Questions about sharing

[Kevin R. Cashen]

edited 12/10/07 to add- I cannot change all that has been written in this thread but those that have yet to read it should know the following- The author of the most recent article is one of the good guys and has contacted me to confirm my suspicions that this was all one huge error of omission. I have been informed that all appropriate credits were included but got misplaced between sending and printing. This is what I really wanted to believe all along as I have encountered so few bad eggs in this business that one needs to take pause and give the benefit of the doubt in these situations and permit folks the opportunity to clarify whether they are good or bad eggs.

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I often get e-mails requesting the use of information I have put out on the net, I always immediately grant it since I wouldn’t have put it there if I didn’t want it freely distributed. I volunteered that stuff so the most I should expect is credit or acknowledgement of it’s origin. I do get amusement when I see people pontificating on a subject they knew nothing about a month earlier, and using wording that is incredibly familiar, if you know what I mean. I have even had folks tell me how I should do something using descriptions that I wrote.

Common knowledge does not belong to me, but if I have done the research and decide to share with others so they won’t have to, I have done a favor that I can live with the payback being that they pass it along and help a couple other people themselves. When folks on the internet take that information and claim it as their own, I find it mildly irritating at most but generally a humorous human quirk to observe. When credit for something I did goes to somebody else in print it feels a little different to me.

 

[Fiddleback]

What is your folks take on all this, am I being too sensitive?

You are not IMO. I worked under a researcher, and this kind of thing happened all the time. But the work in that case was directed by and for him. In this case I think you should get a mention.

 

[Jeff Clark]

Maybe you should outright tell people that you want to be given credit in their writings, many people just aren't very aware of what they appropriate. You could add your logo or name to pictures. You could insert your name or logo in the scenes that you shoot (sort of like "product placement" in movies). With these elements in or on the pictures it takes willful manipulation to remove your name from the pictures. You could make people sign a release that they will give you credit for your contributions. If you keep a copy of that and your original pictures you have a case for copyright infringement. I wouldn't actually plan on pursuing a legal case, simply put in the hooks to increase your users' awareness of when they are misappropriating your work.

Public awareness of your expertise is part of your stock in trade. People pay a lot of money to PR companies to get name and brand recognition. You need to promote your reputation and not end up competing against your own work. If someone else takes credit for your labors they become devalued. What was your knowledge becomes "common knowledge" and loses its market value. Get pushy, or at least get conspicuous.

 

[steelshaper]

Not that this helps much but I think that your efforts on this forum have built you a reputation as being THE GUY! I feel that for the most part people on here have a huge respect for you. I know I do. The #1 reason is the effort you put into sharing what you know so please dont stop. I also believe you are working for the good of us all (knifemakers) and such selflessness is often not rewarded. At the same time you are building an army of people who know that they could not have done it without your help and some day I think it will pay off for you. (I.E. RECOGNITION)

Or you could go the other route and use your advanced understanding of the art and science and come up with some crazy gimmick and get famous.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Good tips Jeff, as I said this is not the first time I left the crediting to the other party only to be dissapointed, so I am now incorporating my own credit right into the image, particularly my metallograpy, I would get seriously peeved if somebody stole my metallogrpahy after the work I put into it. But sometimes you get a case where somebody asks you a favor and you take time to do it but are busy to you send it off assuming they will do the right thing since they asked. It is too bad that we have to stamp our brand on every little thing these days in order to avoid these issues.

I don't feel anything has ever been taken from me since I gave it away, just sometimes human behavior can make one begin to feel a little too philanthropic about things.

 

[LRB]

No. You are not being too sensitive, especially if the person, or publication is aware of the origins of the material. I thought it was SOP for writers, or publishers to get permission from, or at least give credits to the originator of the material they print. I assume that if the material is not copyrighted, you probably have no legal recourse, but it seems that common manners would dictate giving one credit, for ones work. Have you contacted the offenders? I realize that now, is after the fact, but perhaps they may change their OP's for any future publications involving your research.

 

[Gene Martin]

Since the writers are being paid for the articles written, you should get a mention at a bare minimum. Realistically, maybe you should write and submit an article and then you get paid.

To use your chats, pics, or diagrams, things you have personally done, without any mention or credit, really amounts to theft of intellectual property.

Maybe you should discuss it with Tim and let him know that if he uses your pics or whatever, you will get credit or the well just ran dry. Otherwise, it makes Tim look to be the real expert in all areas.

I'm not bashing Tim, I'm saying that right is right.

Gene

 

[fitzo]

In the scientific world, it is considered good manners when writing a paper to insert a final paragraph giving acknowledgement to those not directly in the employ of the author who provided support for the publication. Many authors even extend this to their direct assistants.

In my field, a person would definitely be downright pissed if their work was published without being given credit.

Was this an image, and was it "used by permission"?

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

...Or you could go the other route and use your advanced understanding of the art and science and come up with some crazy gimmick and get famous.

Indeed I think it is time I listen to folks who have been shouting at me for years to write my own stuff and submit it, but I just don't do the crazy gimmick thing, real straight facts are hard to get printed as they are not good fluff or human interest stories.

 

[sunshadow]

Kevin,
First, I am deeply grateful for the information you have been generous enough to share!

I spent 25 years as a professional photographer, and one of my RIT professors is living on a settlement by Sibleys Department Stores on copyright violations on an image he shot for National Geographic in 1968

As to the issue of ownership/credit for your intellectual property (photos, research etc. from the time an image is captured in discernable form (latent image on negative, electronic data from imaging sensor etc) it is your intellectual property, and you own copyright of that image. You can grant license of reproduction, sell rights, sell the copyright, or give the copyright, if an image is used without credit and/or permission you certainly have legal rights, you have until 1 year AFTER you discover violation to register copyright on an image of your creation

I do not know how intellectual; property laws apply to your research, but I believe anything you write is similarly protected once committed into discernable permanent form.
That said, technically anyone using your written work uncredited is at best plageurising which is rude, and if they are using it in something they are getting paid for it is theft,
I believe that the penalties for copyright violation for unregistered work are basically whatever money was made from the sale of it, once the work is registered it is something like $100,000 per copy made (several photo labs got sued by Olen Mills for copying portraits, and the copynegative was one copy, each print made from it was an additional copy at $100,000 per copy, those labs were, needless to say bankrupted)

Generally when a magazine, newspaper, etc wants to use any of my work whether they are paying me for it or not I request photo credit in writing as a condition of release, I am not litiginous enough to pursue the folks who in good faith forgot to place the credit, or used my work without release, but if I was a real asshat it would be my legal right.

Generally if someone uses your work and claims it as their own you definitely have a right to be indignant!

Thank you for the information you have so freely shared.
That said,

A large proportion of what I know and pass on of steel heat treating courtesy of Kevin R. Cashen

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[Kevin R. Cashen]

Since the writers are being paid for the articles written, you should get a mention at a bare minimum. Realistically, maybe you should write and submit an article and then you get paid.

To use your chats, pics, or diagrams, things you have personally done, without any mention or credit, really amounts to theft of intellectual property.

Maybe you should discuss it with Tim and let him know that if he uses your pics or whatever, you will get credit or the well just ran dry. Otherwise, it makes Tim look to be the real expert in all areas.

I'm not bashing Tim, I'm saying that right is right.

Gene

No, NO, NO! Tim is the good guy! He is the contrast! he always gives credit, where credit is due. I included my mention of him to show why I like helping out. Tim Zowada has been so good about crediting my contributions that he could walk into my office anytime day or night and help himself if the wanted to. I jsut assumed other folks would be like Tim, and often they have not and that is too bad.

 

[Luke Sheridan]

When I didn’t volunteer information, but my input is requested and I took time out to help, or created images that I didn’t have until they were asked for, shouldn’t I be able to expect a mention or credit? This is not the first time this has happened and I am beginning to think I am a little too generous with my input in some areas.

What is your folks take on all this, am I being too sensitive?

Not at all, I think it's only fair to expect a credit for your work. Some people have confused free with public domain and it's a disservice to everyone involved. Almost all work is copyrighted and getting something into the public domain is not something that just happens. You do have rights.

The sad fact of the matter is that you have to proactively protect your copyright or else people WILL infringe upon it.

I suggest that for the work you do give away freely to license it with an appropriate license, try the Creative Commons licensing scheme(here or here) and find a license that fits what work you are doing. Once you have added the proper text to your work you have a very clear cut case to present to a copyright infringer in order to get them to do what you want. Creative Commons licenses are all non-exclusive. So you can permit the general public to use your work under a Creative Commons license and then enter into a separate and different non-exclusive license with someone else, for example, in exchange for money if you want to further down the line.

If you want to grant permission on a case-by-case basis you should probably contact a copyright lawyer and get a generic license/contract drawn up and make people sign it.

btw, where did they get your copyright materials, was it from you?

 

[steelshaper]

Indeed I think it is time I listen to folks who have been shouting at me for years to write my own stuff and submit it, but I just don't do the crazy gimmick thing, real straight facts are hard to get printed as they are not good fluff or human interest stories.

I was joking about the crazy gimmick thing I know you are against that. But writing your own articles and being a spokesman for the science is a good thing. If you want the recognition you have to stand up and speak loud to be heard. The point is more how loud are you willing to be and how badly do you want the recognition? You do get it here, so what do you have to do to get it elsewhere?


Also as a side note maybe more of us knifemakers should be aware of who helps us and help promote them. I would like to see some of your work in Blade should I right them and tell them what I want to see?

 

[sunshadow]

http://www.copyright.gov/

is the link to the government copyright office for anyone who needs it

My quick read on Creative Commons is that they are actively promoting moving everything into the public domain, therefore I would approach any of their copyright forms with a bucket of salt.

I have several songs I wrote copyrighted directly through the copyright office, and my images are catalogued so that if I ever need to register them it is simple. The stuff I have copyrighted was easier to do than filling out a deli order.

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[Kevin R. Cashen]

I am heat treating today so I have tiem to type while I wait for the salts to regulate.

Folks this is just a matter of my asking if I am being over sensitive about what I should expect when I do favors. Any materials discussed were freely given by me as a favor, I just assumed I would be credited. Perhaps I am being a prima donna and not understanding the concept of giving something as a favor, so I was looking for input from others before I took time to consider how I do things in the future.

Any of the legal talk, I will not address since it is absurd, I think we would have learned how riduculous that sort of thing is from another recent thread.

No, I am just asking if I am out of line to feel slighted when I am not credited for a contribution.

I will not even go into details, since I have not even aproached the person I did the favor for in this instance, as this is a more general problem in the business and I am just considering how I should do things in the future. Forget contracts or permission, when I take time to answer questions or provide material for pieces that will be in print as a favor am I justified in being miffed when I don't get an acknowledgment considering I blabber all the time for free on the net?

 

[sunshadow]

I think it is rude for them not to credit you,
The information did not spring fully formed from THEIR forehead, but some folks are a little uneducated in the basics of intellectual courtesy, perhaps you could suggest a credit line when helping folks who have not had the courtesy the last time?

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[Kevin R. Cashen]

Actually I think I may have to take some responsibilty if I do not stamp images boldy with my name, the person doing the piece could include a mention only to have the publisher/editor drop it, which could have been the most recent case. But in the past I have had it happen elsewhere in a more brazen fashion.

If nothing else, let this thread be a tip on how folks should incorporate their name in a way that editors cannot simply ignore. Information is another matter, is a series of e-mails or a phone call or two worth an acknowledgement in a project?

 

[sunshadow]

Actually I think I may have to take some responsibilty if I do not stamp images boldy with my name, the person doing the piece could include a mention only to have the publisher/editor drop it, which could have been the most recent case. But in the past I have had it happen elsewhere in a more brazen fashion.

If nothing else, let this thread be a tip on how folks should incorporate their name in a way that editors cannot simply ignore. Information is another matter, is a series of e-mails or a phone call or two worth an acknowledgement in a project?

Yes, absolutely!
-Page

 

[Rob!]

You certainly have the legal right to regognition for your contribution - but perhaps you should openly declare an interest in that right.

As a simple example, My Mom taught me basic math before I ever started kindergarten. I took that knowledge as now being my own - and I passed it on to my kids, without ever crediting their grandmother. There was no ill intended and I'm sure no offence was taken. My kids have done the same for my grandkids - and that's all good.

If I give someone information and knowledge, it is theirs to keep and use freely and as they please - unless I request confidentiality.

I'm not sure I've ever had an original thought. Everything there is to think of has already been thought of by someone else.

Note that this is only my own moral perspective. You certainly have legal rights that you may wish to pursue.

Rob!

 

[Sam Salvati]

You should get some Matherton Forge Tshirts made up, and wear them anytime you use a photo with you in them.

Kevin it was never my intent to do so, but if I have done this I apologise. I am unendingly grateful for the information you provide both directly to singular persons and the public as a whole. I would feel kind of pissed if someone used my pictures and direct info without a mention, not claiming it as they're own but not mentioning otherwise.