Questions about axe handles (fawns-foot to start with)

If you look closely at that haft you'll see that the owner meticulously selected that piece of wood (probably while it was still part of a tree) for it's inherent shape rather than dictate the curve himself. Obviously that knowledgeable and talented fellow wasn't interested in routinely making new hafts!

Below are before and after shots of an Ironwood (common name Blue Beech) that I dug and chopped out of the ground a couple of years ago so as to be able to incorporate a natural root curve into the handle of a walking cane. You'd be hard pressed to break this and my dad never managed to.

Purdon%20and%20walking%20stick%20008%20Medium_zpsdpsaeyc7.jpg

Purdon%20and%20walking%20stick%20011%20Medium_zpsz51bwwhh.jpg

That's great! I love seeing the use of the natural curve etc.
 
I have an early scythe with a straight snath. By early - mid 19th C or so there is a pronounced curving of handle. For you guys adept at using these. Is this an advantage?
 
I have an early scythe with a straight snath. By early - mid 19th C or so there is a pronounced curving of handle. For you guys adept at using these. Is this an advantage?

Presumably this is a perfect example of where steam-bending really came into it's own.
 
I have an early scythe with a straight snath. By early - mid 19th C or so there is a pronounced curving of handle. For you guys adept at using these. Is this an advantage?

Pictures? Pictures? Big scythe nerd here, so I'd love to see it. :D

Curved snaths were sometimes used pre-1800's but were mostly made from found curved branches. In the late 18th century a single bend seems to have been introduced, but then in the mid-1800's the recurvature in the neck was added to assist with the lay of the blade.
 
I don't doubt that 150-200 years ago there was/were some legendary chopper(s) or tool makers out there who devoted an inordinate time to selecting hafts, and people and manufacturers then fashionably emulated those choices without fully understanding why and what they were doing.

I think you may be on to something there.
 
I think you may be on to something there.

Rather I'd say he's right on the money! It was quite common for a fellow who had devoted themselves to the study of a tool to develop an improvement and then take it to a manufacturer and say "make me more of these!" or, if not possessing the skill to make such an article himself, produce a mock-up, pattern, or drawing to the manufacturer in order to have the piece made to his specifications. After which, the improvement catches on with his fellows and they want some, the improvement spreads, and then other manufacturers start copying it to keep up with the Joneses or because their own customers are demanding the item. While it was common for those who made the tools to also have some experience using them, there was less in-house R&D than you might have expected, and a lot of external submissions of ideas and requests.
 
How are you sure? He never mentioned them. I'm suggesting that we do the test. I'm happy to be one of the test subjects. But it wouldn't be wise to make conclusions based on one person.

And as for the assertion that axe racers can get away with a curved handle because they only work in short bursts that makes no sense at all. If anything the curved haft puts less stress on the hand and wrist and allows the user to work longer. But aside from that, axe racers depend on exactly placed blows to get through wood in the shortest time possible. It wouldn't pay to be sloppy. If there were some inaccuracy in a curved haft would it have to be offset by some other factor or racers wouldn't be using them.

The curve in a haft matches the natural way your grip aligns to your wrist. You twist your forearm and the haft twists in line with your forearm not on some crazy line 10" above your axe head. Try it for yourself and see. Pick up a curved haft and twist it. Is it moving like in Cook's sketch or is it moving in line with your forearm. I encourage you all to try this.

I've also encouraged you all to try this. Stand up. Let your arms dangle at your sides. Grasp a pencil in your hand. Now raise your arm up parallel to the floor. Is the pencil pointing straight forward or up at an angle? This answers why we have curved hafts.

Cook used an axe enough to know the difference he felt between the types of hafts. He doesn't really clarify testing throughout any of the book, but it's clear that he put a lot of effort into analyzing the differences and geometry of the axes, and this implies there was some amount of side by side testing. I could just say, do you have any evidence that he did not do tests? and we wouldn't be any further. Anyone with a tonne of experience knows what they feel with the axe's movement, and of course results may be subjective, but various people giving feedback may give an idea of what is really going on. So I suppose I should have said, 'In any case he had enough experience that he did the equivalent of side by side testing.'

I would do some tests as well to see.

I'm not sure why the short bursts point makes no sense to you. We have not actually come to any group conclusion on where the best axe handles excel, and there is more at play than just comfort for endurance, there is also the argument of increased velocity with the curved handle, increased ability to withdraw an axe from wood with the curved handle, possible advantage to popping a chip with the curved handle, and increased accuracy with the straight handle. My argument is that the racers either have a regulation requiring certain deviations in the handle/head or they do seem to prefer the curved handle for one of these benefits (popping, velocity, backswing etc.), and as short chopping does not cause your accuracy to falter as much as long work (especially for highly trained people) it may be more important to focus on the other factors. So it makes perfect sense rationally.

I have done similar tests holding the straight and curved handle. If you hold the straight handle with the axe head in a bucking position you will feel that when turning your wrist the axe head will only spin, which affects the degree of penetration. For the curved handle you can see that the head will spin but also move horizontally with the toe, which affects the degree of penetration and the horizontal angle. This means you can miss on two planes rather than one. Cook's drawing is representative and not literal. It does not mean that your axe will miss ten inches above the head, it means that there is a proportional deviation in accuracy due to the twist of the curved haft being off line of the axis in the eye.

Perhaps a better test is to hold the handle with both hands, with your hand towards the head you can feel that the straight handled axe will spin while the curved haft tends to spin and push your hand left or right. For me one side seems to push more than the other. I would say then it is a matter of tradeoffs. Do you really conserve energy from the perceived comfort, or are you wasting that energy from inaccurate swings (and the increased likelihood of breaking a handle)?

And of course, there's also the problem that the vast majority of endurance users, fallers, used double-bit axes with a straight haft. So I don't know where the argument for the curved handle being better and more comfortable comes from. Seems like speculation to me.
 
Check out some Basque endurance timbersports chopping events. They chop much longer than 20-30 seconds. You still see Keech and Tuatahi racers on curved handles being the norm.

Have not really seen this. But the question still stands, are there certain regulations which prevent certain sizes, weights, and balances? Most sports do have such regulations, and I cannot understand why they wouldn't use a double-bitted axe or at least a single that didn't have terrible balance. It seems like something that would be in the regulations, but I have no idea since I've never really followed timbersports.

It also seems some people missed what I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to put down timbersports, I was just saying that when you have an extreme level of skill and can hit accurately it may not matter as much to you to choose an accurate axe, instead you might choose other factors we have been discussing: increased velocity/power, potential benefits in sticking/backswing (curved seems better to me here), what feels natural, etc.

Also, how long are we talking? 20-30 seconds was just a generalisation. Some events are probably a minute and a half or so, which seems to be standard for a lot of competitive sports at the Olympic level. And whatever it is people train for they train for the maximum output within that time frame. Meaning they would be accurate within that time but much longer and they will begin to fatigue and make major mistakes.
 
In Cook's words:
"The axis of pivot for a straight-handled ax lies in the center of the handle throughout its entire length from end knob to top side of the eye.
But with the curved handle, any rotation is controlled by the chopper’s hands grasping the lower curve at the grip. Therefore the real axis of pivot does not pass through the ax head at all because the 10 degree bend of the lower handgrip is not pointed in that direction. The effective and real axis lies in an extension of the grip and passes somewhere to the rear of the entire axhead."

Meaning that you are not just spinning with your wrist adjustments on the curved handle, you are also twisting. This would also mean that wrist adjustments would have to be greater, so possibly negating any ergonomic benefit of the curved handle.

Here:
http://axeconnected.blogspot.ca/2011/02/straight-versus-curved.html

An excellent comment there relates the axis pivot to the geometry of the handle. I was thinking something similar. If you tested the handle's pivot it would be offset to the pivot of the head. This is basically what Cook was trying to show, albeit in old-style math rather than modern math (which would just cause even more confusion for most of us).

As well it is suggested that racers use a curved haft for security, which perhaps makes the most sense. Looking at the axes the curve seems very slight, and with a fawn's foot for secure grip.

And another discussion here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1107851-Straight-Handle-on-a-Single-Bit-Axe
 
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In Cook's words:
"The axis of pivot for a straight-handled ax lies in the center of the handle throughout its entire length from end knob to top side of the eye.
But with the curved handle, any rotation is controlled by the chopper’s hands grasping the lower curve at the grip. Therefore the real axis of pivot does not pass through the ax head at all because the 10 degree bend of the lower handgrip is not pointed in that direction. The effective and real axis lies in an extension of the grip and passes somewhere to the rear of the entire axhead."

Meaning that you are not just spinning with your wrist adjustments on the curved handle, you are also twisting. This would also mean that wrist adjustments would have to be greater, so possibly negating any ergonomic benefit of the curved handle.

Here:
http://axeconnected.blogspot.ca/2011/02/straight-versus-curved.html

And another discussion here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1107851-Straight-Handle-on-a-Single-Bit-Axe

"Axis of pivot"? Sounds like pseudo-science to me. A straight handle on a single bit axe starts out unbalanced with the "axis of pivot" behind the handle line since the axe bit is weight forward. Human bodies are not rods and gears.

I liked Cook's book but I need more proof on this curved/straight handle theory.
 
Most of my axe usage was with straight handled European axes with small polls (i.e. with unbalanced heads). Still, the axes did not feel unbalanced or inaccurate.
Most of the curved axe handles I have encountered in the US (mostly on hardware store axes) felt uncomfortable and unbalanced, even with the balanced (polled) heads.
I always wrote this down to “muscle memory” and “conditioning” and also to individual anatomy.
The few curved handles I have found comfortable were the Council tool ones used nowadays and some of the modern Wetterling's ones.

Curved handles vary tremendously and they might have been even more varied in the past, when people frequently made their own handles using patterns they felt to be optimal for them:

http://bushcraftusa.com/forum/showthread.php/112325-Old-Axe-Handle-Patterns

Also, most of my axe usage was bucking and splitting wood and not felling.
I think different specific tasks might require different levels of accuracy or might allow to get away with different levels of inaccuracy.

Just my highly subjective 0.02$.

I also think a controlled, well measured side by side comparison would be great.
 
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Also, how long are we talking? 20-30 seconds was just a generalisation. Some events are probably a minute and a half or so, which seems to be standard for a lot of competitive sports at the Olympic level. And whatever it is people train for they train for the maximum output within that time frame. Meaning they would be accurate within that time but much longer and they will begin to fatigue and make major mistakes.

Competitions can be around 30 minutes at the shortest with most taking more than an hour and some stretching 4-5 hours.
 
"Axis of pivot"? Sounds like pseudo-science to me. A straight handle on a single bit axe starts out unbalanced with the "axis of pivot" behind the handle line since the axe bit is weight forward. Human bodies are not rods and gears.

I liked Cook's book but I need more proof on this curved/straight handle theory.

Why would it be pseudoscience? Most everything has an axis. For an axe head there are two pivot points: one along the bit which would be the high-centerline, a mass two-thirds of the way towards the toe running from the edge to the eye or poll); and a second in the eye itself where the mass on each side equals out. For a double-bit the axis is precisely in the middle of the eye, but for the single the axis is closer towards the bit, not in the center of the eye, since they rarely have equivalent mass in the poll (why they don't add mass to the poll I have no idea). An approximation of this can be made when balancing an axe on a piece of wood at the haft. The edge will almost be at the center of the poll for a well balanced single-bit axe, but this is just an approximation. Cook shows how to get the exact axis point by spinning the axe on a string.

The straight handle aligns in the center of this axis, but also spins with the point of pivot. The curved handle is more likely offset at two points, and due to the angle being offset with the axis line spins counter to the axis of pivot.

The following image is from the other thread:
6a00e5513924e68833017d3ebcf6fb970c-800wi

Is it possible this image details why the curved handle became more common, or at least somewhat common? I have considered this before, in very wide trees you are in danger of damaging the handle or your knuckles if you try to hit straight with the bit. On these axes you see that they are quite open, the edge balance closer to the heel. Hanging an axe in this way with a straight handle requires it to be even more offset whereas the curved handle compensates for the negative hang while keeping your hands far back from what you are hitting. None of this is really a worry in the width and depth of smaller trees.
 
What's neat about the preceding picture is that the lads must all have bought (or been issued) the same axes or else they got their replacement hafts from the same maker. Usually there is enough variation in hafts that you can distinguish one from another but certainly not in this case.
When you're at the end of a swing both hands are at the back so I can't see curve or straight making any real difference for knuckle protection.
 
Well the whip action would likely be more important when the heel is exposed like these axes. But I've never taken down a tree more than 36", and certainly not 84" or whatever is the double of those handles.
 
Meaning that you are not just spinning with your wrist adjustments on the curved handle, you are also twisting. This would also mean that wrist adjustments would have to be greater, so possibly negating any ergonomic benefit of the curved handle.

Cook was trying to prove that IF your swing wasn't perfectly accurate, it would be even less accurate with a curved handle. There is nothing inherent in either handle that would cause or prevent any twisting given a similar cross section. And it would be the opposite, you have to make smaller wrist adjustments because the effect of the correction is greater in a curved handle - by his logic, not mine.

Amazingly he couldn't even draw an axe ..... but by his logic he shows that with a straight handle a 5 degree change results in .39" deviation and .78" with a curved - ie less movement with the curved handle equals more deviation. Which is nonsense.

More importantly, whether one is more accurate over another doesn't make much difference to someone who is accurate with both. And what is particularly amazing about his argument is that the edge of the bit must theoretically be exactly inline with the handle for maximum accuracy potential. In fact, in that way, the curved handle accomplishes exactly what he thinks is better about the straight handle, by setting the head further back. He even draws the line straight through the tool and it's closer to the bit! He contradicts himself in his own work.
 
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This is an interesting discussion! I doubt any mere facts will change my mind, as i simply prefer straight handles over the range of things I do with an axe and I like the look. For those who feel the other way, I'm just as happy to let them be that way.

The only reservation I have is that those with one preference or the other should respect that the opposing view is not based necessarily on ignorance, ineptitude or even inexperience. There are different physiques, applications, and techniques, and one set may make a person lean one way. For example, any accuracy advantage of the straight handle, if it exists, is miniscule; likewise the ergonomic and efficiency advantages of curved handles must not be overwhelming or double bits would not have become so widespread if the disadvantages of the straight handle outweighed the utility of having two bits...

I guess what I'm suggesting is let's continue to analyze functional and even aesthetic differences critically, but not just have some kind of ford vs. Chevy debate.
 
This is an interesting discussion! I guess what I'm suggesting is let's continue to analyze functional and even aesthetic differences critically, but not just have some kind of Ford vs. Chevy debate.
Hear hear! Lucky that Daimler-Benz nor Toyota has waded into this. Someone out there willing to hang a curved haft upside down? It'd look unfashionably "stupid" but I betcha it would work just as well as all the others. If anything it would make folks put more energy into the end of a swing than at the beginning. Swinging your arms is only part of the equation, how your body is oriented and involved (namely 'put your weight into it') is one that baseball players have 'bought into' all along. Either their rule book is specific restrictive or they've opted for best of both worlds and universally stuck with 'straights'.
 
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