R&D,18th c.American axe

crbnSteeladdict said:
The angle on the haft vs the the poll plane reminds me of old Plumb axes(top right).
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Now THAT very feature-that downwardly-inclined line of the entire head-fascinates me.
Thanks for these cool pictures(looks like some uber sexy grind-lines on them too),
And you've actually have posted a photo of a hand-made one with Just such a curve,way back in the beginning of the thread.
Wassup with that curve,i wonder?
And why and more importantly-Wherefore?
There's one regional German pattern like that,the Harzer,and even more radically curved Ukrainian jobs,but what nags at me is that it possibly stems from a certain Pre-bending at a pre-form stage.
They welded it bent like that,and then in the process of peining the blade wider that bend straightened gradually,till the toe ended up in a straight line with the back...

I have a really tough time with getting that straight line,by any means that i devised yet.All except for one of the above were Cut straight(kinda admission of defeat,not that the originally axes` weren't hot-cut to profile,but still...:(
 
Since i'm such a lowlife my view of this page is infested by commercials,and,having used the names Stohler and Stricker in vain so many times,many of commercials are ebay listings of those!:)
So i've got to stare at these beautiful shapes,as punishment for not being able to Get there(yet!:))

Like this,say:https://imgur.com/Zt3sHXd

And what caused that wave in the grain at top of that eye?...Not the effect we discuss above,by chance?

(photo of acid-etched top-view finally loaded,for what it's worth:https://imgur.com/upaiDRK )
 
junkenstien said:
You gonna test it out it sure looks like it would do the business.Like the straight edge you could grind it to a rockaway if you wanted curves.If you start selling them i want on the list.
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The first barely-passable version has already been mailed to the testing lab(the most reputable one that i know of).We should hear back from them in a while.

I'm denser than normally today,sorry,and just realized i kinda missed that,about Rockaway and curves...could you please elaborate?

Yes,IF i could ever manage to produce these reliably and to a quality standards,you're on the List!
(we're still what,14 test-pieces away?...and my poor old PH still in the basket...it may be a good while...)
 
I like it a LOT Jake! To me it screams for a period, straight haft. Air dried, hand riven shag bark hickory.
I want to mention that I called the Mercer Museum yesterday. I found out that they still have all of the axes in the book "Ancient Carpenters Tools" Most of the axes are still in the same displays as Henry Mercer put them when he built the Museum. Even better yet, the Museum said it would welcome someone doing a inspection and study of all their axes. The Mercer Museum is in Doylestown, Pa., just north of Philadelphia. Didn't I read a recent post of yours where you visited Philly recently? I hope some of you other guys also get to visit this Museum someday.
 
Old Axeman said:
I like it a LOT Jake! To me it screams for a period, straight haft. Air dried, hand riven shag bark hickory.
I want to mention that I called the Mercer Museum yesterday. I found out that they still have all of the axes in the book "Ancient Carpenters Tools" Most of the axes are still in the same displays as Henry Mercer put them when he built the Museum. Even better yet, the Museum said it would welcome someone doing a inspection and study of all their axes. The Mercer Museum is in Doylestown, Pa., just north of Philadelphia. Didn't I read a recent post of yours where you visited Philly recently? I hope some of you other guys also get to visit this Museum someday.
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I thank you most sincerely,Sir...Just cannot be more pleased that what's coming out of the forge can appeal to someone who spent so much time looking at axes and using them and thinking about them...That's incredibly encouraging,and we sojer on with a lighter heart!

Thanks a Lot for that Mercer House reference,and it's fantastic that the collections are intact,i will try contrive to get there to measure some of the originals...(just to see them would be incredible...).
It just so happens that my mother lives in Philadelphia...:)...
As soon as you mentioned Mercer collection it rang a bell.Not that i can still remember why,but it instantly did.From reading Sloan,or in some connection to Some past research.
I could never overemphasize the importance of this connection to the craftsmen of the past.That is how all knowledge used to be passed on,till the Industrial Age introduced this disconnect,and we Can bridge that with a bit of effort...
 
crbnSteeladdict said:
The line between eye and heel should became a curve.
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Ah,i See that now,thank you.So that's the distinguishing feature of the Rockaway in general?
Such curve is probably a more natural consequence of forging than a straight line;it'd take less work.
It may possibly relate to convex blade section as well,that is where the mass for that bulge that becomes a curve in 2D would come from.
The originals such as Stohler and Stricker axes have very strange lines,very subtle and difficult to capture.
They're neither straight nor out and out curved...Some Mennonite magic that comes from a very long,uninterrupted tradition,thoughtful and deliberate...
 
jake pogg said:
Ah,i See that now,thank you.So that's the distinguishing feature of the Rockaway in general?
Such curve is probably a more natural consequence of forging than a straight line;it'd take less work.
It may possibly relate to convex blade section as well,that is where the mass for that bulge that becomes a curve in 2D would come from.
The originals such as Stohler and Stricker axes have very strange lines,very subtle and difficult to capture.
They're neither straight nor out and out curved...Some Mennonite magic that comes from a very long,uninterrupted tradition,thoughtful and deliberate...
Click to expand...
I do not know if you have already seen this pdf about a evolution of the shape of Rockaway pattern( I posted it last year).
https://craftsofnj.org/images/sitemedia/toolshed/Tool Shed No177-201409.pdf
What can I say, I like to buy abused tools. Not sure if this McKinnon bit up poll can give you some new insight about construction of Rockaway pattern axe.
 
crbnSteeladdict said:
What can I say, I like to buy abused tools. Not sure if this McKinnon bit up poll can give you some new insight about construction of Rockaway pattern axe.
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You must be kidding-this is Priceless.Things like this are the absolute gems,rare and extremely valuable...
You're Very wise to obtain these,and lucky to have access and ability to do so.
Thank you SO much for sharing this,and all other valuable data you've contributed.
 
jake pogg said:
Ah,i See that now,thank you.So that's the distinguishing feature of the Rockaway in general?
Such curve is probably a more natural consequence of forging than a straight line;it'd take less work.
It may possibly relate to convex blade section as well,that is where the mass for that bulge that becomes a curve in 2D would come from.
The originals such as Stohler and Stricker axes have very strange lines,very subtle and difficult to capture.
They're neither straight nor out and out curved...Some Mennonite magic that comes from a very long,uninterrupted tradition,thoughtful and deliberate...
Click to expand...

“Mennonite Magic” is powerful on many fronts. :thumbsup:
 
Thanks again you guys...
Today was the day to pay close attention to that Mercer House unfinished one,with the bit being inserted,that two-stage forgings(p.8 of this thread).
This is the result of 8 hours forging:https://imgur.com/4h8ZX6L
(the idea was not to copy that,the example being early 1900's,but to try to intuit which details would get me closer to the common ancestry of all these).

Mixed feelings.On one hand i feel that i came just a smidgeon closer to that ineffable Mennonite Plainness.Pleased with that.

Also slight disappointment that as hard as i look,Seeing is still very challenging,and i notice way too much detail only After i've already gone some other way...

So quite dissatisfied with my learning ability.
All else went well,good welds,5160 bit,the last of my good new 1095 for poll.

That photo of a lovely broken example generously provided by CrbnSteeladdict confirms that many of them had the poll hard-plated very thinly,1/4" or so.(it makes a lot of sense,the softer stuff beneath ammortizes the effort;my old US made Vulcan anvil,steel over cast,is built on that principle as well).
So that 1/4" 1095 went to a very good use.

In spite of my hopes and efforts to reduce the mass of blade it's still of a brick s--t-house variety.
It's rough-ground in order to look for welding flaws,as i may try to forge it thinner.
(forging flawed welds or any other fissures makes them go deeper).
May undertake that tomorrow.
However,for the future the "formula" must be adjusted better.
 
Too tired last night to upload any top-bottom view photos(not that you folks haven't seen enough process photos by now;the idea is to keep to the same general constr.paradigm/to get further along it,so the process is the maximally same).

But here's a couple to illustrate how inelegantly-overlarge the blade mass comes out to be:
https://imgur.com/nd5TVR3
https://imgur.com/Cfs2AlL

I do so much in-process grinding to check on the weld-seams(not to cover up the fact that i can't forge this to shape!...oh,no..not at all....:)

In the second shot you can see the lips of the weld parallel the edge.
I stuch the steel insert out past the cleft this time,following the Mercer example.(though mine goes all the way into the eye).

It causes tons of problems to do that,as per the great difference in hardness of the two alloys.
In the past those had more of a similarity in their plasticity;and i'll work on obtaining something more suitable,more similar to the "sheer steel" of the past.
An old buggy-spring would be cool to experiment with,a good example of hardenable material of the period,but i don't have any in my piles....
 
Another deviation from the process illustrated by Mercer was the steeling of poll After blading(probably not an important difference).
These photos apply rather to that last cracked hard-plating photos of that old Mckinnon.
Plate overhangs the poll by a fraction:https://imgur.com/JT43pmt
And after the butt-weld is done,the edges wrapped around the sides,creating impression of the plate being much thicker than it really is:https://imgur.com/U31cRvW
So that 1/4" +/- thickness starts looking 3/8"-ish +...
 
jake pogg said:
Another deviation from the process illustrated by Mercer was the steeling of poll After blading(probably not an important difference).
These photos apply rather to that last cracked hard-plating photos of that old Mckinnon.
Plate overhangs the poll by a fraction:https://imgur.com/JT43pmt
And after the butt-weld is done,the edges wrapped around the sides,creating impression of the plate being much thicker than it really is:https://imgur.com/U31cRvW
So that 1/4" +/- thickness starts looking 3/8"-ish +...
Click to expand...
Well done man! It really looks fun and rewarding. Thanks for sharing the journey. It's been fun following along and seeing what different folks have to contribute. Looking forward to the next installment(s)!
 
A quick evening report.
I reforged the blade thinner,final-drifted the eye(opening some welds a bit,in a hurry/too low a heat),and a few minor adjustments(tried out chamfering the poll area as i plan on grinding down the blade only,poll will stay as forged).
This is what it looked like re-forged:
https://imgur.com/3MECOhF
Bottom:
https://imgur.com/rUnpOhJ
Top(you can see a hump forward of the eye,that mass can only be cut or ground,there's no place that it can be moved to,i must still be not quite there with the shape of pre-form):
https://imgur.com/hP5qztZ

Then i had just a bit of time for final grinding.Now the blade has Less mass than i'd really like...(this is what,# 7? i'm progressing,but none too fast...).
Dark areas behind the edge are set down from level plane.No big deal,it'd be an ok axe,just a bit surprised at how poor my control of volume is.
Poll/back of eye hit with a rotary brush,that WI sure has one rough surface after all the welding...
https://imgur.com/ZqLTvQp

And top view(forgot to take one of bottom side).You can see a few seams i broke with impatient,too-cold/too rude drifting:
https://imgur.com/tE4mRUO

Square_peg said:
I have some old spring tie harrows that I could send you pieces off. It's likely 1084/1085 agricultural steel.
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Square_peg,thanks,man.Yes,we'll think about some good authentic edge stock,maybe the old farm-grade 10xx series would be just the ticket.
I really MUST quit for the season(dammit,i really don't want to,can't pry myself out of the forge...:(....But Must.
So we have plenty of time now for thinking,till late Sept-early October...
 
Thanks again, sincerely. I must say you're really starting to produce examples that are the spitting image of the period pieces I've seen. Can't wait to see what you come up with in the fall! I've some carbon steel I could send up your way as well, and if you want to borrow a Stohler to look at I'd send it with. You've no shortage of forum support!
 
The shape if this one is very refined. It's certainly been a learning process. I can see why you have trouble leaving the forge. Exciting progress.

jake pogg said:
And top view(forgot to take one of bottom side). You can see a few seams i broke with impatient,too-cold/too rude drifting:
Click to expand...

At what color heat did the seams start to separate? That's a valuable piece of knowledge.

What type of material did you use for the center up the poll under the cap?
 
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