Questions about axe handles (fawns-foot to start with)

[littleknife]

I like this thread a lot, gives a lot of interesting information to think about. :thumbup:

I wonder if some of the effects ascribed here to the curved (especially the fawn foot) handles and the forward canting blades of the khukuri would also explain the canted edges & downward curving heads of the original battle axe/weapon fokos (as opposed to the 19th century walking stick type/decorative/status badge type “fokos) and the curved shape of the shorter war clubs (e.g. the North American Native ball head war clubs)?
In both cases the mass of the head or ball was not necessarily very large, so to create a more powerful blow, a larger speed would definitely help. Also, both weapons were frequently used in one-on-one fights, where frequently speed (skill) would be more important for winning the fight than the mass of the weapon.

The original Hungarian fokos was a light cavalry mounted warrior’s close quarter weapon with a shorter, relatively thin straight handle and a curved head curving downwards in both sides (the bit and the poll, which gave the fokos its name - ‘fok’ means poll in the case of axes). During the 16th-19th Century the fokos became widely used by infantry troops too, this had a longer handle compared to the one used by the cavalry.

Types of fokos in archeological finds:

http://www.bozotmives.hu/xinha/plug...lszerelesek/fokos/fokos_1resz/fokos_4abra.png

http://www.bozotmives.hu/xinha/plug...lszerelesek/fokos/fokos_1resz/fokos_5abra.png


Early 18th Century fokos:

http://palocbaranta.hu/images/stories/rakoczi-fokosa.jpg

See also some modern reproductions of 18th-19th Century fokos:

http://www.gellerium.hu/wp-content/gallery/baksi-zoli/cimeres-fokos-6000.jpg

http://www.gellerium.hu/wp-content/gallery/baksi-zoli/thumbs/thumbs_csakanyos-fokos-5000.jpg

 

[cityofthesouth]

By some stroke of luck I have received a reply. My contact says he photographed the tools in various museums and believes that the curved handle was an integral part of the evolution of the American poll axe, which was of course, specifically intended for felling trees. Early Americans were looking for every advantage when they got here, looked at our trees and realized the inadequacy of their European axes. Also, developing some understanding of how brilliant Blanchard was, given all of his inventions, most of which were born to improve the industry of this country, it seems further unlikely that his copy lathe was intended to produce some cutesy marketing piece.

 

[cityofthesouth]

I like this thread a lot, gives a lot of interesting information to think about. :thumbup:

I wonder if some of the effects ascribed here to the curved (especially the fawn foot) handles and the forward canting blades of the khukuri would also explain the canted edges & downward curving heads of the original battle axe/weapon fokos (as opposed to the 19th century walking stick type/decorative/status badge type “fokos) and the curved shape of the shorter war clubs (e.g. the North American Native ball head war clubs)?

I'd say you're absolutely right. People can see and understand the concept, and we know they have, dating back to probably the earliest of people. That's not the same as having an academic understanding, but is it really needed? The proof is in the pudding.

 

[Ohioan614]

http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/aas.html

I found this website. The images, for me, do speak to the accuracy of a straight. I don't think there is anything that makes a case for power for one style or another. I don't have any experience with a straight hafted axe. Sometimes the simplest things are the most complex cloaked in tradition.

 

[Square_peg]

Those are the same old photos from Cook's 'The Ax Book'. Cook puts this notion forward but it's never been substantiated.

I'd like to see a test done. Mark a long log out every 4 inches on both sides - 50-75 marks. On one side swing at each mark with a straight haft axe. On the other side use a curved haft axe of the same length and weight. Measure how far off you are at every mark and divide by the number of marks to come up with a statistical average accuracy for the two axes. Have a half a dozen guys perform this test and combine the results. Then we might begin to see if there's any truth in Cook's theory.

And another thought - did you ever see a racing axe with a straight haft? Why would competitors opt for an inaccurate haft?

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I can't turn up photos right now for some reason but I recently saw an article on a newly discovered completely preserved Irish bronze axe that used two-piece hafting and the handle on it was a gorgeously curved one that looked almost like a modern curved fawn's foot. A real beauty.

 

[Ohioan614]

As far a power goes, my brain tells me that a curved would yield more power.

In the accuracy depar. ent, a racer has hours and hours of reps in constant positions. I don't know for a fact but I would wager that all events have specific setup rule. Muscle memorycomes into play. Always hit here and here. The diagrams shows the principle of a lever. Longer distance yields more movement at the end. However, at this point even thought the deviation is almost double, I would say that the hand/wrist/arm holding that haft has more to do with the accuracy. If you can mantain a +\- 3 degree with a curved haft and only a +\- 6 degree with a straight haft the whole argument goes out the window. It really comes down to a phrase that is very common on gun forums when talking about the accuracy of a rifle, "Rifle X is sub-MOA, if I do my part."

In the end, swing what you like. There is probably a reason why you like it. Althought breaking such a simple tool down into the physical principles that govern it is a fun mental exercise.

 

[300Six]

http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/aas.html

I found this website. The images, for me, do speak to the accuracy of a straight. I don't think there is anything that makes a case for power for one style or another. I don't have any experience with a straight hafted axe. Sometimes the simplest things are the most complex cloaked in tradition.

Interesting, thank you for this. I'm supposing that if curved hafts were truly superior (rather than merely more comfortable for the back hand) then we'd have seen curved golf clubs, tennis rackets, and baseball bats a long time ago.
Interesting that widespread adoption of curved axe hafts coincides with the introduction of 'pistol grips' on rifles. Off-hand shooting prowess didn't suddenly improve nor did armies equipped with 'bent wrist' stocks suddenly become that much more effective.

 

[crown & hammer]

By some stroke of luck I have received a reply. My contact says he photographed the tools in various museums and believes that the curved handle was an integral part of the evolution of the American poll axe, which was of course, specifically intended for felling trees. Early Americans were looking for every advantage when they got here, looked at our trees and realized the inadequacy of their European axes. Also, developing some understanding of how brilliant Blanchard was, given all of his inventions, most of which were born to improve the industry of this country, it seems further unlikely that his copy lathe was intended to produce some cutesy marketing piece.

Eric Sloane was of the mindset the Victorians had to put curves, embellishments into everything, and since industrial age machines made it easy, that is what they did. The ax was arguably more important in 1750 than 1850, why wouldn't the curve and foot have come earlier if it was about performance?

 

[halfaxe]

Wrist comfort may be a factor. My hypothesis would test to see if a curved handle leaves the wrist in a more natural position relative to the arm at the time of impact. A straight handle would tend to impact when the wrist was more angled relative to the arm. Maybe not so much when felling a tree where you are hitting the same spot with ideal stance like a baseball bat with a strike zone, but limbing, swamping, and cutting wood at different heights perhaps.

 

[Chignecto Woodsman]

That racing argument is made a lot, but racing competitors are swinging for 20-30 seconds at a time rather than 1-8 hours (and 1 hour is a whole different game than 30 seconds, heck, 10 minutes is). You simply cannot extend your best accuracy and swing power for more than a few minutes, and both factors will compound into problems over an afternoon. It's the same as saying that an F1 Ferrari engine works well at 18,000 rpm so you should tune yours that way. You may win the street race but you'll be in the garage the rest of the afternoon (perhaps looking for a new engine). That racing axe users do something a certain way is just a poor argument for what you should do. They train specifically to have proper accuracy and energy output for extremely short bursts.

Cook's argument is for deviation, when you swing the axe and make minor adjustments to your wrist the straight haft will turn less and the curved haft more. That's what those images indicate and clearly mean you have more control, and can be more precise when wrist deviation does not translate to extreme edge deviation. Keep in mind as well that with a curved haft you are not simply turning on a single plane as with a straight haft, your wrist deviation affects two planes - making deviation much more sensitive.

I'm sure Cook did those side-by-side tests, and anyone else can do them if they doubt the results. They can quickly be substantiated (it makes more sense to say his claims have never been disproven). You can simply hold an axe parallel to the ground and see how the straight haft deviates on a single plane and the curved on two planes. Deviation on the second plane means that you may cut into a much larger section of material and prevent any cutting into your current chip, rather than just a poor angle resulting in poor penetration. As well, the power of a wrist flick would be limited, I think. It would be more useful in specific techniques such as lifting a chip. Just consider that your body is transmitting a force of 200+/- pounds and your wrist is only a minor factor. It may result in less loss of speed just prior to the point of impact but would not accelerate the axe. This would be more significant in larger trees and areas where you cannot have your feet at the cutting line. There also seems to be some benefit to a curved half in removing a stuck axe and during the backswing.

Edit: It was brought up about racing regulations. I asked a similar question earlier about the balance of the heads as they seem extremely poor in balance. Is this a condition that the axes must have certain curve of the handle/imbalance of the head so to leave more room for error and thus skill? There's no reason to use a single-bit head since we know a double-bit would be far superior to an axe hanging in balance below 45 degrees. If it is not in the regulations then it would be interesting to hear what is the argument.

 

[300Six]

Eric Sloane was of the mindset the Victorians had to put curves, embellishments into everything, and since industrial age machines made it easy, that is what they did. The ax was arguably more important in 1750 than 1850, why wouldn't the curve and foot have come earlier if it was about performance?

Eric was a consummate observer and studied his subjects thoroughly. To merely make a hand-comfort 'kink' at the very end of a straight half looks entirely out of place. But imparting a gentle 'S' shape to a haft all of a sudden makes it pleasant-looking to the eye.

 

[Bridger]

That racing argument is made a lot, but racing competitors are swinging for 20-30 seconds at a time rather than 1-8 hours (and 1 hour is a whole different game than 30 seconds, heck, 10 minutes is). You simply cannot extend your best accuracy and swing power for more than a few minutes, and both factors will compound into problems over an afternoon. It's the same as saying that an F1 Ferrari engine works well at 18,000 rpm so you should tune yours that way. You may win the street race but you'll be in the garage the rest of the afternoon (perhaps looking for a new engine). That racing axe users do something a certain way is just a poor argument for what you should do. They train specifically to have proper accuracy and energy output for extremely short bursts.

Check out some Basque endurance timbersports chopping events. They chop much longer than 20-30 seconds. You still see Keech and Tuatahi racers on curved handles being the norm.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Eric Sloane was of the mindset the Victorians had to put curves, embellishments into everything, and since industrial age machines made it easy, that is what they did. The ax was arguably more important in 1750 than 1850, why wouldn't the curve and foot have come earlier if it was about performance?

Found the picture I was looking for. Apparently this axe is estimated as being 2400 years old...

 

[Square_peg]

I'm sure Cook did those side-by-side tests, and anyone else can do them if they doubt the results.

How are you sure? He never mentioned them. I'm suggesting that we do the test. I'm happy to be one of the test subjects. But it wouldn't be wise to make conclusions based on one person.

And as for the assertion that axe racers can get away with a curved handle because they only work in short bursts that makes no sense at all. If anything the curved haft puts less stress on the hand and wrist and allows the user to work longer. But aside from that, axe racers depend on exactly placed blows to get through wood in the shortest time possible. It wouldn't pay to be sloppy. If there were some inaccuracy in a curved haft would it have to be offset by some other factor or racers wouldn't be using them.

The curve in a haft matches the natural way your grip aligns to your wrist. You twist your forearm and the haft twists in line with your forearm not on some crazy line 10" above your axe head. Try it for yourself and see. Pick up a curved haft and twist it. Is it moving like in Cook's sketch or is it moving in line with your forearm. I encourage you all to try this.

I've also encouraged you all to try this. Stand up. Let your arms dangle at your sides. Grasp a pencil in your hand. Now raise your arm up parallel to the floor. Is the pencil pointing straight forward or up at an angle? This answers why we have curved hafts.

 

[littleknife]

Axes in Europe were traditionally straight handled. I doubt that this was due to the primacy of any ergonomic principles.
I think ease of manufacture and tradition played major roles.
We live in a very individualistic society now and tend to forget how tightly regulated were the lives of our ancestors, including the forms and patterns of their everyday objects and tools.

Until very recently, most axe handles were still straight ones in Europe, at least on the continent. Only in todays global economy, due to the tide of cheap Chinese goods and the demise of local manufacture became the curved handles prevalent all over Europe too.

There is also another aspect which might explain the preference for straight handle, and that is human anatomy, or rather the normal variation within human anatomy.
People have not only different sized hands and hence grasps, but also the form and movement of their wrists is not exactly the same. A curve which feels comfortable to one might be uncomfortable to another person. Having held hundreds of axes with different curved handles, only a few feel comfortable to me, most I would describe as annoying or even “unnatural”. It is the same problem with the highly sculpted knife handles with finger grooves: they look pleasing to the eye (the main factor which determines executive decisions regarding what gets produced nowadays), but are not necessarily more comfortable, and definitely less versatile, than straight handles.

 

[300Six]

Found the picture I was looking for. Apparently this axe is estimated as being 2400 years old...

If you look closely at that haft you'll see that the owner meticulously selected that piece of wood (probably while it was still part of a tree) for it's inherent shape rather than dictate the curve himself. Obviously that knowledgeable and talented fellow wasn't interested in routinely making new hafts!

Below are before and after shots of an Ironwood (common name Blue Beech) that I dug and chopped out of the ground a couple of years ago so as to be able to incorporate a natural root curve into the handle of a walking cane. You'd be hard pressed to break this and my dad never managed to.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

If you look closely at that haft you'll see that the owner meticulously selected that piece of wood (probably while it was still part of a tree) for it's inherent shape rather than dictate the curve himself. Obviously that knowledgeable and talented fellow wasn't interested in routinely making new hafts!

Making hafts back then was no small chore, let alone one that elaborate! Since you couldn't just pop off down to the hardware store and buy a new one, a fellow willing to put as many hours into making a haft that nice was going to be dead certain he started with a quality piece of wood! Most axe finds with original hafts are much more simplistic in their build, but even those weren't a small investment of time. I figure most lay persons back then stopped when a haft was "good enough" whereas the fellow that crafted this fine specimen really put some heart and brain into the work.

 

[cityofthesouth]

Eric Sloane was of the mindset the Victorians had to put curves, embellishments into everything, and since industrial age machines made it easy, that is what they did. The ax was arguably more important in 1750 than 1850, why wouldn't the curve and foot have come earlier if it was about performance?

My specific opinion is that it did. The idea that it didn't is an assumption and I think, long held misconception. In that quote I was talking about the American poll axe in particular which would have begun to come into existence around the turn of the 18th century. I've now seen handles dated before the copy lathe and obviously what 42 just posted is significantly older, and the more I see, the more confident I am that curved handles came before the copy lathe to include the American Poll Axe. The significance of the poll axe and that time period, and the notion that the curved handle we know today was integral to its creation, is based on the idea that American immigrants weren't just cutting easy going pine - they encountered serious hardwoods and they created a superior axe in response. It's entirely possible that a unique American-style curved handle was a part of that creation. But again, curved handled tools, not just axes, already existed all over the world for centuries before that .............. and rereading my own post I realize, I said all of that then so maybe I'm not being clear.

I have been talking to 2 science professors to understand the concepts and it basically comes down to what Square_peg suggested - we need a real test. The only way to actually perform a real test is beyond what any of us can accomplish I think. The reason is that something very much like an axe head, with an axe handle, has to strike some device which can register the forces. Unless one of you has something like that, we're pretty much screwed. I think other, more simplistic tests would be interesting, but not necessarily conclusive. But to be clear - I'm totally down for.

And I'd like to defend the timber sports argument. Endurance isn't a factor since the only thing directly impacting endurance is how hard the axeman is swinging the tool (and as square_peg said, the ergonomics of the handle are a benefit to endurance). Someone who cut down trees for a living every day could most likely cut hairs off a gnats ass with any axe in any shape. He swung the thing all day, every day. He was looking for efficiency, just like in timber sports. And to be clear, the double bit axe was a mid 19th century invention - ie, after the copy lathe, decades, upon decades after Americans had been felling big trees with single bit axes. Sure, accuracy is connected to efficiency but at some point a professional surpasses the fundamentals and moves on to whatever benefit he can get to make his job easier. That, and I simply don't buy the accuracy argument. The stick, in the direction the axe is moving, is still straight.

 

[300Six]

Making hafts back then was no small chore, let alone one that elaborate! Since you couldn't just pop off down to the hardware store and buy a new one, a fellow willing to put as many hours into making a haft that nice was going to be dead certain he started with a quality piece of wood! Most axe finds with original hafts are much more simplistic in their build, but even those weren't a small investment of time. I figure most lay persons back then stopped when a haft was "good enough" whereas the fellow that crafted this fine specimen really put some heart and brain into the work.

Finally we're on to something! Whether graced with a straight or pretzel-shaped haft, a tool imparts exactly the same amount of energy when velocity, weight and radius of the arc are the same.
A split stave was far and away the best method for obtaining a 'zero-runout grain' piece of wood for making a haft. Not a one of these blanks would have been dead straight and folks with a good eye would have capitalized on (and even selected for) most comfortable orientation of the bends. A gentle 'S' shape is both 1) very strong and 2) accentuates the back hand grip without compromising striking orientation of the head.
I don't doubt that 150-200 years ago there was/were some legendary chopper(s) or tool makers out there who devoted an inordinate time to selecting hafts, and people and manufacturers then fashionably emulated those choices without fully understanding why and what they were doing.