Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

Jim, good to see you around.

Don't set your self back progress wise. I did that once and ended up having another surgery on one of my shoulders. With me it was weights that did it as I was working with the therapist on them and thought I could get back faster than she wanted me to as I had been working with weights for years and thought I knew better. Joints are funny, complicated things with more than just bones to go wrong.

Oh yeah, did I mention again that we are getting old? :)

It is good to see you around though. A lot of us here look at new knives and ask ourselves " I wonder how this would perform in Jim's test".

Every time a new steel comes out in fact. :D

Welcome back Jim!

Joe
 
The Mastiff said:
Jim, good to see you around.

Don't set your self back progress wise. I did that once and ended up having another surgery on one of my shoulders. With me it was weights that did it as I was working with the therapist on them and thought I could get back faster than she wanted me to as I had been working with weights for years and thought I knew better. Joints are funny, complicated things with more than just bones to go wrong.

Oh yeah, did I mention again that we are getting old? :)

It is good to see you around though. A lot of us here look at new knives and ask ourselves " I wonder how this would perform in Jim's test".

Every time a new steel comes out in fact. :D

Welcome back Jim!

Joe
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Thanks Joe. :)
 
Jim,
Would you entrust someone, under your supervision of course, to carry out the physical part of your testing procedure? You explain in enough detail that someone could replicate your methods closely, but if you did everything except the actual cutting (sharpening, your exact rope, scale etc.), it should be good enough to be considered.
 
nccole said:
Jim,
Would you entrust someone, under your supervision of course, to carry out the physical part of your testing procedure? You explain in enough detail that someone could replicate your methods closely, but if you did everything except the actual cutting (sharpening, your exact rope, scale etc.), it should be good enough to be considered.
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I don't see why not, there are people in the industry that use this exact method of testing. :)

It just takes time to get the method down, get a feel for it.
 
Just wanted to thank Jim for this excellent thread and his dedicated work. Great value for the forum.

And I wanted to cast a vote for this thread to become a sticky.
 
I always check in on this thread, and I, like many, am waiting for Jim to recover... I know its tough when you have an injury.

I have to say that this thread got me to consider using custom knives with super steels and I have been amazed at how much better they truly are than the typical "production" knives. I have sold most of my production knives to finance a more compact and effective collection of custom knives.

That's said I see many custom makers still don't push their hardnesses, because like production companies they would rather have a knife roll an edge than break.

But for me as a user I virtually never put a knife to use in a way that would break it, and if I do for some reason manage to break one I would accept that I am responsible for abusing the knife. And I suspect that most who buy custom knives are of the same mind at least if buying "super steels" we want the maximum reasonable hardness to take the greatest advantage of the steel in question.

For instance in my view CPM 3V should never be run under Rc61 and probably not under RC 62... at that hardness it is still among the toughest steels used for blades. This is my vote for makers to read this discussion along with the many links that have been referenced and be more "aggressive" in their heat treat and hardness targets. Cryo is a huge help in improving toughness, and hardness.

Kudos to those makers who do and are pushing the envelope. (Phil Wilson, Big Chris, J Garrison, and other whose names escape me right now. ) Thank you for showing us how great, good knives can be.
 
Rapt_up said:
I always check in on this thread, and I, like many, am waiting for Jim to recover... I know its tough when you have an injury.
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Out on Medical leave.... For going on 7 months now.

Haven't been paid anything in 6 months now due to the Disability Company playing games...

Was a Work injury, but the Company is playing games so they aren't paying for anything including any treatment and or testing.....

So we will see....
 
Ankerson said:
Out on Medical leave.... For going on 7 months now.

Haven't been paid anything in 6 months now due to the Disability Company playing games...

Was a Work injury, but the Company is playing games so they aren't paying for anything including any treatment and or testing.....

So we will see....
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Hope you're speaking with an attorney or at least considering it. That is total BS, hope it gets worked out soon.
 
ceptor781 said:
Hope you're speaking with an attorney or at least considering it. That is total BS, hope it gets worked out soon.
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Talked with one so far, need to call one or both of the ones he recommended....

Yeah it's complete BS for sure.....

Need to get an MRI done though to see if it's permanent or not, career ending etc.

That's the test that will make the difference from what I have been told...
 
Ankerson said:
Out on Medical leave.... For going on 7 months now.

Haven't been paid anything in 6 months now due to the Disability Company playing games...

Was a Work injury, but the Company is playing games so they aren't paying for anything including any treatment and or testing.....

So we will see....
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Geez... That's a pain. And I understand, been off on medical work related and had issues with payment. Definitely get legal counsel involved. I wasn't meaning for my posting to be taken as impatience. Because its not.

Thoughts are with you.
 
Ankerson said:
Updated the RC hardness for the MT-18.
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So that's potentially 4 points HRc below the K390. I'd guess that much difference in hardness would explain most if not all of the difference in cutting performance between those two mules, depending on precisely where the K390 falls on the 62-64 HRc scale.

Crucible shows a huge gain in wear resistance when S110V is taken from 60 HRc to 63 HRc.

https://www.crucible.com/PDFs/\DataSheets2010\Datasheet CPM S110Vv12010.pdf

Another potentially confounding variable is shoulder width. I know they're both mules, but my S110V mule came in at 0.015 inches at the edge shoulder, compared to 0.0265 for the shoulder width on my K390 mule.
 
Twindog said:
So that's potentially 4 points HRc below the K390. I'd guess that much difference in hardness would explain most if not all of the difference in cutting performance between those two mules, depending on precisely where the K390 falls on the 62-64 HRc scale.

Crucible shows a huge gain in wear resistance when S110V is taken from 60 HRc to 63 HRc.

Another potentially confounding variable is shoulder width. I know they're both mules, but my S110V mule came in at 0.015 inches at the edge shoulder, compared to 0.0265 for the shoulder width on my K390 mule.
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Have been wondering about both points...but as far as I can see, only custom makers take S110V above the range Spyderco ran the MT18s at.
 
Having followed this thread and read much of it since it's beginning a few things strike me. What is it? How kick butt properly done S30V is. Completely awesome steel.

The other thing is how ZDP-189 has been around for a good while now and I think people kind of got bored with it but it is still close to the top. Great steel too.

Thanks Jim for doing all this testing. It's fun to watch and read what you post.
 
Twindog said:
So that's potentially 4 points HRc below the K390. I'd guess that much difference in hardness would explain most if not all of the difference in cutting performance between those two mules, depending on precisely where the K390 falls on the 62-64 HRc scale.

Crucible shows a huge gain in wear resistance when S110V is taken from 60 HRc to 63 HRc.

https://www.crucible.com/PDFs/\DataSheets2010\Datasheet CPM S110Vv12010.pdf


Another potentially confounding variable is shoulder width. I know they're both mules, but my S110V mule came in at 0.015 inches at the edge shoulder, compared to 0.0265 for the shoulder width on my K390 mule.
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I believe it's the hardness difference between them, but goes to show how good properly HTed S110V really can be even with the differences of behind the edge thickness taken into count.

JNewell said:
Have been wondering about both points...but as far as I can see, only custom makers take S110V above the range Spyderco ran the MT18s at.
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For the most part yes, true.

David Lowry said:
Having followed this thread and read much of it since it's beginning a few things strike me. What is it? How kick butt properly done S30V is. Completely awesome steel.

The other thing is how ZDP-189 has been around for a good while now and I think people kind of got bored with it but it is still close to the top. Great steel too.

Thanks Jim for doing all this testing. It's fun to watch and read what you post.
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I carry S30V more than any other steel, usually a Military. :)
 
Ankerson said:
I carry S30V more than any other steel, usually a Military. :)
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Hey Jim, remember when S30V got crucified on this forum by a handful of members. It was all hype, would chip easily, difficult HT, too hard, too soft, needed multiple sharpenings...The negative threads were plentiful.

Seems it turned out ok huh, even the "advocates" have all quieted down...

As you said in another thread, legends and I'll add labels die hard around here.

At least S30V has shed it's long standing negative forum reputation. Performance for the win..
 
Kai Corp. said:
Hey Jim, remember when S30V got crucified on this forum by a handful of members. It was all hype, would chip easily, difficult HT, too hard, too soft, needed multiple sharpenings...The negative threads were plentiful.

Seems it turned out ok huh, even the "advocates" have all quieted down...

As you said in another thread, legends and I'll add labels die hard around here.

At least S30V has shed it's long standing negative forum reputation. Performance for the win..
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All true, but there were some manufacturers who spent a longer time on the learning curve than others, which may have contributed to some of the early negativity.
 
Not knowing how costs enter into the equation, I'm surprised that the S35VN hasn't supplanted the earlier S30V. It seems to have better edge holding and more toughness at an equal hardness over the S30V. At a full point softer in Ankerson's tests (59 to 60) it is in the same catagory, and at only a 1/2 point harder it is two categories ahead of S30V at 58.5.
 
JNewell said:
All true, but there were some manufacturers who spent a longer time on the learning curve than others, which may have contributed to some of the early negativity.
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Perhaps, but the negativity went well beyond the steel or the manufacturers. Crucible themselves were accused of being marketeers and a hype machine, sacrificing all for the almighty dollar. It was a most pitiful and deliberate display. Yet some members gobbled it up like it was movie popcorn, and the negative label was spawned.

Unfortunately there are other platforms for most to spew their similar advocacy. One's that they can't be called out on.

Sorry for the drift.

Performance for the win....Better late than never. :thumbup:
 
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