Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

Ankerson- do you have any thoughts on cpm m4 @ rc64 (Benchmade 810 Contego)? What was your test knife if you remember?

Also, I'm sure it's been asked but do you have any plans for 204p? I'm curious to see how Spydercos (southard) stacks up against m390.

Thanks!
 
Will York said:
That's a great point, Jim--obviously you've given this a lot more thought than I have. Thanks for your insight. :thumbup:

Will
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Yeah that's what I do, I test steels... :)

Just haven't see anything worth testing come my way..
 
Strigamort said:
Ankerson- do you have any thoughts on cpm m4 @ rc64 (Benchmade 810 Contego)? What was your test knife if you remember?

Also, I'm sure it's been asked but do you have any plans for 204p? I'm curious to see how Spydercos (southard) stacks up against m390.

Thanks!
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The test knife was a Spyderco GB.

I seriously doubt that BM was running M4 at 64, they operate in a hardness range, like 62-64 and what they turn out to be is on the lower end of the hardness range if the knives are HRC tested..

Might test the 204P Para 2 as that would be thinner and comparable to M390 knives I tested.
 
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Hmm maybe I could have them test mine while it's there. I got the impression that they run it pretty hard after talking to them about it the other day. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong though.

Anyway, thanks for getting back to me. I appreciate your efforts.
 
Ankerson said:
The test knife was a Spyderco GB.

I seriously doubt that BM was running M4 at 64, they operate in a hardness range, like 62-64 and what they turn out to be is on the lower end of the hardness range if the knives are HRC tested..

Might test the 204P Para 2 as that would be thinner and comparable to M390 knives I tested.
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I sent a few knives out to be tested about 1.5 months ago, and my M4 Griptillian came back at 64 on the dot, on that machine at least. Who knows, maybe they really have ramped it up a good bit?

As an aside, my S35VN Seb 21 came out at 58 flat........pathetic. But whatever. I've learned my lesson on this. I don't share my opinions anymore! :D
 
CrimsonTideShooter said:
I sent a few knives out to be tested about 1.5 months ago, and my M4 Griptillian came back at 64 on the dot, on that machine at least. Who knows, maybe they really have ramped it up a good bit?

As an aside, my S35VN Seb 21 came out at 58 flat........pathetic. But whatever. I've learned my lesson on this. I don't share my opinions anymore! :D
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Interesting. My contacting them (BKC) in the first place was on the recommendation of their liason here on their sub-forum. My understanding was that they ran different heat treatments on the 810. At first running the m4 soft-ish then switching it up to what it is today. Their response was that they have been run hard from the get-go.
Ankerson, I'm going to contact them and see if there is any chance of them doing a test on my blade while it's there. I'll let you know what they say.
 
Which M4 Grip, the Gold Class, or one of the Ritters, or ?

CrimsonTideShooter said:
I sent a few knives out to be tested about 1.5 months ago, and my M4 Griptillian came back at 64 on the dot, on that machine at least. Who knows, maybe they really have ramped it up a good bit?

As an aside, my S35VN Seb 21 came out at 58 flat........pathetic. But whatever. I've learned my lesson on this. I don't share my opinions anymore! :D
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JNewell said:
Which M4 Grip, the Gold Class, or one of the Ritters, or ?
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Hey bro! It is the new exclusive run for GP Knives. It is just your standard black Grip, with a BK-1 coated M4 blade.

Superb knife by the way. Out of the box it far out cuts a stock Para 2. They ground them pretty thin, and they are pretty hard apparently!

I also want to note, the person who did the testing for me is a custom knife maker, and he said that his machine is supposed to be accurate to +/- .5 So, it's possible that the grip blade was 63.5. It was tested in 3 different spots also if that means anything.
 
his machine is supposed to be accurate to +/- .5
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Different Rockwell tester machines can only be trusted to agree with one another to ±1 because the standards to which they are calibrated are only guaranteed to match that well, even though those standards are traceable to the National Standard. If you do all your testing on one machine, the results can be good to a decimal point or so.
 
Sorry, forgot about that one. Should be the the same as the other one I forgot :rolleyes: about, the ShotShow special!!! BM is now running M4 at 62-64 Rc, according to their website, which is a big step up from the earlier M4 blades. Your results say they really are hitting that range, which is excellent.

CrimsonTideShooter said:
Hey bro! It is the new exclusive run for GP Knives. It is just your standard black Grip, with a BK-1 coated M4 blade.

Superb knife by the way. Out of the box it far out cuts a stock Para 2. They ground them pretty thin, and they are pretty hard apparently!

I also want to note, the person who did the testing for me is a custom knife maker, and he said that his machine is supposed to be accurate to +/- .5 So, it's possible that the grip blade was 63.5. It was tested in 3 different spots also if that means anything.
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knarfeng said:
Different Rockwell tester machines can only be trusted to agree with one another to ±1 because the standards to which they are calibrated are only guaranteed to match that well, even though those standards are traceable to the National Standard. If you do all your testing on one machine, the results can be good to a decimal point or so.
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Ahh ok I didn't know that. Thanks!

On a side note, is a Rockwell tester something that I as an enthusiast could get my hands on, or is it cost prohibitive? Being able to test my own knives would be amazing.
 
JNewell said:
Sorry, forgot about that one. Should be the the same as the other one I forgot :rolleyes: about, the ShotShow special!!! BM is now running M4 at 62-64 Rc, according to their website, which is a big step up from the earlier M4 blades. Your results say they really are hitting that range, which is excellent.
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The whole reason I sent that blade in particular to be tested is because I was using these results to either validate my opinions, or give me hard evidence that I can't form opinions solely based on my experience in cutting. I still can't say either way, but what I can say is that the new M4 grip I got has held it's edge better than almost every other knife I've ever used, save for my S90V Para 2 and the S110v RJ Martin I tested for a while.

It is honestly a bit surprising just how long this 112 dollar knife stays sharp. I figured that it had to be really hard, and the hrc test seems to parallel that idea. But, if there's one thing I've learned over the last year or so is that steel+HT are definitely NOT the only factors that contribute to edge retention.
 
Crimson Tide. Rockwell testers can be purchased for around $1000 for an off shore machine to $10,000 plus for a new machine with digital read out. The offshore machines I have experience with are reasonably consistent but the main thing is to have a test block that is really calibrated to the standard. I have seen test blocks as far off as 4 points. A mirror polished, precise, calibrated test block can be obtained from Instrom, Rockwell/Wilson Instruments. They basically hold the standard in their lab. They are around $150 last I checked. I was at the Crucible mill in 2000 and took my test block with me and compared to their machines. It was right on within the tolerance of +/- .5 point. It seems credible to me that your M-4 blade is 62 +/-. M4 really pops in the heat treat, I have a knife of my own that is 66. Phil
 
Phil Wilson said:
Crimson Tide. Rockwell testers can be purchased for around $1000 for an off shore machine to $10,000 plus for a new machine with digital read out. The offshore machines I have experience with are reasonably consistent but the main thing is to have a test block that is really calibrated to the standard. I have seen test blocks as far off as 4 points. A mirror polished, precise, calibrated test block can be obtained from Instrom, Rockwell/Wilson Instruments. They basically hold the standard in their lab. They are around $150 last I checked. I was at the Crucible mill in 2000 and took my test block with me and compared to their machines. It was right on within the tolerance of +/- .5 point. It seems credible to me that your M-4 blade is 62 +/-. M4 really pops in the heat treat, I have a knife of my own that is 66. Phil
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Wow thanks for weighing in Phil! So techincally I could have my own calibrated offshore machine for around 1500? I may think of doing that some time soon. I could sell a couple of knives and have that covered pretty quickly.

Also, I can only imagine how awesome M4 is at 66! One question, does it affect the corrosion resistance (or lack thereof on M4) when pushing the hardness that high?
 
Phil Wilson said:
Crimson Tide. Rockwell testers can be purchased for around $1000 for an off shore machine to $10,000 plus for a new machine with digital read out. The offshore machines I have experience with are reasonably consistent but the main thing is to have a test block that is really calibrated to the standard. I have seen test blocks as far off as 4 points. A mirror polished, precise, calibrated test block can be obtained from Instrom, Rockwell/Wilson Instruments. They basically hold the standard in their lab. They are around $150 last I checked. I was at the Crucible mill in 2000 and took my test block with me and compared to their machines. It was right on within the tolerance of +/- .5 point. It seems credible to me that your M-4 blade is 62 +/-. M4 really pops in the heat treat, I have a knife of my own that is 66. Phil
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Thanks for sharing the information phil! M4 @66 must perform well. What do you think of hrc files for testing hardness?
 
I had a chance to get the M4 Grip while it was still available. Last December was a crazy knife month for me so I passed it up. John, hearing you talk about the knife here and on several of your vids makes me feel like a complete dummy for missing out at $112.

I do have two M4 SHOT Special Grips on preorder but BM is currently backed up on them, no word on when they will ship out. I'm eager to get my hands on them and try one out now, would have loved to have the GP version as a user instead though.... Dangit.

Hi Phil, I heard somewhere about a smaller version of the Spyderco South Fork in the works; sign me up for one!
 
The portable hardness testers can work but also frustrating. I had one that would go in a drill press an it was all over the map. Files will help you bracket the hardness within a few points and in experienced hands better than that. If you want consistent testing that you can put money on then there is no substitute for good equipment. My Rockwell tester was made in 1944, is about 250 lbs of cast iron and is basically the same machine they make today but with analog rather than digital read out. One of the best $2000 I ever spent for my knife shop.

The prototype Spyderco has is a slightly modified version of my Bird and Trout. Steel is CPM S90v on the proto. Right now it is a concept only. Hopefully it will make it to production but a few others ahead of it I am sure. Phil
 
The Mastiff said:
In my experience it's a bit more wear resistant. It's toughness too has always seemed to me to be more than what the various charts say. Even at rc 62-63 it's substantially tougher than D2, Super Blue ( at Rc 62or above), S30V, etc. Not quite A2 tough by the charts but for a tough edge, not chopping the Cruwear seems even tougher to me than A2. I'm the one that talks about having carved my initials in a structural I beam on a (B&N) rail road bridge I built out in Nebraska one summer without damage to the edge other than surface marking on the edge. It took a lot of force to do that.

Anyway I'll be here and on record as saying Cruwear will take some here by surprise. It always seems to amongst those who are looking at the composition of steels in the A11 class, or S110V. Cruwear seems positively boring in comparison. It can take a nice biting, savage edge and keep it for a long time. It does better at higher sharpness levels than S30V. Cutting to dull? I've not done that comparison yet but my guess would still be Cruwear.

It takes rc 62-63 with less chippyness than D2 in my useage. I've never gove super thin like I have super blue, W2, 52100 etc, but have done from 30 to 45 degrees without incident. At no time did I chop or pry though. It's not really my habit with knives but I do scrape things.

All in all Cruwear, like BG42 seems to perform at higher levels than one would expect. With BG42 it's wear resistance. It's up there in super steel category in everything except composition. Nothing exotic, yet it cuts like hell.

No, It's not up to my S110V ( rc 63.5) Phil Wilson custom level wear wise. It's not even up to S90V at production ( rc 59-60) yet it's not as far behing as one would think.

An old test from a well known guy that tests Vascowear amongst other things: http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/edge.htm
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Thanks for that insight. I am more excited about trying it now than the charts were making me.
 
The Mastiff said:
In my experience it's a bit more wear resistant. It's toughness too has always seemed to me to be more than what the various charts say. Even at rc 62-63 it's substantially tougher than D2, Super Blue ( at Rc 62or above), S30V, etc. Not quite A2 tough by the charts but for a tough edge, not chopping the Cruwear seems even tougher to me than A2. I'm the one that talks about having carved my initials in a structural I beam on a (B&N) rail road bridge I built out in Nebraska one summer without damage to the edge other than surface marking on the edge. It took a lot of force to do that.

Anyway I'll be here and on record as saying Cruwear will take some here by surprise. It always seems to amongst those who are looking at the composition of steels in the A11 class, or S110V. Cruwear seems positively boring in comparison. It can take a nice biting, savage edge and keep it for a long time. It does better at higher sharpness levels than S30V. Cutting to dull? I've not done that comparison yet but my guess would still be Cruwear.

It takes rc 62-63 with less chippyness than D2 in my useage. I've never gove super thin like I have super blue, W2, 52100 etc, but have done from 30 to 45 degrees without incident. At no time did I chop or pry though. It's not really my habit with knives but I do scrape things.

All in all Cruwear, like BG42 seems to perform at higher levels than one would expect. With BG42 it's wear resistance. It's up there in super steel category in everything except composition. Nothing exotic, yet it cuts like hell.
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I just read this and find it quite impressive. Especially the part where you carved your initials into a structural I-beam with no damage to the blade? WOW! :eek:
What knife/knives use Cruwear? I'm not at all familiar with it.
-Bruce
 
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