Random Thought Thread

[benchrest308]

Let me return your question, benchrest308

.... involved theft or which did not represent a danger to life (or grave bodily harm), I would not involve myself. The equation changes when it becomes life threatening. And even then, great caution must be exercised.

Thank you for the insight. I could not agree more.

Awareness is paramount, as you said.

 

[RaiderJameson]

Blues in your professional opinion, does open carry make the carrier a greater target in the event of a robbery or does it deter a robbery altogether?

I recently had this discussion. I am of the opinion that this follows "survivor bias" where we would have the numbers of all robberies that involved an open carry individual, but we would not have any numbers on how many were prevented since that is unreportable, if that makes sense?

Although it is questionable to whether a criminal would stop activity if a carrier was noticed, areas where concealed and open carry are allowed and people open carry, theft is a much lower rate. The risk for a criminal is much higher if there are other firearms around with people who know how to use them. for instance, if you attempt to rob a gas station in a local town and there is a carrier you have greater chance of getting fatal lead poisoning than in a large mall where nobody knows eachother. It definitely has to do with the area but where guns are allowed, there is less crime. Proven fact

 

[Blues]

The problem isn't the amount of guns or who's carrying what where...the problem is the deterioration of society and respect for one's fellow man here in America, in my opinion.

And right along with it, the disregard for the rule of law and the sanctity of the judicial system...let alone those responsible for defending them.

The reasons are manifold as regards why we are going down this path...it's been obvious to me for a few decades now as I observed the erosion from within the agencies I worked for.

Society became very permissive and "politically correct"...where many things which were once taboo became allowable...even extolled. While others became the taboos they replaced.

...and now, unfortunately, many of those who pushed the envelope to extend what was permissible...only want that privilege for themselves and their own fellow travelers. Their "tribe", as it were.

I don't know how to put the genie back in the bottle. Sure, we can say this and that about it...but actually bringing it to fruition? I am not sanguine on the odds.

 

[Blues]

Although it is questionable to whether a criminal would stop activity if a carrier was noticed, areas where concealed and open carry are allowed and people open carry, theft is a much lower rate. The risk for a criminal is much higher if there are other firearms around with people who know how to use them. for instance, if you attempt to rob a gas station in a local town and there is a carrier you have greater chance of getting fatal lead poisoning than in a large mall where nobody knows eachother. It definitely has to do with the area but where guns are allowed, there is less crime. Proven fact

I have worked in law enforcement most of my adult life and have lived in environments from sprawling metropolises to Mayberry. I am nearly 53 years your senior.

I am not going to spend a lot of time telling you that your conclusions are not based upon evidence...but rather upon anecdotal information. Feel free to believe what you want...but thinking something, or wishing something, does not make it so.

An armed society is a polite society? Maybe. Sometimes. Certainly, not all the time. You roll the dice and you get what comes up.

Proven fact? That's a stretch. Anyway, this is not something I'm going to beat to death. You're entitled to believe what you wish.

 

[Lorien]

There are very few reliable sources for the "numbers"...as several reports have been proven unreliable based upon faulty statistics and methodologies over the years. I find the lack of factual and properly vetted information disappointing, but it is what it is.

Feelings and opinions without supporting data and evidence are a lot less convincing, imho. Of course, everyone is entitled to an opinion on the matter, regardless.

I'm not trying to get into any 'link wars' here, lol, but here's a CDC link to check out. Just cuz CDC research from the nineties was brought up
Also, correlation is not causation, but Alabama is one of the least restrictive states and also has the highest rate of gun deaths

A lot of people probably like to think that they'd be a hero in a threatening situation, but from what I've observed with humans, is that most of us are more interested in preserving our own lives at the expense of maybe sacrificing ourselves to save someone else. It makes sense- in the face of unspeakably evil acts, like the knife attacks which started this conversation, I think most people would not know how to react, whether or not they have a weapon of some kind. And even then, in those moments where the fight or flight response kicks in, the majority of humans would be overcome by their instinct for self preservation, and not equipped to handle their weapon effectively

So, I'm not saying that you shouldn't have your gun if the law allows for it. What I'm saying is that if laws are designed to allow people unfettered access to firearms then you should expect that more people will end up killed- either by each other or by suicide- and maimed by them, because that it what guns are designed for. It's not a political statement, it just stands to reason

In the case of the stabbings that we're talking about, who knows whether these guys tried to get guns. Maybe they couldn't because of laws, or because of poverty or because of accessibility. Maybe the whole point was to use knives instead. All I'm saying is that it's a terrible situation which could have been amplified by the weaponry used, so I'm glad they didn't have access for whatever the reasons were

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

Feelings and opinions without supporting data and evidence are a lot less convincing, imho. Of course, everyone is entitled to an opinion on the matter, regardless.

There is an old saying. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but no one is entitled to their own facts. Facts are facts. The problem is, is getting damn near impossible for the average citizen to discern the actual truth from the actual make-believe. There are so many lies pushed from both sides and most of the media is not always trustworthy.

The Kyle Rittenhouse thing was a real eye-opener for me. The media coverage of it was inaccurate, I mean willfully inaccurate. Leaving you either confused, ignorant, or in the position of trying to figure out for yourself what really happened and what was right and what was wrong. I'd say the majority of the citizenry have a strong opinion one way or another about what happened there, and are wrong about it.

 

[Blues]

There is an old saying. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but no one is entitled to their own facts. Facts are facts. The problem is, is getting damn near impossible for the average citizen to discern the actual truth from the actual make-believe. There are so many lies pushed from both sides and most of the media is not always trustworthy.

The Kyle Rittenhouse thing was a real eye-opener for me. It was been annas the extent to which objective truth was not available. Leaving you either confused, ignorant, or in the position of trying to figure out for yourself what really happened and what was right and what was wrong. I'd say the majority of the citizenry have a strong opinion one way or another about what happened there, and are wrong about it.

You're not wrong. (And it is not encouraging...for all the reasons stated and more.)

You should try taking witness statements. Where folks actually believe they are telling the truth...(putting aside those that are intended to deceive).

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

And then you have one side protesting, frequently with incorrect facts fed to them by Russian trolls. And then the other side reacting to that and having protests of their own with some pretty severe consequences sometimes, also misinformed and also frequently fed misinformation from Russian trolls. Facebook has been really bad for this country. I will say, from where I'm sitting, it tends to be the liberal left that has a lot of their facts right but their ideas wrong. And the conservative right that tend to be a little bit more gullible believing disinformation. That's just the way it looks from where I'm sitting. But I think we can all agree that we are all being manipulated by outside forces. It's like taking a red ant and a black ant and putting them in a jar. They might be fine until someone comes along and shakes it. I'm looking forward to the fall of Russia. A lot of the misinformation comes from there and they're not going to be able to harm us and create civil discord from their troll farms once they're back subsistence farming.

 

[Fonedork]

People are being told constantly that the world is ending, whether due to climate change or the irretrievable breakdown of society or the family unit or because of nuclear holocaust or any number of talking points calculated to keep people in a state of constant, passive despair. And people are told and are able to conclude that they have no ability to stop that from happening. Religion is being replaced by money and luxury goods, gods replaced by capeshit and manufactured celebrities. Narcissism is not only encouraged but has become a means of earning a living. People are being pushed more and more into isolation from their communities and even families. Divisive, non-political "political" issues are actually destroying some people's family relationships, people who cut ties with their mother or father over a disagreement over a concept or hypothetical. I can't help but surmise that there is an agenda here and an effort being made to manipulate people into voluntarily relinquishing their rights to the state.

 

[Lorien]

I'm not trying to get into any 'link wars' here, lol, but here's a CDC link to check out. Just cuz CDC research from the nineties was brought up
Also, correlation is not causation, but Alabama is one of the least restrictive states and also has the highest rate of gun deaths

A lot of people probably like to think that they'd be a hero in a threatening situation, but from what I've observed with humans, is that most of us are more interested in preserving our own lives at the expense of maybe sacrificing ourselves to save someone else. It makes sense- in the face of unspeakably evil acts, like the knife attacks which started this conversation, I think most people would not know how to react, whether or not they have a weapon of some kind. And even then, in those moments where the fight or flight response kicks in, the majority of humans would be overcome by their instinct for self preservation, and not equipped to handle their weapon effectively

So, I'm not saying that you shouldn't have your gun if the law allows for it. What I'm saying is that if laws are designed to allow people unfettered access to firearms then you should expect that more people will end up killed- either by each other or by suicide- and maimed by them, because that it what guns are designed for. It's not a political statement, it just stands to reason

In the case of the stabbings that we're talking about, who knows whether these guys tried to get guns. Maybe they couldn't because of laws, or because of poverty or because of accessibility. Maybe the whole point was to use knives instead. All I'm saying is that it's a terrible situation which could have been amplified by the weaponry used, so I'm glad they didn't have access for whatever the reasons were

new news wrt the last paragraph above;

Parole Board of Canada documents show that over two decades he amassed 59 convictions for crimes including assault, assault with a weapon, assaulting a police officer, uttering threats and robbery.

He was given a lifetime prohibited weapons ban because of his violent behaviour.

 

[Blues]

People are being told constantly that the world is ending, whether due to climate change or the irretrievable breakdown of society or the family unit or because of nuclear holocaust or any number of talking points calculated to keep people in a state of constant, passive despair. And people are told and are able to conclude that they have no ability to stop that from happening. Religion is being replaced by money and luxury goods, gods replaced by capeshit and manufactured celebrities. Narcissism is not only encouraged but has become a means of earning a living. People are being pushed more and more into isolation from their communities and even families. Divisive, non-political "political" issues are actually destroying some people's family relationships, people who cut ties with their mother or father over a disagreement over a concept or hypothetical. I can't help but surmise that there is an agenda here and an effort being made to manipulate people into voluntarily relinquishing their rights to the state.

Don't answer the door.
Don't. Do. It.

It's not the landshark.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

I think most conservatives do not follow QAnon. Any reasonable person would be embarrassing and ashamed to be associated with that lot of conspiracy theorists. But the misinformation that comes from QAnon and places like that (infoWars etc) tend to be right leaning. Which has encumbered those of us who tend to lean that way with a bunch of well intentioned but tragically misinformed compatriots.

 

[Blues]

I think most conservatives do not follow QAnon. Any reasonable person would be embarrassing and ashamed to be associated with that lot of conspiracy theorists. But the misinformation that comes from QAnon and places like that (infoWars etc) tend to be right leaning. Which has encumbered those of us who tend to lean that way with a bunch of well intentioned but tragically misinformed compatriots.

No group has a monopoly on ignorance.

(Though I make an exception for actual hate groups...the kind I once looked into...and which helped turn my hair gray.)

 

[Fonedork]

Don't answer the door.
Don't. Do. It.

It's not the landshark.

Had to look that up...

 

[Blues]

Had to look that up...

 

[bluemax_1]

It's funny how you dont hear relatively anything about good guys with guns stopping bad guys with guns.

They'll blow the roof off of the bad guys with guns not being stopped but by police 45+ minutes later. The mall this summer? blip on the radar.

I'm certainly unlucky that all of my firearms and ammo were lost in a boating accident.

There's an agenda being pushed, and a narrative at play.

The mainstream news simply does not push incidents where armed civilians stop bad guys.

The other part of the equation is statistics. Many folks who carry, and deter a crime without ever firing a shot, won't report the incident, simply to avoid any hassle with authorities. Even if it IS reported, there is no specific filing or category to file it as, "Good guy/civilian with gun, stopped bad guy".

As such, there's no easy way to pull up any solid LE/FBI statistics on how many "Good civilian with gun, stopped bad guy" incidents occur/have occurred, which the mainstream news then spins as, "It's rare for a civilian with a firearm to ever stop a bad guy (hence, there's no real reason to allow them to carry them)".

 

[tinfoil hat timmy]

There's an agenda being pushed, and a narrative at play.

The mainstream news simply does not push incidents where armed civilians stop bad guys.

The other part of the equation is statistics. Many folks who carry, and deter a crime without ever firing a shot, won't report the incident, simply to avoid any hassle with authorities. Even if it IS reported, there is no specific filing or category to file it as, "Good guy/civilian with gun, stopped bad guy".

As such, there's no easy way to pull up any solid LE/FBI statistics on how many "Good civilian with gun, stopped bad guy" incidents occur/have occurred, which the mainstream news then spins as, "It's rare for a civilian with a firearm to ever stop a bad guy (hence, there's no real reason to allow them to carry them)".

funny thing. The main stream media being not necessarily dishonest but at the least EXTREMELY biased.

go figure

 

[WValtakis]

There's an agenda being pushed for sure...it's the destruction of the middle class by the 1%. And they keep everyone bickering over red vs. blue or black vs. white to keep them from looking UP at the real problem. Our entire system of government is bought and paid for by corporations

 

[Fonedork]

new news wrt the last paragraph above;

Parole Board of Canada documents show that over two decades he amassed 59 convictions for crimes including assault, assault with a weapon, assaulting a police officer, uttering threats and robbery.

He was given a lifetime prohibited weapons ban because of his violent behaviour.

Sounds like the criminal justice/mental health system failed in this case. What a POS

 

[Blues]

There's an agenda being pushed for sure...it's the destruction of the middle class by the 1%. And they keep everyone bickering over red vs. blue or black vs. white to keep them from looking UP at the real problem. Our entire system of government is bought and paid for by corporations

I'm telling "the big guy"!