Rannking of Sharpening Factors

[matt321]

When sharpening a pocket knife for the purposes of impressing my buddies , I would rate the usual sharpening factors in the following order with the most important first and the least important last. What's your opinion? Is anything missing?

Burr formation
Accute bevel angle :thumbup:
Burr removal
Blade steel pedigree :yawn:
Hold a constant angle
Progression from coarse to very fine abrasives and stropping
V-profile versus concave profile

Thanks,
...matt321

 

[thombrogan]

Scratch removal when progressing from coarse to very fine abrasives.

Appearance of knife (either uniform bevels like with a guided system or a wickedly high bevel with a finish that contrasts with the original look of the knife)

Steel type and concavity/convexity/flaticity should be dead last.

Just my incoherent thoughts.

 

[mycroftt]

I wouldn't necessarily go all the way to stropping if you can remove the burr without it. I always strop my whittling blades because the push cutting benefits from a highly polished blade, but I don't strop my EDC because I like the blade a bit "toothier" for general purpose cutting.

 

[Jeff Clark]

To impress people a sharpening job needs to shave and slice well. A knife that swishes hair off the back of your arm, slices newspaper without catching (preferably toilet paper), and slices ripe tomatoes without dropping a seed will really make an impression. For this kind of performance durability is irrelevant. What is important is:
1. Hone to a very low included angle all the way to the edge. A flat or hollow ground blade profile is best. Work alternate sides for minimal even burr formation.
2. Finish the edge with a very fine hone.
3. Gently put on a microbevel at a slightly greater angle using a very fine hone.
4. Strop the edge lightly on a stiff stop (possibly with polishing compound).

Notice that there is no deburring or convexing, those steps produce a stronger edge, but won't improve bragging performance. A well stropped burr will help shaving and slicing performance, it just won't be durable. Having the bevels match or be at some precise angle serves no purpose whatsoever (within reasonable bounds).

Here is a demonstration that will knock your friends' sox off. Have them take a pair of Levi's and twist the legs together into a single thick rope. Have them stretch that rope between their outstretched hands. Slice through that rope with a single slash--converting the jeans into cutoffs.

 

[db]

I'd say if your trying to impress people with your sharpening you better have an edge that looks as good as it cuts. Smooth even bevels on both sides.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Notice that there is no deburring or convexing, those steps produce a stronger edge, but won't improve bragging performance. A well stropped burr will help shaving and slicing performance, it just won't be durable.

With any steel that I notice forms a significant burr, meaning I can see it by eye and feel a side bias when shaving, the sharpness is always less (measured) than a cleanly formed edge. I also can't see why fundamentally having debris and weakened steel forming the edge would be sharper than a crisp and aligned edge of quality steel. With many steels leaving a burr on an edge and trying to strop it also quickly dulls the edge as the burr will break off almost immediately on the strop. The only way a burr would be able to be sharper than a cut edge would be if you cold worked it thinner with a steel and then aligned it perpendicular with a strop.

Many barbers will advocate forming a burr and using this to shave, Glesser notes this in the Sharpmaker video, but they are not really forming a burr in the sense that most people note when sharpening which is more abrasive debris but what barber do is similar to forming a hook on a cabinet scraper. You intentionally bias the edge to one side as it only cuts on that side of the edge. An edge with a heavy hook from a smooth steel for example will shave very smoothly on the side which is hooked, but has no shaving ability on the other side and the cutting ability in general is lower because any blade orientation which doesn't lead with the hook doesn't cut well at all. It is the easiest way to produce a shaving edge but it won't impress you friends if they take it from you and attempt to cut with the other side.

I'd say if your trying to impress people with your sharpening you better have an edge that looks as good as it cuts.

Not everyone cares about aesthetics, working people generally care how tools perform, not how they look. I have never seen anyone say that is a really pretty chainsaw. I spent the last couple of weeks clearing out a lot for friends of the family. Occasionally they stop by and they find it odd that a lot of the work is done with large knives (small saplings and I am on a loose timeline anyway) and they constantly ask to see the knives and are amazed and impressed at how well they cut. I have had a number of them request to have blades sharpened and my working blades that I personally use do not look aesthetically pleasing to most, well aside from guys like Thom and Alvin anyway. My small Sebenza never has failed to get a tremendous reaction and it looks fairly funky as kel_aa has described. However it is five degrees per side and never falls below shaving sharpness so it cuts insanely well in comparison to common stock profiles.

Most people's knives are actually really dull, hence why they are impressed that a knife can slice a tomato without mashing it. It doesn't take most to impress the average non-knife person. If you can produce a blade which can slice a piece of paper without hanging then that is the sharpest blade most people have ever seen in a LONG time.

-Cliff

 

[db]

Just ask someone who earns there living by sharpening or making knives how important a good looking edge is.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Not everyone lives in the US (consider makers of village khukuris as noted in the HI forum) and not every knife is a collector piece. The majority of them are in fact working pieces and the aesthetics are largely irrelevant. A crisp and neat edge isn't going to impress a carpenter or someone who works in a fish plant or harvests breadfuit.

People who actually use knives as working tools evaluate them accordingly. I sharpen knives for people all the time, I don't advertize it as it isn't something I enjoy doing so I generally only do it for friends and family. Even then there are no shortage of requests and I don't care what the knives look like at all and make this quite clear.

-Cliff

 

[ghost squire]

With any steel that I notice forms a significant burr, meaning I can see it by eye and feel a side bias when shaving, the sharpness is always less (measured) than a cleanly formed edge.

Agreed, a burr may feel sharp but I haven't found it to be useful for actual cutting purposes.

 

[Jeff Clark]

This topic was about ranking of how to sharpen knives to impress people. Using that metric, looks are pretty insignificant. On the other hand I think that there are more people who care what their knives look like than care if they are sharp. I buy used kitchen knives to use at the local soup kitchen. I often find that people are selling knives because they have bought prettier ones. Often they are trading-down from high quality knives that they got as wedding presents to shiny knives with pretty handles. They are particularly quick to get rid of knives when the handles are discolored by cleaning. They also get rid of them when they are marred by clumsy sharpening.

While sharpness is my number-one sharpening consideration when sharpening someone elses knives my number-two is appearance. I always try and avoid scratching the side of the blade and I also try and make the bevels look neat. One reason that I like to use a slack fine sanding belt as a later step in my honing process is that it evens out the appearance of the edge.

 

[db]

LOL The fussiest people about there tools and edges on them I’ve met are carpenters. And I’ve been in the construction biz all my life. Just go ahead and scratch up a stair makers favorite tool and see how happy he is with you. I’m sure your friends and family are very impressed with you but that doesn’t mean everyone is going to put up with a sharpening job that don’t look good. In fact I’m willing to bet very few would.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Just go ahead and scratch up a stair makers favorite tool and see how happy he is with you.

I worked in a family owned construction business for several years. I sharpen chisels, knives and axes for them on occasion. The other side of my family are (or were) fishermen and they all were farmers growing up. They all carry and use knives and none of them care for aesthetics on a knife any more than they would for a shovel. This is what their knives typically look like :

Finish carpenters don't do the same type of work so their knives and such don't contact tar, gum, etc. on a regular basis, and generally they are not involved in demo work so they don't worry about nails and other inclusions. None of the ones I have met though care at all about symmetric bevels or scratches on the thier chisels any more than they do about the scratches on the face of their hammer.

Read Lee's book on sharpening and note how often he recommends doing something like just laying a knife flat on a slack belt sander and grinding away. He, like many others, just view knives as tools. John Juranitch is the same, his aggressive relief grinds tends to effect the finish on blades readily. Watch as well Fikes sharpen his knives in his video and see how careful he is to maintain a crisp and clear edge.

-Cliff

 

[Andy_L]

polished edges impress people more

slicing a piece of paper whilst in mid air impresses people, as does this

 

[db]

The difference between an ok sharpener, a good sharpener, and an impressive sharpener is the attention to the details. All three can get a knife sharp but the better sharpeners get them looking good too. Who is more impressive? Someone who says it’s sharp and that’s good enough, or one who makes it look good as well as sharp?
1
“
Cliff said…
I sharpen knives for people all the time,
And then said..
and I don't care what the knives look like
at all and make this quite clear.

Or would you rather have someone like this
2
“
Jeff Clark said…
While sharpness is my number-one sharpening consideration when sharpening someone elses knives my number-two is appearance. I always try and avoid scratching
the side of the blade and I also try and make the bevels look neat. One reason that I like to use a slack fine sanding belt as a later step in my honing
Now witch one is more impressive?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Who is more impressive?

As a sharpener, Jeff easily, that isn't even a contest as I don't even consider myself in the same class, but it has nothing to do with the reason you noted. Most of what I know about the details of sharpening is based on what Jeff has said. Though I have done a lot of work myself, the progress has been rapidly advanced by reading what he has done as I have noted many times in the past.

I have a blade which Jeff sharpened, it was one of the many knives I passed around to the type of people I noted in the above. All of them were impressed, none of them however commented about the symmetric nature of the bevels or how crisp and clean the lines were. They however were impressed because it cut well, was very easy to sharpen, and the first guy to use it noted that it was also very sharp and the edge retention was especially high.

It was a Military in S30V, it was easy to sharpen and cut well due to the high relief grind. Proper use of micro-beveling makes grindability inconsequential. The edge retention was also most impressive for the first guy because of the minimal burr, most people tend to leave highly biased edges, especially on steels like S30V.

-Cliff

 

[thombrogan]

For impressing others, I've got to say that a knife's looks are important. Didn't realize it until I sold a knife with a thin, convexed bevel that looked great to be, but was scratched up beyond belief to the buyer. :foot: Luckily, he used it to cut something and it looked better. Humans tend to be drawn to symmetry (even bevels in this case) and a lot of us like wickedly shiny things.

Some folks, such as QuietOneD, have also noticed that polished relief grinds can help with choppers (such as axes) where the sides are used to part said material (probably more important on splitting; less important on felling). Plus, more polished sides tends to mean smaller gouges/less places for stress to concentrate and cause the blade to fail.

Do I need an edge to look pretty? Not if it cuts what I want cut for my cutting enjoyment. Do I need an edge to look pretty when impressing other folks? Yep.

 

[kel_aa]

Now which one is more impressive?

What kind of question is that? From what has been said, it said nothing of the resulting sharpness. You can only make the "impressiveness" comparison if it resulted in the same sharpness, and then it depends on how much you value the appearance with respect to time/money spent.

Personally, if Mr Jeff Clark offered to take my AFCK down to 6 degrees, I would consider it, but probably say no thank you, because a) it'll alter ther look of the knife radically, and b) because I won't learn a darn thing from him doing it when I could do this myself and improve my technique. If Cliff offered using his speed method, I would say no thank you, for the same reasons, plus c) it'll be more scratched up (not necessarily more than my own re-profiling, just in comparsion to Mr Jeff Clark).

 

[thombrogan]

From what has been said, it said nothing of the resulting sharpness. You can only make the "impressiveness" comparison if it resulted in the same sharpness, and then it depends on how much you value the appearance with respect to time/money spent.

Someone whom you're trying to impress might not know/care how much time and or money you've spent. Many people are more impressed by cutting their own thumbs off with a glistening edge than with rough-hewn edge. Might sue you for less because of it, too.

 

[kel_aa]

Someone whom you're trying to impress might not know/care how much time and or money you've spent. Many people are more impressed by cutting their own thumbs off with a glistening edge than with rough-hewn edge. Might sue you for less because of it, too.

How do we defined impressed? As in meeting or exceeding their expectations? Are you more impressed that your A student daughter got A's this semester or are you more impressed that your D student daughter pulled herself to B range? In that case they might expect more from a glistening edge, and less from the rough-hewn edge, and therefore more impressed when it exceeds the sharpness they associate with a rough-hewn edge.

 

[thombrogan]

Very good point.

I think in Cliff's post, the folk's he's sharpening for know he can get the knives or other tools to do what they need done better than they can sharpen and he'll be quicker, too. But the line between deeply appreciated and impressed might be blurred in such cases.

For sharpening for shock and awe exhibitions, I still think looks are very important. A comparison would be to hobbyist vintners. Your wine may taste better than what your friends are used to drinking, but it'll go over better if served in wine glasses than if poured into Yahtzee tumblers or used peanut butter jars.

OTOH, going back to how AlvinJ sharpens and the results he gets, 195 proof alcohol is the sane no matter how you serve it...