Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

MELERIAN said:
Why? I mean...D2 is used in Industrial Scissors and, in my experience, D2 at a maximum hrc of 58/59, is a real good old steel.
I mean...It will not chip easily, not even with a real thin edge. It will NOT takes an real scary laser edge, but it will keep it a for a nice time, and you can shave easily anyway.
It's, to me, an "often found" wrong attitude with this steel. Maybe 'cause of unproper HT of the past makers. Infact, i don't believe that 60 or more hc are good for D2. You must stays under 60, and with the right treatment it wil have better response in every single aspect, included stain and rust resistance.
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I'm not simply repeating what I've heard, it's based on personal experience. Here's a picture (photobucket has changed drastically, hope this works) of a Queen 4180 in D2. I thinned the edge out, and look what happened. I have always had great experience with Queen's D2, this one is at 10 deg (or so) inclusive. Once I put a microbevel on it, no more chipping doing the exact same task.

http://m137.photobucket.com/albumvi...fMHtp30dJGtZ98PCnSIuaXggBtpEMoGxfoAtFk2tzwfU=

Yes, D2 used in industrial applications for cutting metal (so I've heard), but it won't have the side load that a knife experiences, and I'm sure that an industrial edge is much thicker than a knife. I find it amusing when I hear people say that D2 won't take a great edge. I find it takes a screaming edge, and holds it very well. It might not be up there with S90V, but it's nothing to sneeze at.
 
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Rurouni said:
I'm betting Cruwear fits into the category with XHP, SB, et al. I hope Ankerson is getting some perks out of this :o

I was sad to see vg-10 get put so low -- the 'g' stands for gold, gold baby, gold!
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Doubt it, Check this info out.
http://www.crucible.com/PDFs\DataSheets2010\dscruwearv12010.pdf

and the 3V data sheet that has a better compare graph, http://www.crucible.com/eselector/prodbyapp/tooldie/cpm3vt.html
and S30V date sheet (with D2 on a compare chart) http://www.crucible.com/PDFs\DataSheets2010\dsS30Vv1 2010.pdf


It seems like an in-between in terms of performance to CPM M4 and CPM D2, but closer to D2. It seems like a downgrade from S30V imo. It is a little tougher than S30V, but comes up short in wear resistance. Of course, these are just charts.
 
dflores said:
I love my s110v bow river, i love it so much i'd take another one in a drop point! Dull and s110v do not even belong in the same sentence. If you can get your hand's on one do not even think twice about it.
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I am hoping he does a few in the drop point model :). But like you said I am going to snag one either way. I think Phil's work is a must to own for steel junkies. And his work is a grail for me.
 
MELERIAN said:
Why? I mean...D2 is used in Industrial Scissors and, in my experience, D2 at a maximum hrc of 58/59, is a real good old steel.
I mean...It will not chip easily, not even with a real thin edge. It will NOT takes an real scary laser edge, but it will keep it a for a nice time, and you can shave easily anyway.
It's, to me, an "often found" wrong attitude with this steel. Maybe 'cause of unproper HT of the past makers. Infact, i don't believe that 60 or more hc are good for D2. You must stays under 60, and with the right treatment it wil have better response in every single aspect, included stain and rust resistance.
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Not sure I can agree with this. I had contacted BM to ask about exactly this in regards to Rockwell Hardness, and here is the reply I received;
Kevin Walker said:
Hello Bruce

Yes we did make the Rant for several years and it was produced in a few different steels. You are correct the D2 version was a Rockwell hardness of 60 to 62.

Thank you for choosing Benchmade Knife Company

Kevin Walker
Customer Service Representative
800-800-7427 ext 155
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-Bruce
 
Just wanted to add my humble opinion to this thread.

I've been carying a BM 921 in S30V for about five years or more. I've sharpened this knife with a Spyderco Shapemaker (not even sure if they called it that when I got it back then) numerous times and have always been able to get a keen edge. It was never completely dull but always needed sharpened when I would touch it up.

So tonight I touched up my CPM M4 Grip that would not shave for the first time with the exact same sharpener I've been using for a long time. It took me literally a fraction of the time to bring this edge back to shaving sharp.

It was very interesting to me that it literally took me a fraction of the time to sharpen the CPM M4 as opposed to the S30V that I am used to.
 
What an incredible body of work. Thank you, Jim. :thumbup:

Would love to see more tool and spring steels like M2, A2, W1, W2, 01, 1095, 1084, 5160 (at higher than 55 HRC), and of course the bearing steels like 52100, BG42. Are you actively trying to find blades in any of these more basic/conventional/traditional steels?

Thanks again,
Will
 
Will York said:
What an incredible body of work. Thank you, Jim. :thumbup:

Would love to see more tool and spring steels like M2, A2, W1, W2, 01, 1095, 1084, 5160 (at higher than 55 HRC), and of course the bearing steels like 52100, BG42. Are you actively trying to find blades in any of these more basic/conventional/traditional steels?

Thanks again,
Will
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The main issues with finding blades in those above steels are they are usually low hardness, thick (Pry bars), coated and lower hardness, that's the usual finds.

So purpose blades that are high hardness, thin so they would be worth testing would be limited to customs.. And in the 4"-5" range and flat ground....

By thin I am talking about less than .025" behind the edge AND not the usual 3/16" to 1/4" plus that we are used to seeing.

Then we start getting into alloy content, something that is very low as would the carbide content to aid with wear resistance so for the most part the blades would have to be in the 64-65 RC range to make a real difference (From the same steels at normal hardness) that might show up in this testing process. Alloy content just isn't something you can get around, if it's not there, it's just not there no matter what one does, in this type of testing from what I have seen they all do pretty much the same thing and that is they go dull very fast.

The only exception to that would be BG-42 because it has a decent amount of carbide making alloys so it should perform.

The bottom line here really is a few things:

1) Alloy content is the most important thing along with RC hardness and blade and Edge geometry when it comes to wear resistance.

2) There are no magic heat treatments and or processes that will make ANY lower alloy steel perform above it's original alloy content enough to compare to the higher alloy steels given the same set of variables. In other words nothing will make them perform any were on the same planet with steels like CPM 10V no matter who makes the blade or what they do to it, it's just never going to happen in the real world.

3) I have tested and or owned blades in those steels over the years so it's not like I am just guessing here about how they would perform.


It's not that I wouldn't test blades in those steels and put them into the list......

I just won't do it on my own dime.....

This isn't a push cutting test, I make draw cuts through the rope because it's a wear resistant test.
 
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Its great to see 3v on the results. And I'm going to chime in with what I think makes it great. The fact that because of the high toughness it can be hardened more to take advantage of its carbides while avoiding dulling from edge deformation and chipping. If you don't plan on using it like a prybar you could harden it beyond Rc60 without compromizing its usefulness.

This really is (to me at least a bible of what steels fall where) certainly in my personal experience the results reflect the edge holding I see in my personal knives.

And lest we get confused even the low category steels are way beyond what most non-knife folks experience in the knives they own. The super steels are beyond belief for them... S90V at Rc60... Amazing.
 
I'm betting Cruwear fits into the category with XHP, SB, et al.
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In my experience it's a bit more wear resistant. It's toughness too has always seemed to me to be more than what the various charts say. Even at rc 62-63 it's substantially tougher than D2, Super Blue ( at Rc 62or above), S30V, etc. Not quite A2 tough by the charts but for a tough edge, not chopping the Cruwear seems even tougher to me than A2. I'm the one that talks about having carved my initials in a structural I beam on a (B&N) rail road bridge I built out in Nebraska one summer without damage to the edge other than surface marking on the edge. It took a lot of force to do that.

Anyway I'll be here and on record as saying Cruwear will take some here by surprise. It always seems to amongst those who are looking at the composition of steels in the A11 class, or S110V. Cruwear seems positively boring in comparison. It can take a nice biting, savage edge and keep it for a long time. It does better at higher sharpness levels than S30V. Cutting to dull? I've not done that comparison yet but my guess would still be Cruwear.

It takes rc 62-63 with less chippyness than D2 in my useage. I've never gove super thin like I have super blue, W2, 52100 etc, but have done from 30 to 45 degrees without incident. At no time did I chop or pry though. It's not really my habit with knives but I do scrape things.

All in all Cruwear, like BG42 seems to perform at higher levels than one would expect. With BG42 it's wear resistance. It's up there in super steel category in everything except composition. Nothing exotic, yet it cuts like hell.

No, It's not up to my S110V ( rc 63.5) Phil Wilson custom level wear wise. It's not even up to S90V at production ( rc 59-60) yet it's not as far behing as one would think.

An old test from a well known guy that tests Vascowear amongst other things: http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/edge.htm
 
Can anyone point me in the direction of some good info on CTS-XHP? I've been playing with a Strider SA-GG w the steel and I'm just not that impressed. It's a fine steel and all & definitely retains a nice micro serrated working edge (as reported) but I'm having way better results with S30V. I even went so far as to buy a Strider EB (S30V, 1/4" stock) to compare it to. I've noted next to zero of other's reported findings. The EB holds an edge better and is seriously easier to sharpen. (First thing outta the box I removed the fugly stripes and bead blast on the blade which seriously dulled the blade...waaay more than the most brutal tasks Im likely to put my knives through.) I'm not measuring anything really. ..just using the knives. Yesterday I shaved some burrs off of mild steel left over from using an abrasive wheel on a chop saw. Both knives did fine but the EB had no noticeable edge deformation and the SA had rolls and micro chips. It then took a lot of work on a steel, over 100 strokes on diamond stones and equal that on Med and fine stones to get the edge back. When I first got the EB I put a nice edge on it and chopped a pine 2x4 in half and then shaved it to pieces... The edge was still perfect. Just doing the shaving with the CTS-XHP SA-GG there were VERY small but noticeable micro chips.

Again I'm just looking to validate (or not) my findings and get some good solid info on CTS-XHP.
 
What would be the optimum hardness for M390? 62 or 63?

Thanks for all the awesome information. I can't believe how much info is in this thread.

Craig
 
Thank you for taking time to post your reply on the lower carbon steels, Jim, and I do understand. I didn't expect them to compete--just wondered by what margin they fell short of those you've already tested, and how they rank out among themselves. But I can see why you would have trouble finding the appropriate geometry and also why interest is probably low given how much better the edge holding is on these you've tested.

The thing that occurs to me about your testing so far is that so many of the steels tested are appropriate mainly for soft material cutting rather than uses that include impacts/chopping, INFI and 5160 being the obvious exceptions among the steels so far. I was looking for an edge-holding comparison between harder use steels, knowing they wouldn't stack up to the best of your steels in edge-holding tests.

Thanks again, though, for all the hard work and for your reply.

Will
 
Will York said:
Thank you for taking time to post your reply on the lower carbon steels, Jim, and I do understand. I didn't expect them to compete--just wondered by what margin they fell short of those you've already tested, and how they rank out among themselves. But I can see why you would have trouble finding the appropriate geometry and also why interest is probably low given how much better the edge holding is on these you've tested.

The thing that occurs to me about your testing so far is that so many of the steels tested are appropriate mainly for soft material cutting rather than uses that include impacts/chopping, INFI and 5160 being the obvious exceptions among the steels so far. I was looking for an edge-holding comparison between harder use steels, knowing they wouldn't stack up to the best of your steels in edge-holding tests.

Thanks again, though, for all the hard work and for your reply.

Will
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Hi Will,

I think it would be best to compare them against each other with a coarse edge instead of a polished edge.

That way the smaller differences would show up as they are all pretty close to each other in performance edge retention wise.

Jim
 
The Mastiff said:
All in all Cruwear, like BG42 seems to perform at higher levels than one would expect. With BG42 it's wear resistance. It's up there in super steel category in everything except composition. Nothing exotic, yet it cuts like hell.
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Not the best place to ask this, but not totally off-topic either (I hope :))
Is there any indication as to what HRC had Spyderco run their 2006 Millie sprint run at? I think it would be very interesting to see how BG-42 fares against S90V or M390 (especially since they are available on the same platform)
 
Ankerson said:
Hi Will,

I think it would be best to compare them against each other with a coarse edge instead of a polished edge.

That way the smaller differences would show up as they are all pretty close to each other in performance edge retention wise.

Jim
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That's a great point, Jim--obviously you've given this a lot more thought than I have. Thanks for your insight. :thumbup:

Will
 
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