rampant misinformation...

J

Jared Stenoien

Joined
Dec 4, 2005
Messages
1,025
I've been fairly sheltered here at bladeforums thanks in large part to the efforts of kevin cashen and mete when it comes to blatant misinformation and hype about making knives, however while searching the net today I happened to stumple on this site which I'd have to laugh about if it wasn't so sad

http://www.tellercanyon.com/knives-and-steel.html


some quotes:

"One might, at this point, ask the question: Why aren't these steels used in making mass-produced knives whether by forging or stock-reduction? The reason 5160 and 52100 aren't (or at least shouldn't be) is that these steels only become superior knife steels when hammer-forged to shape. You can't just jam the stuff in a drop-forge or for that matter simply grind a blade from them and produce a really good quality knife. The steels only exhibit their truly outstanding qualities when forged to shape through multiple heat and forging cycles followed by multiple normalization cycles prior to differential heat treatment with three hardening and tempering cycles along with some sub-zero chilling at appropriate points in the process. The bottom line is that all of this is too labor-intensive for mass production to be practical."

and

"There is a very good reason to forge steel to shape rather than simply machining or grinding it. It's the reason that the best rifle receivers and knives and many other things are made this way. A forged steel product can be lighter in weight than one produced by just machining and grinding from a cast or rolled steel. This is because forging alters the structure of the steel."

:jerkit:
 
here's another little nugget o' wisdom for you

"For the steels we have chosen to use, forging the blade always produces a better result than stock reduction. The heat treatment process we use always produces a better result for these steels than can be obtained from commercial heat treatment establishements."


(emphasis added)
 
and look at who they credit with teaching them or being inpisrations...

http://www.tellercanyon.com/credits.html

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Tim and Marian Lively from whom we gained an appreciation for and insight into the use of traditional methods
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Ed Caffrey from whom we learned much about the proper heat treatment of 5160 and 52100 and who probably knows more about steel, thoughtful design and "The Total Package" than most ever will. Ed hosts a discussion forum in Ed Caffrey's Workshop at the Custom Knife Directory Forums.
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Don Fogg does beautiful work and has provided a wealth of very useful information on his website. Don hosts discussions in the Bladesmith's Forum.
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Daniel O'Connor who thought up just about the niftiest charcoal-making retort design ever.
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Many of the folks we've met online in the forums mentioned above.
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Caffery and Fogg I know of from on here, but I doubt their views of forging and steel being lighter after forge match these ppls.
 
but like they said its an opinion and opinions are based on experience.

"Opinions are, after all, formed through experience and your experience is almost certainly different from ours."
 
theres also facts. forge a picee of steel and cut out a 1" cube. weigh that, and tell us if it's different than a 1" cube cut from cast or rolled steel?
 
but as pointed out by many seasoned and highly experienced knife makers, when you heat treat a piece of steel you are refining the grain.
 
but you're not somehow making it lighter, if anything I'd think it'd be heavier, although I do not believe this to be the case at all
 
they just had a discussion about forging a blade a couple of weeks ago. it should clear up anything you are unsure about. that should end the arguement. i myself am not biased to forging or stock removal. i say if it works for you and you like it then do it.
 
refining the grain is just shuffling the existing number of atoms around into smaller clumps.

Theres still the same number of iron atoms hanging around, and if the piece loses a few points of carbon in the process, carbon is lighter than iron.

Theres no way on earth that it can get lighter without soehow involving antigravity.
 
I'm not knocking forging, I'm simply saying that it's not any better than stock removal quality wise, you can get the same grain refinement you do with forging by heat treating cycles with a stock removal knife. They're saying that unless you do their voodoo ritual, you can't make a good blade basically.
 
thats not how it came out in your posts. you were saying that the others were wrong about forging a blade would make it better. re-read what you posted in the quotes.
 
my thought on the refining grain and making it heavier comes from my lack of knowledge of the shape and nature of the grains, I was thinking about the difference in mass of a crate full of oranges vs. the same size crate filled with kumquats
 
I'm talking about statements like "The reason 5160 and 52100 aren't (or at least shouldn't be) is that these steels only become superior knife steels when hammer-forged to shape"
 
but you were still saying that forging was better and that what the others were saying was wrong. you were basically insulting them and saying that they dont know anything when it comes to forging and making knives.
 
...nowhere did I say that, somehow you're reading into things that aren't there. I said I'm not knocking forging, but as far as making a quality knife goes, forging is no better than stock removal, now as far as utilizing resources and being able to do more, forging wins hands down
 
mrstenoien said:
I've been fairly sheltered here at bladeforums thanks in large part to the efforts of kevin cashen and mete when it comes to blatant misinformation and hype about making knives,
Click to expand...

this is the statement im talking about. you insulted these gentlemen saying that they dont know anything about making knives and such.
 
I'm saying that they are making misinforming statements in order to sell their blades better, which I personally have a beef with.



I'd also like to add that I have no personal vendetta against these people, they are not the only ones guilty of this by a long shot, they just happened to catch my eye because their site appeared second on my search
 
They may personally BELIEVE that quenching three times at 24 hour intervals, and tempering three times, with two sets of subzero freezes between tempers make better knives. But I'm sure there are plenty of trained, qualified, practicing mettalurgists who would disagree from the perspective of knowing for a fact what is happening in the steel.

They are pushing a lot of hype and misrepresentains there. I'm certain no manufactorer of 5160 or 52100 will say in their material data sheets that forging to shape is the only way to get max performace out of their steel.
 
well if you have a beef with them then take it up in emails or private messages but not here on the forums where everyone can read it. also watch how you word a statement. in your statement you are saying that the information that they provide on these forums is wrong and also that they dont know what they are talking about when it comes to making knives. in all reality they probably know a heck of a lot more about making knives then you do which is why they have been providing new makers like you and i with helpful information about making knives and sharing their wisdom and knowledge with us that they have obtained thru tons of experience and have gathered throughout their knife making career.
 
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