rampant misinformation...

Mete: Right-I am referring specifically to parts with lugs and corners. Stuff like drag beam fittings and cuffs used in rotor heads. Complicated shapes!
Absolutely no relevance to knife blades, as I already indicated.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
After a bout with insomnia last night I When I hear that a maker got ten times the performance out of their last blade when compared to their previous ones, I don’t think about giving him the “best maker” award, I think he is a great candidate for “most improved”, if you know what I mean ;). (i.e. a 10 fold improvement from a material that the rest of the world figured out long ago, tells me a whole lot more about those previous attempts than the latest one;))
Click to expand...


:eek: Kevin you're bad with no sleep :D :D :D
 
Look, guys..........i just want to make a knife that takes a sharp edge, holds it, doesn't break and maybe, just maybe, looks good too...........is that too much to ask? Why do you insist on making my skull collpase once a week with all of this scientific stuff? lol:D :p But seriously. If someone has a technique that in the end, creates a good performing knife, I don't think it matters if the maker got the science wrong. Some may have a problem with it beng "being preached as Gospel" but if I try technique and it works well, I am not going to blow it off because the cites were wrong....lol. I listen to everyone, filter the materiel and try the techniques as best I can. I have picked up some good stuff on here. And while i am striving to make my knives better, I don't think that I will ever get that "last 1%" because i will never have the gear to check it. I don't EVER see myself going to the lengths that Kevin C. does to test and examine. There will be no stereo microscopes and impact testing devices in my garage, so I wing it. lol I read what folks like Kevin......and others he may disagree with.....say and then I give it a try. Since Kevin is posting here, I will "call him out"....just kidding. i have tried a number of things that he suggested. I form the choil, the tang and quench my W2 blades like his tutorials and his posts on here have suggested among other things..........guess what? It works!!!!!:D And I have also tried some stuff that I have been told by Don Hanson, Jerry Fisk, Charlie Ochs, Phil Patton, John Fitch, Bill Moran, Mark Sentz, Joe Keeslar, Chris Marks and goodly number of smiths on here and at hammer-ins, including a "modified" edge quench (i quench about 2/3-3/4 of hunter blades so that the majority of the blade is hardened) with my 1075 blades...........guess what? That stuff seems to work too. When I find something that doesn't work for me, I don't do it anymore. Many times, that may be because i screwed up as opposed to the technique not being effective, but if I can't pull it off, the technique is of no use to me as a hack smith....lol. I am having fun and the only knifemaking stress I experience is what I cause myself.......usually when I screw up on the grinder. I'm just doing this to have fun............but hey..........thats just me:thumbup:
BTW.......don't ya think that "rampant misinformation" is a bit harsh? To me, that implies lying as opposed to having an opinion that others don't agree with or maybe just being wrong about something.
 
I did have second thoughts about the heading of this thread after I posted it, but you can't change the titles yourself. When I originally posted it I was more referring to the fact that even with as long as people like mete and kevin have been working to discredit these fallacies they still seem to pop up everywhere, it was not specifically directed towards these people, they just happened to get caught in the crossfire.
 
Dan Gray said:
the one thing that I like most about stock removal is, in a normal blade I can grind one out a lot faster than Forging one,
Click to expand...

Is that the general opinion of the smiths on this forum? I know I've read bladesmiths elsewhere claim that they save time by forging...
 
You may save time at the grinder and money on belts, but for me, the process of getting the knife to shape before heat treat is nothing compared to the time spent sanding these ugly mothers after the fact:D
 
dlpierson said:
Is that the general opinion of the smiths on this forum? I know I've read bladesmiths elsewhere claim that they save time by forging...
Click to expand...

I'd wager and buck to two on a race to see what happens :D
I'm talking start to finish heat times and all :)
say on a full tang hunter maybe?? :D

the heat times are the down fall..
 
The flow is mainly carbides which aren't dissolved during forging (they form strings together in the rolling direction) and impurities. Carbides stringing together can manipulate the shape of the grains somewhat.
 
I'm curious and find this quite amusing, has anyone noticed that the web site this thread was first started over, has not been modified or updated in over 3 yrs., so with all the up to date information available, why would you not look for more recently posted info. Again I'm just curious.


I'd wager and buck to two on a race to see what happens
Dan I'll tell you what, I'll send you a piece of 1 1/4" round 52100. you grind a knife out of it and I'll pound one out and we'll see who gets done first. :D

Happy grinding,

Bill
 
B . Buxton said:
I'd wager and buck to two on a race to see what happens
Dan I'll tell you what, I'll send you a piece of 1 1/4" round 52100. you grind a knife out of it and I'll pound one out and we'll see who gets done first. :D

Happy grinding,

Bill
Click to expand...
Then I'll send you a piece of 1/8" 52100, you can pound out a knife and I'll grind one, and we'll see who gets done first. :p You can start out with large material if you want, but if a forger and a stock removal guy start out with their preferred material a stock remover will blow away a forger as far as speed.
 
Dan Gray said:
not always
I'd like to see you change your mind about that view.
and I know that you put "usually" in there for a reason" :D

If the steel manufacturer can't annealing and normalizing and do it right, should they be in the business.
I stock remove and have a oven so I can do this if I have too also,

With that said I do Forge some also, but my joints won't let me forge a lot though.
anyway there are many good things to both sides,
IF there is a side to be on.
I don't think it's a side issue or it shouldn't be at least, but it's a choice that can be swayed at any point in time hopefully to make for a well rounded maker... why did we start where we did?
some times it's a money thing just getting into it. or just by the interest from who you picked it up from in the first place. be it grinding or Forging..

the one thing that I like most about stock removal is, in a normal blade I can grind one out a lot faster than Forging one,
forging would be moving that steel just a pinch maybe because it's not there in stock
as I say each has it's advantages.. IMO

someone mentioned some time ago that you could save money by using less steel by forging. this is true , maybe,,,, but what is your time worth and are you really saving money??

if we think about it real hard , there are those that truly think that what they do is the best way ONLY because that is what they do and only know and haven't tried any other ways.. that man has a closed mind..
just some things for thought..:)
Click to expand...

You're right, I did use "usually" for a reason. When I began making knives, I was a stock removal only maker. I now use both methods. I have also notice a big difference when I normalize and anneal any steel I'm going to be using, instead of relying on it being in a good condition for grinding, and subsequent hardening and tempering.

Ever since I began to normalize and anneal my stock removal material prior to working on it, I've found that it drills, cuts and machines more easily. I've also found that it is less likely to warp when hardened and tempered. It works for me, so I use that extra step to make my life easier in the long run.

Scott (Ickie) Ickes
 
Larrin said:
Then I'll send you a piece of 1/8" 52100, you can pound out a knife and I'll grind one, and we'll see who gets done first. :p You can start out with large material if you want, but if a forger and a stock removal guy start out with their preferred material a stock remover will blow away a forger as far as speed.
Click to expand...

Larrin, I know that whenever the question of "how many knives did you make last year" comes up, I am always amazed at how many some of the stock removal guys can get out to the peoples in a year. What save you the most time? cutting or having them cut to shape or not having to mess around quite as much with the heat treat? I, for one, go through a minumum of 3 or so steps involving heating the blade and waiting anywhere from an hour to overnight before I touch the blade again. Do you stock removal guys who do your own heat treating spnd as much time waiting around as I do? lol I know that knives without guards can be finished up quicker. As I haven't done many full tang knives and only one succesfully, I would suspect that the time you spend tapering and truing up the tang would be similar to the amount of time you spend messing around with a hidden tang handle. Any comments?
 
I'd like to see a video of the suggested forge vs. grinder race. :thumbup: There are an awful lot of factors involved so I think it would be interesting.
 
rj martin said:
www.efunda.com/processes/metal_processing/Forging.cfm

did a quick search and found the above link, for those of you who are interested.
Click to expand...


Hey RJ!

I'm not sure I follow the link's explanation... it kind of insinuates that the benefits of grain flow happen regardless of whether the beginning stock is forged through standard milling processes or not... but then, later in the explanation, it mentions some things that I would have assumed would only be issues with castings.

"Forgings are consistent from piece to piece, without any of the porosity, voids, inclusions and other defects. Thus, finishing operations such as machining do not expose voids, because there aren't any."

I'm not arguing this point, I'm merely seeking enlightenment. In fact I'm really grateful for your presence on this forum. I love your knife designs, and your article in Blade's Guide to Making Knives was an immense help... and it'd be great to have you around here more!
 
hahaha :D Bill
that's not the deal :D
being stock removal I'll buy my stock to use :D :D

I agree with relieving the blade after grinding it also not that I do , because I can straighten it right after the quench if I should need to..

now we can talk about SS
forging versus Stock grinding .. OK :D a bigger picture...:)
 
Now that this thread is a little cooler, I'll put in my 2 cents.
I'm sure many of you know that I make alot of damascus. I also make knives out of it. Most of the stuff I make is 1" wide, and most of the knives I make will fit into this size. However, ocasionally I feel like a bit of forging, or I need to drop the tang a bit. So, I grab the hammer and start banging away. I do it mostly for fun.
I have spent the last 20 years making mistakes in all aspects of knife and damascus making and trying to find solutions for them. I'm sure there are things for me to learn and more mistakes ahead. I am happy to have had some advice from those more advanced in the craft (Kevin Cashen and Tim Zowada are the main culprits)

Thanks,
Del
 
smiletoothy.gif
Bill you almost found that loop hole haha


I look at all this suff as
the right tool for the right job..
forging is as much of a tool as a milling mahine is.. you still have to know how to run it right or something will go wrong
:)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top