Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

I had an older model GB, solid liners no Texas logo. Sold it before I got my rockwell tester:o. Another makers knife knife in M4 with .009" @ 64 rc out performed it by a noticeable margin IMO.
 
waterstoneblades said:
I had an older model GB, solid liners no Texas logo. Sold it before I got my rockwell tester:o. Another makers knife knife in M4 with .009" @ 64 rc out performed it by a noticeable margin IMO.
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By Jim's results
CPM M4 - 740 - Phil Wilson Custom - 65 RC - .015" Behind the edge

Phil's HT is top notch and in that knife the HRC value it is really pushed to the max usable value for that steel. TBE can be brought even lower , thus approaching the 1000 cuts value.
HAP-40 and equivalent pushed to the max usable value of 67HRC, with a TBE of 0.010" should score 1300 cuts.

EDIT: misteriously this post had been cut but not by myself...admins please investigate, thanks
 
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waterstoneblades said:
Daberti, agreed. I have three knives from Phil. All are high hardness range, thin edged and solid performers.
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Phil is a master at what he does. :thumbup:

He hits that very thin line between chipping and rolling while pushing the steels to the max usable hardness.

Not many makers can do that consistently.
 
daberti said:
Vanax (formerly Vanax 35) is a very very good stainless steel, with stain resistance clearly better than AISI 420 (some say approaching 3xx class) and edge holding approaching S30V at comparable hardness. Very very very fine V nitrides of the MN type in the measure of 9%. Tougher than S30V by means of lacking the relatively bigger Cr carbides (here would be nitrides).
It takes a lovely scary sharp edge.
Vanax requires a very straightforward non nonsense HT (1080°C +DC +2x200°C), which is a plus for custommakers or even production knives. Deep cryo it is mandatory.
I keep this steel in notably high praise.
Honestly enough I have NOT any literature about Vanax 37, I just know Shigorov makes something out of it.
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Thanks Dan. From what I read vanax 35 goes up to 59-60 hrc. Is that as high as it goes(if ran with the heat treat you recommended) or can it go up a few point depending on the heat treat. Reason im asking is I read that the Tilts with vanax 75 were supposed to be around 61 hrc and my Carson Tech Griffin in Nitrobe 77 is supposed to be 62-63 hrc. Id expect vanax 35 to perform in the middle of those 2 based on composition. Though N77 is an awesome edc steel, rem7nds me of a very stainless 52100 but gets even sharper. If I can bare not having the knife I wanna send it to Jim to see how it does. Though I want to have it reground to 0.005 or so to take advantage of the steel.

Thank you in advance and sorry if I asked dumb questions.
 
d00mtr33 said:
Thanks Dan. From what I read vanax 35 goes up to 59-60 hrc. Is that as high as it goes(if ran with the heat treat you recommended) or can it go up a few point depending on the heat treat. Reason im asking is I read that the Tilts with vanax 75 were supposed to be around 61 hrc and my Carson Tech Griffin in Nitrobe 77 is supposed to be 62-63 hrc. Id expect vanax 35 to perform in the middle of those 2 based on composition. Though N77 is an awesome edc steel, rem7nds me of a very stainless 52100 but gets even sharper. If I can bare not having the knife I wanna send it to Jim to see how it does. Though I want to have it reground to 0.005 or so to take advantage of the steel.

Thank you in advance and sorry if I asked dumb questions.
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I think you can expect N77 to perform in the similar area as BD1N - 420 - Phil Wilson - 60 HRC - .020" behind the edge depending on the hardness and heat treatment done (with same thickness).

Remember. N77 was developed as a corrosion resistant steel with good abrasive resistance but exceptional resistance to chipping at high hardness.

To get a bit more technical.

"Vanadium is included in the steel in order together with nitrogen and any existing carbon to form M(N,C) nitrides, -carbides and/or -carbonitrides in the martensite matrix of the steel at hardened and tempered condition. Niobium is an element that has a strong tendency to form M(N,C)-nitrides, -carbides and/or -carbonitrides, and it exists both as primary precipitated particles and smaller secondary precipitated particles. Primary precipitated M(N,C)-nitrides, -carbides and/or -carbonitrides containing niobium are of considerably smaller size, <0.5 &#956;m, than M(N,C)-ni-trides, -carbides and/or -carbonitrides without niobium, which have the size of about 1 &#956;m. The niobium compounds may contribute to keeping down the grain size of the material, and give a better hardness of the material at about equal toughness. Together with vanadium, niobium contributes to an improved wear resistance, why the steel preferably should comprise both of these two alloying materials (Source: What I believe to be the Nitrobe 77 patent)."

Vanax was developed as a mold steel with a larger emphasis on wear resistance than N77, similar corrosion resistance but less resistance to chipping and slight lower hardness range.

The below forms part of the Niobium discussion for Vanax and why, given the composition range of the steel is not favorable as a replacement for Vanadium, but what I want to highlight is what the design of the steel was intended for.

"This may be particularly serious for the steel according to the preferred embodiment of the invention, the composition of Which being optimized in respect of its mechanical properties in order to achieve excellent Wear resistance in combination With good ductility and high hardness" (Source: Believe to be the Vanax Patent).

Both are great steels, with exceptional emphasis on cleanliness and precisely controlled composition. The composition however are catered for completely different industries.
 
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marthinus said:
I think you can expect N77 to perform in the similar area as BD1N - 420 - Phil Wilson - 60 HRC - .020" behind the edge depending on the hardness and heat treatment done (with same thickness).

Remember. N77 was developed as a corrosion resistant steel with good abrasive resistance but exceptional resistance to chipping at high hardness.

To get a bit more technical.

"Vanadium is included in the steel in order together with nitrogen and any existing carbon to form M(N,C) nitrides, -carbides and/or -carbonitrides in the martensite matrix of the steel at hardened and tempered condition. Niobium is an element that has a strong tendency to form M(N,C)-nitrides, -carbides and/or -carbonitrides, and it exists both as primary precipitated particles and smaller secondary precipitated particles. Primary precipitated M(N,C)-nitrides, -carbides and/or -carbonitrides containing niobium are of considerably smaller size, <0.5 &#956;m, than M(N,C)-ni-trides, -carbides and/or -carbonitrides without niobium, which have the size of about 1 &#956;m. The niobium compounds may contribute to keeping down the grain size of the material, and give a better hardness of the material at about equal toughness. Together with vanadium, niobium contributes to an improved wear resistance, why the steel preferably should comprise both of these two alloying materials (Source: What I believe to be the Nitrobe 77 patent)."

Vanax was developed as a mold steel with a larger emphasis on wear resistance than N77, similar corrosion resistance but less resistance to chipping and slight lower hardness range.

The below forms part of the Niobium discussion for Vanax and why, given the composition range of the steel is not favorable as a replacement for Vanadium, but what I want to highlight is what the design of the steel was intended for.

"This may be particularly serious for the steel according to the preferred embodiment of the invention, the composition of Which being optimized in respect of its mechanical properties in order to achieve excellent Wear resistance in combination With good ductility and high hardness" (Source: Believe to be the Vanax Patent).

Both are great steels, with exceptional emphasis on cleanliness and precisely controlled composition. The composition however are catered for completely different industries.
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I knew you would have chimed in ;) : N77 is a matter where you're very knowledgeable. My only sidenote is that V based NC nitrides are 0.7um sized (according to my own literature)
Nitrobe 77 is tougher at 60HRC hardness and achieves 62HRC, yet it will not be anywhere near Vanax as far as wear resistance will be concerned. Same for stain resistance.
 
bodog,

me2,
I haven't seen any evidence that one makes a superior blade vs. a well made modern/monosteel blade.
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daberti,
+1
The first additional problem of damascus being that the two steels must have the same HTing tresholds, to give the very best of each.
The second one being that they should deliver the same austenitic grain size, or you'll eventually experience unexpected chipping.
The only example of properly addressing these prerequisites coming from Sweden

Frankly, a modern monosteel PM blade is more than enough already.
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Thanks guys
I finally got back over here to read those
 
Is Jim still doing tests? When is the next one and do all the tests post to the first page(s) or do you have to search through all 145? If they are spread out is there anyway of someone posting which pages they are on?
 
martinsanders said:
Thanks
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To clarify, they are always at the bottom of the first post - the beginning of the OP was using a finer finish on the blades, and Jim stopped doing that as it masked the differences in edge-retention from knife to knife, the categories were guidelines but Jim mentioned that differences were not always abundantly clear. In the bottom of the post, he uses a coarser finish and it REALLY brings out the differences as he evinces by providing actual numbers of cuts as well as information on hardness and geometry to clarify the strengths/weaknesses of each design beyond the steel-type.

Looking forward to each new addition :thumbup::)
 
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