Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

[DeadboxHero]

Right on brother,

What's your opinion on diamonds?

 

[martinsanders]

Are there certain steels that do cut better with polished edges like skandivik or low carbide volume razor or AEL-B steel? Just wondering if there is a place for polished edges.


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[Ankerson]

Are there certain steels that do cut better with polished edges like skandivik or low carbide volume razor or AEL-B steel? Just wondering if there is a place for polished edges.


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Nope.

At least not in my testing anyway.

 

[me2]

Are there certain steels that do cut better with polished edges like skandivik or low carbide volume razor or AEL-B steel? Just wondering if there is a place for polished edges.


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Polished edges don't typically fare too well in rope slicing. Push cuts such as planing, carving, some types of chopping, or maybe pushing through rope on a cutting board are where polished edges fare better. That said, it's more common for people to use a slicing cut in knife use.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Are there certain steels that do cut better with polished edges like skandivik or low carbide volume razor or AEL-B steel? Just wondering if there is a place for polished edges.

Nope.

At least not in my testing anyway.

Ankerson's not shaving his face or performing delicate surgical tasks, nor is he running a saw blade or chisel or chipper or axe, all places where a polished edge might be the best choice to produce the cleanest cut and resist the stresses most likely to be encountered in the task (wear of a different sort).

That said, high-carbide drill bits given a high polish last a lot longer than low-carbon cheapies (probably due to final Rc hardness after HT), a LOT of saw-blades use carbide bits sintered into place for improved longevity, and HSS chisels are popular as well for the high hardness they can be produced at. The only one I've seen pushing low-carbon steels into higher hardness ranges (>60 Rc) for use is Bluntcut.

So yes, polished edges have their place, but even then high-carbide may be the better choice, depending on use.

This notion of low-carbide steel performing better with a polished edge than high-carbide steel, is this an assumption resulting from difficulty achieving edges of similar quality in the first place? Low carbide steels generally polish more easily, right? Take less work? So people assume that the high-carbide edge has trouble getting there due to some inherent problem in the steel rather than it being a problem with their technique? (like sharpening a popsicle stick on a piece of sidewalk and then blaming the knife when the same treatment doesn't give it a similar finish?)

I've found this thread on ceramic knife performance and sharpening to be worthwhile: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-16WB-ceramic-knife?highlight=forever+ceramic

Of particular interest was a post by eKretz showing the result of trying to finish a high-carbide steel with inappropriate sharpening medium (too soft or dull to cut the carbides):

A low-carbide steel would likely have polished fine with the same equipment.

 

[Ankerson]

Ankerson's not shaving his face or performing delicate surgical tasks, nor is he running a saw blade or chisel or chipper or axe, all places where a polished edge might be the best choice to produce the cleanest cut and resist the stresses most likely to be encountered in the task (wear of a different sort).

That said, high-carbide drill bits given a high polish last a lot longer than low-carbon cheapies (probably due to final Rc hardness after HT), a LOT of saw-blades use carbide bits sintered into place for improved longevity, and HSS chisels are popular as well for the high hardness they can be produced at. The only one I've seen pushing low-carbon steels into higher hardness ranges (>60 Rc) for use is Bluntcut.

So yes, polished edges have their place, but even then high-carbide may be the better choice, depending on use.

This notion of low-carbide steel performing better with a polished edge than high-carbide steel, is this an assumption resulting from difficulty achieving edges of similar quality in the first place? Low carbide steels generally polish more easily, right? Take less work? So people assume that the high-carbide edge has trouble getting there due to some inherent problem in the steel rather than it being a problem with their technique? (like sharpening a popsicle stick on a piece of sidewalk and then blaming the knife when the same treatment doesn't give it a similar finish?)

I've found this thread on ceramic knife performance and sharpening to be worthwhile: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-16WB-ceramic-knife?highlight=forever+ceramic

Of particular interest was a post by eKretz showing the result of trying to finish a high-carbide steel with inappropriate sharpening medium (too soft or dull to cut the carbides):

A low-carbide steel would likely have polished fine with the same equipment.

Sharpening equipment and or talent can and will have a lot to do with how much success one will have.

However there really isn't a need to get all fancy and crazy expensive when choosing stones.

Good quality stones are important however, the ones I use are very high quality industrial Silicon Carbide and they are VERY HARD so they really don't wear much at all.

It's generally best to stay away from anything that has economy or the like in the name or descriptions for best results and long life as the good stones aren't that much more cost wise.

 

[Zagorov]

It is interesting to see how 2 knives - one in S110V and the other in S125V (all other things being equal) - will fare against each other... Any thoughts?

I think Jim had two Phil Wilson skinner knives tested in S110V and S125V - can you give us some details?

 

[Ankerson]

It is interesting to see how 2 knives - one in S110V and the other in S125V (all other things being equal) - will fare against each other... Any thoughts?

I think Jim had two Phil Wilson skinner knives tested in S110V and S125V - can you give us some details?

Dunno, never tested one of Phil's blades in S110V at .006" behind the edge or less and at max hardness.

The ones I tested (Actually cut with) have been in the .010" range.

So I can't really say other than it would burn through a lot of rope like S125V and 10V did (read expensive), how much exactly etc..? I don't know.

 

[martinsanders]

A s125v v/s s110v would be a test I would really be interested in. I have a PM 2 being annealed and re-hardened to 64 Hrc. As long as it doesn't warp I'd like to put it up against a s125v blade at 64 as well. I saw a Custom PM 2 with s125v at 63 Hrc come up for sale on BF production knives the other day. Maybe someone would like to test it against my 110 PM 2. I am in the process of having a s125v knife made but it will be a few months before I receive it. I just can't rap my head around the fact that s110v doesn't cut better than K390 or other A11's since 110 has all that Niobium (the hardest carbide former) in it. The only thing that I seem to understand is that niobium carbides are do much smaller than vanadium carbides and it's the vanadium that sticks out like saw teeth and does the most cutting. S125v has done the best in Jim's tests so far and I hope I fall in love with it when it comes in but I have this fascination/infatuation with s110v that I can't explain. I almost went with it over the S125v knife I'm having made because my head says 125 is better but my heart seems to want 110. I really don't understand that for sure!!!


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[Zagorov]

From what I read they should be practically equal in edge retention, with S110V being a little tougher. I think Phil Wilson even mentioned in a post that S110V could be even more wear resistant than S125V...

 

[Ankerson]

A s125v v/s s110v would be a test I would really be interested in. I have a PM 2 being annealed and re-hardened to 64 Hrc. As long as it doesn't warp I'd like to put it up against a s125v blade at 64 as well. I saw a Custom PM 2 with s125v at 63 Hrc come up for sale on BF production knives the other day. Maybe someone would like to test it against my 110 PM 2. I am in the process of having a s125v knife made but it will be a few months before I receive it. I just can't rap my head around the fact that s110v doesn't cut better than K390 or other A11's since 110 has all that Niobium (the hardest carbide former) in it. The only thing that I seem to understand is that niobium carbides are do much smaller than vanadium carbides and it's the vanadium that sticks out like saw teeth and does the most cutting. S125v has done the best in Jim's tests so far and I hope I fall in love with it when it comes in but I have this fascination/infatuation with s110v that I can't explain. I almost went with it over the S125v knife I'm having made because my head says 125 is better but my heart seems to want 110. I really don't understand that for sure!!!


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Look at the specs on that S125V blade and the 10V blade at the top of the list.

 

[martinsanders]

But doesn't those 2 Hrc points account for them being so close?


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[Ankerson]

But doesn't those 2 Hrc points account for them being so close?


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Among other things.

With S125V the HT has to be dead spot on, it's not just hardness, like any of those steels to get the max performance out of them.

There is much more to it than just an HRC number.

 

[Ankerson]

From what I read they should be practically equal in edge retention, with S110V being a little tougher. I think Phil Wilson even mentioned in a post that S110V could be even more wear resistant than S125V...

Not so sure about tougher from what I have seen, neither is exactly brittle.

Don't believe everything you read.

I don't think Phil would post that by the way.

The biggest issue with S125V is working with it and the special handling that it needs, that and the extreme wear resistance.

 

[Zagorov]

Found it - Jan 2006 post:

I would say that this is a very comprehensive test on this knife. I certainly shows the edge holding potential of CPM S110V. This knife was pushed to the hardness and edge geometry limit and optimized for cutting abrasive materials like the rope and cardboard Jim used to challenge the blade. The hardness at 63.5 is about as hard as I can get this steel and still allow for a little tempering. Normally RC hardness values are expressed as plus or minus one point and to be correct I should have specified it this way. In this case I am confident the hardness is between 63 and 64. At this high hardness a thin blade like this would not be suitable for chopping or twisting out of the cut. Joe wanted this knife to be bare bones, no upgrades or special treatment. Therefore the Micarta handle, surface ground finish on the flats, belt finish on the blade and no thong hole liner. I guess you could say this is “field grade”. I used a similar blade on an antelope hunt a couple of years ago and field dressed, skinned and quartered 4 antelope and just had to back strop a couple of times to keep the edge biting good. Some would not have touched the edge at all and it would have been fine but just depends on how fussy you are about sharp. Rope cutting is a pretty good approximation of the abrasive effect of animal hair and hide so Jim’s test does give some correlation on what to expect with this steel in the field. CPM S110V is great steel but is still in short supply and is very expensive. I think there is more coming and hopefully it will be available and see more use in the future. It has equal or better performance than CPM S125V and is in the same general category as CPM 10V (K294), CPM 90V. The non stainless (10V and K294) can be pushed to a higher hardness with better edge holding and toughness, but take some care due to the potential for corrosion around salt water and wet environments. I am still working up the best heat treats for the Boher M390 and Uddeholm ELMAX. They don’t have the high carbide percentage as CPM S110V and the others but have very fine structure that can offset some of the difference and make for a great all around stainless blade. Thanks to Jim for the extensive test. I know how much work is involved and the time, effort and expense of the rope is considerable. Phil

Actually it is on a knife from S110V that you have or had.

 

[Ankerson]

Found it - Jan 2006 post:



Actually it is on a knife from S110V that you have or had.

That was a general statement.

They all are in the same general category... 10V, S110V, S125V, S90V.

From my own testing there is a difference between 10V and S110V (Same hardness and geometry) while S125V and 10V are VERY CLOSE even with S125V giving up 2 points in hardness.

That said it's hard to beat any of them. :thumbup:

I wouldn't expect to see any S125V in production knives other than that one Company and they keep the numbers low due to the issues dealing with it.

 

[martinsanders]

I'm worried about getting an s125v from just anybody. Phil says it matters how many times you temper the steel and judging from his K390 I got he really knows his stuff. I want someone that I can rely on to make it as hard but as fine grained as they can because I know I have a knife that is as close to the best as they come with Bow River but I still wonder what a 125 done perfect could do as well.


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[Ankerson]

I'm worried about getting an s125v from just anybody. Phil says it matters how many times you temper the steel and judging from his K390 I got he really knows his stuff. I want someone that I can rely on to make it as hard but as fine grained as they can because I know I have a knife that is as close to the best as they come with Bow River but I still wonder what a 125 done perfect could do as well.


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Well mine is done right, I know because I tested the hell out of it. :thumbup:

As are all the knives I have of his.

Your right, S125V has to be done correctly.

Luckily is hard to get, very expensive and extremely hard to work with so very few makers will even attempt to work with it.

To tell the truth S125V scares the hell out of me, never seen any steel actually do what this steel can really do or still be as aggressive as it still was after testing.

It's really fine grained from what I can tell, reminds me a lot of 10V in that way, but different, hard to really explain....

 

[martinsanders]

Jim have you used Rex 121 yet and if so how does it compare to these alloys we have been talking about? I understand it's a much toothier(yes that is technical steel jargon lol) edge and also a bear to grind but is like using a serrated edge? And do you loose the knife slicing feel and think of it more as a saw or something else? So far s125v seems like the ceiling in terms of knife edge retention but I may be buying into the myths/rumors. Can you or someone set me straight. I also think that the mules produced in 121 are the wrong geometry to judge and get a real feel for this steel IMHO. I just think a K2 would be a different story than the mule.


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[Zagorov]

I have read reports of REX 121 being too chippy for practical use, and anything below 18-20 DPS is begging for edge damage...