rampant misinformation...

jdm61 said:
Larrin, I know that whenever the question of "how many knives did you make last year" comes up, I am always amazed at how many some of the stock removal guys can get out to the peoples in a year. What save you the most time? cutting or having them cut to shape or not having to mess around quite as much with the heat treat? I, for one, go through a minumum of 3 or so steps involving heating the blade and waiting anywhere from an hour to overnight before I touch the blade again. Do you stock removal guys who do your own heat treating spnd as much time waiting around as I do? lol I know that knives without guards can be finished up quicker. As I haven't done many full tang knives and only one succesfully, I would suspect that the time you spend tapering and truing up the tang would be similar to the amount of time you spend messing around with a hidden tang handle. Any comments?
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Well the stock removal maker has to wait for his furnace to start up, but that can be done while you're working on the blade to put in there. The forger spends a lot of time heating his blade back up. After the blade is forged, then the scale has to be removed, another step the stock removal doesn't have to perform. The main thing is, the forger generally has about as much grinding and polishing to do on his knife as a stock removal maker, but the stock removal maker spends a lot less time shaping and profiling his steel. That's just how I see it.
 
Probably the primary reason that i chose to forge, other than the fact that it is fun and has a cool. almost mystical vibe, is that the majority of the knifemakers who inspired me to start TRYING to make knifes forged. I had old school Gerbers and some really lame stuff too, but the first knives that really got me interested in handmade cutlery back in the late 70's were Randalls, like a lot of folks I'm sure. I really didn't buy any more knives for long time, but I started hearing about Bill Moran, Bill Bagwell, damascus steel and the ABS. Then I made the mistake of buying Knives 92. The addiction had begun to take hold. I bought a few of the newer factory knives from SOG, Backjack and Al Mar and finally bought a couple of Randalls Then I read about Sean McWilliams, who was forging stainless and ordered one of his knives. When I finally went to my first Guild show in 1993, I met guys like Joe Flournoy, Robbie Hudson, Mark Sentz, Jay Hendrickson, Charlie Ochs and Al Pendray. I bought a knife from Joe and was hooked. Now I will admit...there was one stock removal maker who I really liked and still like his stuff and the knives that other guys make in the same style. That was Ron Gaston. There are many other stock removal makers that i like, but I was always fascinated by the whole forging process, so some 12 years later, I started messing around. And after almost 2 years of fits and starts, including not picking up a hammer for 9 months in 2006, I am at it again and actually seeing some daylight. If I hadn't gone to the Guild show and been fascinated by Al Pendray's wootz and in all things forged, I would in all liklihood be trying to learn how to make Gaston style double edge fighters and boot knives and Loveless Big Bears. i may still try a couple of those eventually.:D
 
If forged and wootz or some of the totally beautiful Damascus patterns...that is the value of forged to me.
If it is forged, say ATS34, or 52100, or 154CM, or 01, or A2,or D2, on and on.
forged is an emotionally neat "fire and anvil and hammer" idea....emotionally...
I'd put any steel that one can forge against the same steel heat treated by an expert heat reater like Paul Bos....and I would bet most of what I have that forged will not, not ever be a better blade steel than the non-forged/ stock removal only steel blade.....
Forged Damascus patterns are not comparable to non-Damascus patterned
steels.
Forging does not make for a better steel....if all else is equal.....other than emotional fire and hammer and anvil thoughts...which are valid...but not better produced steel
But if you wanna talk forged Damascus patterns, some of those are just breath-taking!!!
But I understand that doesn't make a better using steel.....just a whole lot more gorgeous.....
 
bladsmth said:
All modern steel is forged - technically.

I forge for fun, then grind it to make a knife. All forgers are stock removal people,too.

Many makers start as grinders and become forgers. Only a few start as forgers and go to grinding only.
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I agree with the first two statements, 100%.

On the third statement = I actually started out forging...then went to grinding.

I think that sometimes folks get "stuck" on an idea that, like Kevin says, becomes a selling point. Starts out as a simple "Look, I'm different" tactic (which we ALL do)...that, when held to over time...becomes almost impossible to let go of it. I know it's not easy...I've had to let go of a couple "selling points" myself as I've learned....:(

My policy is this: use forging for what forging does best, and grinding for what grinding does best. I can forge an Ulu in 10-15 minutes from 1/4" stock, with full flat bevels (3 inches tall, 5 inches wide). Since I leave the "forged finish" on...it makes sense to forge it to shape. Even on a good day it would take longer than 10 minutes to grind it full-flat both sides.

Sometimes I get into a design that has more curve than conventional barstock allows (or is practical). I will forge those to shape (profile only), then do stock removal to clean it up and grind the bevels in.

However, forging bevels doesn't really make sense to me...when a grinder is readily available. Granted, yes...full-flat grinding a 2" tall blade is a bear indeed...perhaps if my forging skills were better, it might save time "getting it started"...but (and I'm thinking of my santoku kitchen knives) one thing that irritated me when starting out forging....I was told by many a maker to leave excess thickness when forging bevels - to be ground off later. If I'm going to flat grind it later anyway....why bother spending the time in the first place?

I do not believe forging adds to the quality of the steel...so, for me forging is a tool for creativity (which is, perhaps, why it is so appealing)...but loses out to stock removal in terms of productivity.
 
Daniel Koster said:
up and grind the bevels in.

However, forging bevels doesn't really make sense to me...when a grinder is readily available. .
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It would however be fun to be so good at my forge work that when Im done working on a knife with my hammer all thats left to do is run the edge across a stone a few times and it's done...
 
Sometimes the mystique is enough. Bladesmiths dig it and so do customers. Another factor to consider is that the carbon steels that most folks forge ith tend to be less finicky than the stainless steels so you can play around a bit. There was a very interesting article in one of the mags recently about building cutting comp knives. They talked about how the smiths kept thinnning, tesing and tempering until they go the thinnest possible edge that wound't roll over. I know that you could do that with SR knives too, but not if you are sending the blade out for HT. Smiths just happen ot have allof the reuqired gear to do that in their shop. Also, i am not sure how many times you can redo some part of the HT or fiddle around with some of the really high tech stainless steels. Any input?
P.S. Just a thought. cost savings in materials. If you think about some of the better carbon steels that are used for forging and some of the better stainless steels that the SR guys use, there can be a huge price difference. I bought W2 for $3 a pound. That would be about a foot of 1 1/2 x 1/4 flat bar. By forging, I can get 2 decnt sized hidden tang knives out of that bar. A pound of S30V cost somehwere in the range or $22 from Admiral. You can grind one decent size hidden tang knife from that. So I end up with steel cost of around $1.50 in my knife. The stock removal maker using S30V has lets say $18 in steel cost. Aside from the corrosion resistance, is that steel worth 12 times as much as the W2 performance wise, if both have correct edge geometry and were heat treated properly? From what I see in the results from the cutting comps, it seems that evryone is pretty evenly matched regardless of what good steel they use to make the knives. Flame away, brothers and sisters......lol
 
jdm61 said:
So I end up with steel cost of around $1.50 in my knife. The stock removal maker using S30V has lets say $18 in steel cost.
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Shhhhhh man! You're going to knock the bottom out of the market if buyers find out carbon steel is cheaper! :D

Really though, that's a serious consideration for a new guy like me. There's no way in heck I can afford to spend 2-3 times as much for steel, and a HT furnace (that's the big bite I think), and a cryo tank thing just to get started... plus I don't feel as bad about messing up $2 worth of steel :o
 
forging verses Stock grinding
for fun or cost or ease ?
it all is truly in the eyes of the beholder.. and what you all want and can get out of what you are doing and looking for in your time and place in knife making.

AG Russell, just a short time ago, here on BFC said,
( I can't remember if I asked him or it was someone else, but it was about making money in knives)
he said when he decided to make money in knives he stopped Forging.. you can take that for what's it's worth..

I'm not saying you can't make money in forging and I'm sure he didn't mean that either. but it's liken to the NBA
not everyone is a Fisk or a Jordan ,and most I dare say will never be (not picking on them but using them as an example of their point in there life ).. so, the rest of the most of us? we find our niche and then do what we have to do, that fits us.. I like to keep an open mind in all aspects , that for myself, should make me a well rounded knife maker..at the least

as for the topic,
miss information, information is only as good as the new info we receive after the old , that is called progressive learning :) ... that is why we have to be careful about what we say, we just might learn something new later that blows our past words up in our faces.. :)
 
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