his knowledge and like the discussion. I am absolutely open to learning something. Also, I at least don't question that the head gets there sooner, what we are trying to grasp is why this would equal more force, deeper bite, more efficiency etc. I am not claiming to be correct, it is just that I don't yet understand why (or if) I am wrong.
This isn't to be argumentative, it is to get to the correct answer, whatever it may be, and have everyone gain better understanding. Debate is a healthy exercise, as those who were wrong gain new knowledge, a those who were correct, through thorough explanation, gain deeper understanding of what they already knew.
Very well said! We are all here to learn.
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You know what we need? One of those sports/body mechanics/physics guys that studies baseball and golf swings. They could sort this out I think. The big thing that I'm not getting is why the handle shape should effect the head speed. The same head with the same weight on the same length haft swung by the same person should travel at the same speed....right? I've been wrong before but this is where I don't see it.
As has been said, though- I think that person preference, style and comfort with the tool far outweighs any small variances here. Group hug!
As has been said, though- I think that person preference, style and comfort with the tool far outweighs any small variances here. Group hug!
Square_peg
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They may be an added benefit to a curved haft by the ability to add a little wrist snap at the end of the swing - just before impact. This would slightly increase head speed and energy. Also, the more natural grip of a curved haft might allow harder swings for a longer period before fatigue set in.
Try this. Let your arms hang down at your side. Grasp a pencil in your hand. Bring your arm up until it's pointing straight out. Is the pencil pointed straight forward or up at an angle? That angle is why a curved haft is a more natural grip than a straight haft.
As Idaho_Crosscut said in the first response to this thread, "the fawns foot typically feels better on the wrists as you are chopping all day, because it doesn't over extend your top wrist as much."
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This makes sense to me. And it also supports the argument that the real functional design is the "pistol grip" swell rather than the fully curved handle.
I'm in the same boat, as I've mostly used curved hafts since I began using an axe. However, I recently used both curved and straight hafts to split some wood, and I feel I can swing faster with less effort with the curved haft. Is it because that's what I'm more used to? Maybe, and it certainly may play a role. But, while I generate power at the beginning of the swing, I find that as the curved-haft axe completes its arc, I give the swell a little "snap" or "pull" and it seems to increase the velocity/impact just before it hits the wood. I also like the straight haft though, and with practice could possibly do the same with a decent swell/knob on the end.
I am fully aware this is purely anecdotal, so the information is worth only that. As I mostly split, I haven't noticed a difference in accuracy between the two, but I can (so far) definitely tell a difference in "snap" at the end of a swing with the curved hafts.
Oh, and I also feel the curved hafts are easier on the wrist...less effort to keep them in hand.
Just my two shiny (or not-so-shiny) pennies.
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The earlier explanation vs. the latter depends on the kind of stroke being used, as there are multiple methods that may be more or less appropriate depending on circumstances, but I do feel that it still commonly applies. When doing endurance chopping it's more common for folks to make use of the "let the head do the work" approach where you just set the potential energy of the raised head into motion--that's when the conservation of angular momentum is going to be the chief factor. When delivering powerful blows where the arm muscles are driving the swing more directly (such as when powering through a limb such as to accomplish the work in a single hit) then the increased impulse will be the largest factor because you won't be tightening your radius as severely. A power swing is closer in similarity to that of baseball bat while an endurance stroke could be likened to that of a whip crack. An increase in the collision time will increase the impulse, and the head will drive deeper due to the followthrough of the blow. With an endurance stroke there's little followthrough because you're not driving the head--just letting it fall around a tight pivot point.
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I'm in the same boat, as I've mostly used curved hafts since I began using an axe. However, I recently used both curved and straight hafts to split some wood, and I feel I can swing faster with less effort with the curved haft. Is it because that's what I'm more used to? Maybe, and it certainly may play a role. But, while I generate power at the beginning of the swing, I find that as the curved-haft axe completes its arc, I give the swell a little "snap" or "pull" and it seems to increase the velocity/impact just before it hits the wood. I also like the straight haft though, and with practice could possibly do the same with a decent swell/knob on the end.
I am fully aware this is purely anecdotal, so the information is worth only that. As I mostly split, I haven't noticed a difference in accuracy between the two, but I can (so far) definitely tell a difference in "snap" at the end of a swing with the curved hafts.
Oh, and I also feel the curved hafts are easier on the wrist...less effort to keep them in hand.
Just my two shiny (or not-so-shiny) pennies.
You could accomplish a wrist snap with a straight handle but it would require more conscious effort on your own part in order to manage the radius transition at the end of the stroke and would likely require more full-body motion. Obviously full-body motion is still used in a regular stroke but by that I simply mean it would be more exaggerated, which would likely be more tiring if doing so for hours on end.
Agreed. It doesn't seem to take a lot of effort to achieve it with the curved haft. And I'm sure I could get it with the straight haft after a few logs of practice...but it does seem it would require more effort and wrist strength which would translate to fatigue after a while (unless the straight haft had an excellent swell/knob...which mine really don't right now!).
Edit: I also suppose it would matter greatly how you first learned to swing and a person's individual mechanics.
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With a straight haft the whip is often generated by a tight jerking motion upward to isolate the pivot point at the wrists just before impact. The wrists continue to rotate but the arms halt abruptly. You start with a large-radius swing by using a slightly arched back and the tool behind you, or by doing the "moulinet from the ground" method.
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New term to me.
From Wikipedia glossary of fencing if anyone else is curious:
"Moulinet
In sabre, a circular cut. A moulinet is often composed of a parry, usually prime or seconde, moving thence into a circular cut. This action, while flashy and impressive, is slow, since the action pivots around the wrist and elbow, and is rarely used in modern sabre. In Historical Fencing, this is the circular motion of the fighter's blade around the opponent's blade. The hilt does not move during this maneuver."
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Yeah I'm using the term in an analogous manner. The method where one has the head near the ground on the off side and you whip it rearward and up behind you before bringing it down. The motion strongly resembles a moulinet, especially with how the hands don't shift much from their starting position. Sometimes referred to as a winding blow.
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Bingo. Increasing the duration of the collision in baseball is called follow-through and it increases the speed of the ball. In baseball the player has the advantage of complete follow-through, not the case in swinging an axe, which means we need to generate a moment of follow-through. The head arriving sooner increases follow-through time by giving you access to another X degrees (maybe ~6 or 8 inches of head travel?) of swing AFTER the collision has already begun, delivering more energy to the wood.
Conservation of angular momentum is seen in timber sports when the axeman appears to be drawing the axe toward himself at the end of the stroke - exploiting the ergonomics which provide greater access to his body mechanics. As 42 said, it can be achieved with any handle, it's just easier with a curve.
And to tie this into the OP's question, I have found a picture of an American poll axe and curved handle, said to be from the late 18th century (i.e. before the invention of the copy lathe). I have contacted the person who wrote the article for more information - fingers crossed that I get a reply because the article was old. If I can find multiple concrete instances of curved handles from before the copy lathe, I'll feel more certain about the order of the chicken or egg.
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:thumbup:
I figure that curved handles probably existed well before copy lathes but they were only commercially viable on a large scale after that development. It's like how the use of curved scythe snaths existed well before they began to be steam bent--they were just made from naturally crooked timber by the user rather than purchased. It was only later that manufacturing techniques were developed that allowed such articles to be manufactured on a repeatable large-scale basis.