Questions about sharing

One can look at this issue from a slightly different point of view, also.

For simple common sense if not common courtesy, one should go out of their way to give credit where due, lest it come back to bite them in the ass.

Consider the impact on the author if Kevin were less of a gentleman and came out swinging and naming names.
 
Kevin,

I'll echo all of the sentiments above about our collective appreciation of your hard work and willingness to share. All of your sharing is truly appreciated. For what it's worth, I have a whole lot of conversations that go something like "Kevin Cashen says...", or "I heard from Kevin Cashen that...".

You absolutely have a right to be miffed. While I agree that taking the path of litigation is likely a silly response, what you might do is submit a letter to the editor that simply states what your contribution was and asking them to issue a correction in the next issue to credit you appropriately. It may have been an oversight or unintentional omission, in which case the problem is fixed. If it was intentional, at least you have documentation of your complaint and grounds to be a little less sharing with certain parties in the future.

I'm all for sharing, but sometimes you have to cut the abusers off. That's just the way it is.

Thanks for continuing the good fight. We all really appreciate it.

-d
 
Over the years there seems to have been a decrease in manners and ethics. Complicate that by the internet where images move around rapidly.Best to add your name to the photos [ and to microscope photos add the scale please ] so someone else doesn't get the credit !...In scientific research it was easy to tell when someone had a big ego -the paper only had his name not the assistants !
 
Kevin,
I think common courtesy would dictate someone mentioning you as a source of information. I don't know about copyright and don't want to need to.
As to photos, I always understood that is more than a discourtesy to not credit the photo to the creator of the photo. I think the photographer owns the photo regardless of what it is a photo of, so giving credit for a photo used is pretty improtant. If that photo is sold by the photographer, then I assume credit isn't probably still required, but I would expect it would still be the courteous thing to do? But you were talking about information or photos or images you provided "gratis". Credit, ought to be at a minimum, a courtesy. If the writer incorporates in his writings your ideas but not your words, I don't know. If the writer uses your exact words or photo, or image you created, I believe credit is much more than a courtesy.
 
Sam Salvati said:
You should get some Matherton Forge Tshirts made up, and wear them anytime you use a photo with you in them:D.

Kevin it was never my intent to do so, but if I have done this I apologise. I am unendingly grateful for the information you provide both directly to singular persons and the public as a whole. I would feel kind of pissed if someone used my pictures and direct info without a mention, not claiming it as they're own but not mentioning otherwise.
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I still have time to type, Do you realize how long it takes for a low temp salt tube to regulate on a cold December day in Michigan?

Sam you are fine, what is on the net is public as far as I am concerned and what's mine is yours here. I think the internet is a wonderful place, yes any mall ninja or pimply faced troll can pass themsleves off as an expert, but anybody who wants to use this ultra powerful resource can. And if they do it right in a way that benefits others they can go far in the public eye. But the magic is that anybody can do it! And do it on their own, without having to fork out payolla, smooze and kiss ass in order to be beholden to political factions, that is a precious thing we should all appreciate. Breaking into the printed media is a different story and because my makeup will not allow me to practice those aforementioned measures, in print I like to think of myself as one of bladesmithings best kept secrets.

I have enjoyed promoting my studies through internet where it can reach so vast an audience and not be hacked and slashed into another puff piece by an editor somewhere. You do me an honor by using what I share here.
 
You've always been known here on the forums to give valuable info away like it was easy for you to come by. We understand you spend countless hours obtaining it just to use it yourself and pass it off like we were all your best friends. My advice is to publish a simple book for dummies like us and pay yourself at the same time. We would buy it.

The research you do shouldnt be on the internet for everybody to use. You paid your dues and became an expert in your field of study. We cannot even understand what the hell you are talking about most of the time but realize we need at least the basics of your knowledge just to make a knife we are proud of. You could write a book in your sleep and it would be over my head.

I think you have come to the point that you know its time to start getting paid for it.

"Metalurgy for Dummies" $29.95
 
deker said:
...You absolutely have a right to be miffed. While I agree that taking the path of litigation is likely a silly response, what you might do is submit a letter to the editor that simply states what your contribution was and asking them to issue a correction in the next issue to credit you appropriately. It may have been an oversight or unintentional omission, in which case the problem is fixed. If it was intentional, at least you have documentation of your complaint and grounds to be a little less sharing with certain parties in the future....
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I personally wouldn't even go that far, it would be like crying over spilled milk. It is just that few things give me more pleasure than sharing information with people, I will admit to getting a huge fulfilling rush when I see lightbulb go on over somebodies head that I helped flip the switch on. It is troubling for me to have reason any time in the future to say "sorry I really can't help you".

I guess this is the flip side of recent conversations about people wanting to make knowledge their own personal property, if one gives it freely they need to decide how "free" is "free" and what do they need to feel good about sharing it. No matter how many problems one has from sharing I would still take it any day over trying to monopolize it or keeping silly secrets.
 
deker said:
I'll echo all of the sentiments above about our collective appreciation of your hard work and willingness to share. All of your sharing is truly appreciated. For what it's worth, I have a whole lot of conversations that go something like "Kevin Cashen says...", or "I heard from Kevin Cashen that...".
Thanks for continuing the good fight. We all really appreciate it.

-d
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I have conversations liek those too hehe:).

Kevin R. Cashen said:
No matter how many problems one has from sharing I would still take it any day over trying to monopolize it or keeping silly secrets.
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Everyone is different, but personally I feel you are 100% right Kevin when you say this, while no doubt alot of people have written long and well explained messages trying to help a person out, then have nothing come of it, it is still a good thing to do. It is good for the craft as a whole for information to flow freely, you never know who you might be helping.
 
Hi Kevin,
First, let me say how much I appreciate the fact that you are so free with information. You've helped me immensely in many knifemaking ways. :)
As to your question, I'm not sure. It's kind of a muddy situation. One of the axioms I live by is "freely you have received, freely give". Each person will interpret that differently, probably. I take it to mean that most of what I know was learned by someone else and passed onto me freely, and that I should pass it on, freely. Also that anything I learn myself that would be helpful to others, should be given freely.
I think that each of us desires recognition, but we really don't need it. On the other hand, if you make your living by selling information, then I think it's ok to insist on recognition, as well as payment.
I apologize if the above sounds a little rambling or nonsensical. I was up until 2:00 this morning, so that's my excuse. :D

P.S. I haven't read my copy of Blade yet; what article are you referring to?
 
fitzo said:
One can look at this issue from a slightly different point of view, also.

For simple common sense if not common courtesy, one should go out of their way to give credit where due, lest it come back to bite them in the ass.

Consider the impact on the author if Kevin were less of a gentleman and came out swinging and naming names.
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I will not allow myself to think that this anything intentional but instead a careless mistake. Intentional slights inspire righteous indignation even in pushovers like me, careless mistakes leave us wondering how to best avoid them in the future, and perhaps some moderate irritation in the present.:) Many other folks in the past have accepted my help with a fleeting nod, just with all the prostituting we can do to get into those printed pages it is hard to give up ones meager cut without dissapointment.
 
Phillip Patton said:
...P.S. I haven't read my copy of Blade yet; what article are you referring to?
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Such specifics are irrelevent as this is not an isolated situation, I am sure many others have grappled with these issues, besides naming specifics instead of dealing with the general topic would make this far more negative than the situation warrants in my opinion. Mistakes are made, but when enough people make the same mistake you beggin to wonder how to proactively handle it in the future. You may feel wounded but if there was no clear malicious intent you simply adjust your skills in dealing with people and move on.

I believe it is often a careless mistake. My son just had a birthday, when opening presents he got talking and forgot to thank one of his friends for a gift, I could tell the friend felt his gift was not appreciated as much as the others, but my son just got careless and misplaced his manners. His friend, could have flew into a rage and got nasty with him for blowing off his gift, but that would have been a horrible breach of manners completely out of proportion to the original faux pas, bringing disgrace to both.

Now the high temp tube is coming up to temp... while not accurate, torches and forges are a whole lot quicker:(
 
I saw it. Upon reading I was kind surprised to not find mention of your name. I "thought" I knew where they were. I blew it off as someone else being as "well-equipped" in the shop as you, especially after reading the credit. I don't personally know the author but I would think that it was an oversight, a misplaced credit that an editor didn't catch, an honest mistake.

That light bulb you mentioned burns mighty bright in my shop when it comes to metallurgical understanding because of you :)

If you were to put a price on the information you so graciously give us, I would buy it in a heart beat :thumbup:

One consolation Kevin, if we're on the "same page" ;) as far as the article in question, it is " Part 1 of 2 " and there is still time for redemption
 
Sam Salvati said:
I have conversations liek those too hehe:).



Everyone is different, but personally I feel you are 100% right Kevin when you say this, while no doubt alot of people have written long and well explained messages trying to help a person out, then have nothing come of it, it is still a good thing to do. It is good for the craft as a whole for information to flow freely, you never know who you might be helping.
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Perhaps you Sam, should have never come to me and waisted countless hours and expencive materials learning from me when you could just to come here and blow smoke up Kevins ass. Kevin, with all the internet Frankenstiens you have helped to create, what with all the free knowledge you throw around like candy, the industry is not any better off. You say there are no secrets, that it's bullshit! If I say something in my shop and say that is where it stays and then see it all over the internet, it is not a compliment to me, it is a stab in the back. Fine, call me an A hole and that I am not a team player. If it is MY team and you sell all the plays to the other team then you are a traitor. You guys are only helping yourselves to your own ego's, and folks who have spent their entire lives learning this stuff to make a living, would appreciate a little more discretion. But, revel in the knowledge that you are helping, sleep well!
 
Odinblades said:
....you sell all the plays to the other team then you are a traitor. You guys are only helping yourselves to your own ego's, and folks who have spent their entire lives learning this stuff to make a living, would appreciate a little more discretion....
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Huh?? :confused: Did I just stumble into someones secret fishin' hole in a small trout steam?

I always thought this lake had enough fish for everyone.

Rob!
 
Kevin, I will take a different approach to your postings and photographs.

I don't take them as gospel or fact. I read the post, look at the photos, and go do some research if I am not quite sure. I find you a great teacher and source of information from which to learn. I can spot when someone is quoting you most every time.

You and mete are an invaluable resource to this forum , and to the knife,making community in general. I for one thank you for your efforts and time. If someone else does not credit your work, that is their loss. I feel your credit would bolster their article more.

If they don't thank you let me do it for them:

THANK YOU KEVIN FOR YOU KNOWLEDGE AND WORK !
Stacy
 
Odinblades said:
...and folks who have spent their entire lives learning this stuff to make a living, would appreciate a little more discretion...
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If I spent my entire life learning something, I'd want to save the next guy from having to do the same. It's called "progress", and not having to re-invent the wheel constantly. I just don't get your thinking here...
 
Odinblades said:
Perhaps you Sam, should have never come to me and waisted countless hours and expencive materials learning from me when you could just to come here and blow smoke up Kevins ass. Kevin, with all the internet Frankenstiens you have helped to create, what with all the free knowledge you throw around like candy, the industry is not any better off. You say there are no secrets, that it's bullshit! If I say something in my shop and say that is where it stays and then see it all over the internet, it is not a compliment to me, it is a stab in the back. Fine, call me an A hole and that I am not a team player. If it is MY team and you sell all the plays to the other team then you are a traitor. You guys are only helping yourselves to your own ego's, and folks who have spent their entire lives learning this stuff to make a living, would appreciate a little more discretion. But, revel in the knowledge that you are helping, sleep well!
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I've got to say that while I respect your right to have an opinion, I completely disagree with every sentiment you've posted. If you're unwilling to share the knowledge you've accumulated over your years of hard work, that's fine. Nobody is asking you to. I would however ask you to think about what you would know had nobody taught you anything during your career. If you had been handed simply steel and fire, and nobody had "given" you any information on heat treatment, I doubt very highly that you'd be able to create a blade of any quality.

You must also understand that what Kevin does is read and compile existing information, published by science and industry, study it, and do a damn fine job of distilling it for those who may not be able to put all the pieces together from the raw data. There's nothing "secret" about the information, he's simply making it accessible. If information shouldn't be accessible, we should certainly fire all of the librarians, all they do is help people find information that's already out there!

Regardless of your or my views on the sharing of information, calling out a student of yours, in a public forum, as wasting your time because he has also learned from a source other than you is just reprehensible behavior. I for one would be just fine if you decided not to share anything at all with any of us here on the forums.

Sam, I'd like to offer any of the meager information I've accumulated to you at any time I can help. I sincerely glad that one thing you did not learn from this gentleman is how to comport yourself in a civil society.

There's my $.02, and I won't even charge you for it.

-d
 
I'm with Deker,
I worked damn hard for 20 years trying to figure stuff out on my own, reading what I could find, getting lots of bad info and some good from the trade magazines, then distilling what truth I could out of that in the fire of my forge. It was a slow frustrating crawl! 3 years ago I was introduced to a community of knife makers who feel that the way for everyone to improve the craft is sharing of information, much like musicians getting together for a jam session. What that community has done for my learning curve has been phenomonal! To all of the craftsmen who have at some level shared knowlege and advice (especially the goldsmith I was allowed to watch work for 2 weeks when I was 10 who gave me enough information that when I was 18 I was able to start making jewelry based on those memories) a heartfelt thanks!
I pass the favor forward to new folks when I can because I would spare them the frustration of what I went through. Kevin's customers will buy Kevin's work because they appreciate the craftsmanship and the aesthetic of his work, people buy my work because they like what is in their hand when they pick it up. If they don't then either my work wasn't good enough to stand on it's own, or it's not their style. While there are an ever increasing number of new smiths out there, craftsmanship and honesty will allow the true craftsmen to prosper. As someone who has done teaching there is nothing more gratifying than seeing your student do well.
There are no secrets in metal. At some level your work will tell the educated how it was made.

Sam, I look forward to sharing an anvil with you again

-Page
 
Odinblades said:
Perhaps you Sam, should have never come to me and waisted countless hours and expencive materials learning from me when you could just to come here and blow smoke up Kevins ass. Kevin, with all the internet Frankenstiens you have helped to create, what with all the free knowledge you throw around like candy, the industry is not any better off. You say there are no secrets, that it's bullshit! If I say something in my shop and say that is where it stays and then see it all over the internet, it is not a compliment to me, it is a stab in the back. Fine, call me an A hole and that I am not a team player. If it is MY team and you sell all the plays to the other team then you are a traitor. You guys are only helping yourselves to your own ego's, and folks who have spent their entire lives learning this stuff to make a living, would appreciate a little more discretion. But, revel in the knowledge that you are helping, sleep well!
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John, I must confess to not really uderstanding a bit of this post, perhaps this was better off as a PM to Sam since there appears to be a personal thing going on here, either way I have nothing to do with it.
 
Kevin.......I think that you should insist on credit, particularly when something is going to be published somewhere other than here by someone who you arene't having direct dealings with. While you may be overwhelmed with orders now if you suddenly get a wild hair and decide to set of a mid tech line or something like that, you will want all of the press you can get...lol. Plus, it's just what is right and fair. With that said, I implore you to continue giving advice:D There has been a lot of stink raised on here recently about "secrets". If some knifemakers do not want to give out information, that is their call. However, there a a great number of guys who are ready willing and able tohelp their fellow knifemakers. Aside from the kindness and generosity issues, I think this speaks volumes for the makers confidence in their work and their place in the knife business. I, for one, am very grateful. If you want to see what the forums and a few trips to shows and hammer-ins can do for you, take a look at the two knives on my home page. That is what 2 years of watching and listening can do even if you can only work on your craft intermitently at times.:thumbup: The bottom line is that I have progressed at a much faster rate than I would have going at it solo and yet, I do not see customers jumping ship from Kevin and the host of others who have offered me help and advice ot suddenly start buying my pitiful stuff instead, so I am sure that we will all be happy in the end:D Jusr give credit where credit is due. If I eventually get to the point where I am going to be asked for advice, I will be sure to tell those people that I learned about X from such and such smith.
 
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