Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

sodak said:
Krups 4116 works best in the kitchen for me. If you could see the way my family treats knives.... I have to keep the good ones hidden!

Now S110V is really starting to peak my curiosity...
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In one of Phils knives with his HT it's some really amazing stuff. :D

Love the way those High Alloy, High Carbide steels cut and with his blades they just fall through stuff. :D
 
Howdy Jim,

Thanks for the thousandth time for doing all these tests. Your work and enthusiasm really drive a lot of knowledge for us knife nuts here.

I have a few questions if you have time:
1. Do you have hardness numbers for the Spyderco M390 Mule yet? Some of the threads about the M390 Millie make me wonder.
2. If the M390 is in the same category as S90V, which do you think is actually better, edge retention wise? I'm not going to ask for the head to head like you did with the S90V and CTS-20CP...just your estimation would be great!
3. Did this M390 cut aggressively like your previously tested one to a point that the initial down force was below the 14-15 lb threshold?

Thanks as always,
 
Gunsnknives said:
Howdy Jim,

Thanks for the thousandth time for doing all these tests. Your work and enthusiasm really drive a lot of knowledge for us knife nuts here.

I have a few questions if you have time:
1. Do you have hardness numbers for the Spyderco M390 Mule yet? Some of the threads about the M390 Millie make me wonder.
2. If the M390 is in the same category as S90V, which do you think is actually better, edge retention wise? I'm not going to ask for the head to head like you did with the S90V and CTS-20CP...just your estimation would be great!
3. Did this M390 cut aggressively like your previously tested one to a point that the initial down force was below the 14-15 lb threshold?

Thanks as always,
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Haven't mailed it yet with my crazy schedule....

I get off early all this week so i should be able to mail it out.

M390 is a pretty aggresive cutter, yes it was the same as the last one.

It all depends on hardness and the Ht really.
 
Hey Jim,

First off thanks so much for doing these tests, they are really informative and have been a great help to me.

I know most of the testing you do involves cutting manila rope but I am curious about how some steels stack up in the chopping department.

Just from your experience, what steel is the best for chopping wood? When you take into account edge retention, toughness, and hardness, what steel comes out on top? I use mainly swamp rats for chopping and have not used any Custom choppers.

SR101 with a differential heat treat holds an amazing edge, and from my use of the Killa Zilla I think SR101 with the differential treat holds an edge about the same as INFI, which both hold and edge much longer than 1095.

I am curious about how a steel like M4 would compare to SR101 and INFI. Will an M4 chopper, say with an edge around 61-62, have sufficient toughness to be used heavily? How will its edge retention compare to SR101 and INFI?

There doesn't seem to be much progress with steels that are used for bigger knives and choppers. We get new super steels every year for smaller blades but aside from Farid's CPM 121 Rex choppers, Ive seen very few new particle steels used.

If you could have a custom chopper made, what steel would you use?
 
KalEl said:
Hey Jim,

First off thanks so much for doing these tests, they are really informative and have been a great help to me.

I know most of the testing you do involves cutting manila rope but I am curious about how some steels stack up in the chopping department.

Just from your experience, what steel is the best for chopping wood? When you take into account edge retention, toughness, and hardness, what steel comes out on top? I use mainly swamp rats for chopping and have not used any Custom choppers.

SR101 with a differential heat treat holds an amazing edge, and from my use of the Killa Zilla I think SR101 with the differential treat holds an edge about the same as INFI, which both hold and edge much longer than 1095.

I am curious about how a steel like M4 would compare to SR101 and INFI. Will an M4 chopper, say with an edge around 61-62, have sufficient toughness to be used heavily? How will its edge retention compare to SR101 and INFI?

There doesn't seem to be much progress with steels that are used for bigger knives and choppers. We get new super steels every year for smaller blades but aside from Farid's CPM 121 Rex choppers, Ive seen very few new particle steels used.

If you could have a custom chopper made, what steel would you use?
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Couldn't really say on the M4 steel chopping wise, not really any options around to compare to my Busses and I don't see anyone handing me a Custom knife in M4 to test so you know how it is (i don't blame them either because I really put the choppers through hell and back). LOL

SR101 and INFI are about the same to me chopping wise.
 
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Ankerson said:
Update. :)

M390 Mule came in at 60.5 HRC..
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I think I'm puzzled, but that's not a novelty. :D :confused:

Jim, is the difference between the results below the half point RC, or primary and/or secondary bevel, or... ???

Category 1

CPM-S90V (Military and Para 2) (60)
CTS-20CP (Para 2) (60)
M390 (Mule) (60.5)

Category 2

M390 (60)
CPM M4 (62.5)
CPM-S90V (59) (Manix 2 with 30 Degree Micro Bevel)
CPM-S60V
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JNewell said:
I think I'm puzzled, but that's not a novelty. :D :confused:

Jim, is the difference between the results below the half point RC, or primary and/or secondary bevel, or... ???
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It's the hardness, remember + or - 1 RC...... :)

The Mule was noticeably different than the BM knife as in I didn't see any rolling with the Mule so i had a really good idea around what the hardness might be.
 
Thanks for the update for the M390 Mule hardness. Amazing that 1/2 point in hardness will make a difference (yes I understand that the hardness rating is non-linear...still cool though).

I hope the Millies in M390 come in that hardness...maybe just a hair harder too.

Jim, what do you think an optimal hardness would be for the Millie in M390? Assuming the Millie will be a slicer, do you think RC of 62 would work? I understand the Millie could be used as a Tactical blade, so maybe it would be run a bit lower for toughness?

Thanks again,
 
Gunsnknives said:
Thanks for the update for the M390 Mule hardness. Amazing that 1/2 point in hardness will make a difference (yes I understand that the hardness rating is non-linear...still cool though).

I hope the Millies in M390 come in that hardness...maybe just a hair harder too.

Jim, what do you think an optimal hardness would be for the Millie in M390? Assuming the Millie will be a slicer, do you think RC of 62 would work? I understand the Millie could be used as a Tactical blade, so maybe it would be run a bit lower for toughness?

Thanks again,
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I don't know if they can get to 62 HRC in production heat treating since they have to work in a range. From what i have been told it's not easy to get M390 to 62 HRC, everything has to be right dead on.

So if they can work in a 1 HRC range then something around 60.5 - 61.5 would be fine IMO.

M390 is pretty tough even at 62 HRC really, I pushed it pretty hard ground very thin so i doubt there would be a problem at typical production knife thickness.

The Bottom knife is M390 at 62 HRC and .009" behind the edge at 24 degrees inclusive and it's seen a lot of use.

DSC_3367.JPG
 
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Added VANAX 75 in Cat 2.

Interesting steel, really doesn't like a high polished edge too much, well at cutting rope anyway.

I think it would do better with a less refined edge, like a semi polished edge for those who will be using the Tilts.

It does get screaming sharp though without too much trouble.

Interesting steel....
 
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Ankerson said:
Added VANAX 75 in Cat 2.

Interesting steel, really doesn't like a high polished edge too much, well at cutting rope anyway.

I think it would do better with a less refined edge, like a semi polished edge for those who will be using the Tilts.

It does get screaming sharp though without too much trouble.

Interesting steel....
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How tired were you after that test? I've tried cutting some rope with my Tilt, and the blade is so thick at the edge that it just doesn't like to cut.

Scared to thin it down, because then the bevel will be extremely wide. Not impressed with it's cutting ability. (not talking about edge retention here)
 
CrimsonTideShooter said:
How tired were you after that test? I've tried cutting some rope with my Tilt, and the blade is so thick at the edge that it just doesn't like to cut.

Scared to thin it down, because then the bevel will be extremely wide. Not impressed with it's cutting ability. (not talking about edge retention here)
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I reprofiled it to 30 inclusive for the process of ranking.

It wasn't too bad.

Got the go ahead to do my full battery of testing on it so I will be doing that review soon.
 
This is one of my most favorite threads on bladeforums. I am looking and reading here alot as I try to become more of a steel junkie. It was jims tests that convinced me to try M390 and S90V for the first time. Since the experimentation with these steels in knifemaking I have come to prefer S90V and CPM 3V in the knives that I make.
Thanks for all of this info that is available.

What steels are in the testing process now?
 
chrisber said:
This is one of my most favorite threads on bladeforums. I am looking and reading here alot as I try to become more of a steel junkie. It was jims tests that convinced me to try M390 and S90V for the first time. Since the experimentation with these steels in knifemaking I have come to prefer S90V and CPM 3V in the knives that I make.
Thanks for all of this info that is available.

What steels are in the testing process now?
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I don't have anything new currently, I still need to finish with 440V then that should be it for awhile I think in production blades. :)
 
Just wanted to thank you for all your hard work. And a small shout out to 8cr13mov, many of us would love to see how it stacks up.
 
Do you have an old Buck to test Jim? I'm curious to see how the 420HC that Buck uses stacks up against the rest of them.
 
Noctis3880 said:
Do you have an old Buck to test Jim? I'm curious to see how the 420HC that Buck uses stacks up against the rest of them.
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They and a bunch of other knives ended up missing during a move a very long time ago.
 
Ankerson said:
Yes, it was a 2010 Recon 1, I used that because it's was AUS-8A and they really know how to HT it.
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The recon 1 is different than the other aus8a in heat treat. Lynn said that not all of them were sub-zero. I can tell the difference in the hardness and edge holding over my regular voyagers .
 
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