Rannking of Sharpening Factors

[thombrogan]

And I prefer my showing off to involve inanimate objects, not loved ones.

 

[ghost squire]

This thread has gone insane.

 

[Phil Brown]

I know this only complicates things further, but here's my opinion:

The importance of appearance, I believe, has a lot to do with the type of knife. If we're talking about a custom showpiece, then details are very important. Even if the observer cannot distinguish what has been done to the blade, it simply "won't look right" with a scratched, dull finish. OTOH, you can make a machete look like it's been rolled off a cliff in a barrel full of broken glass; it'll only look wrong if it doesn't cut. So I think the type of instrument you're dealing with is the important factor here.

BTW, for wow factor, you'd probably want to choose the custom knife over the machete anyway.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

If we're talking about a custom showpiece, then details are very important. Even if the observer cannot distinguish what has been done to the blade, it simply "won't look right" with a scratched, dull finish.

Generally, but would you use such a knife to impress someone with regards to sharpness / cutting ability? Working customs get abraded and worn with use as do any knife. It doesn't take extreme materials, cardboard does it readily as do all used materials. Most of the carbon and low chrome tool steels will also rust readily if just used on some foods so working blades have a mottled and ragged appearance to them for years until that stabilizes. Personally I tend to value wear because it says the the owner actually used the knife. For every tradesmen I have ever known it was pretty easy to tell which tools they valued most with just a visual inspection.

As for impressive, consider Dozier's blades. I have used two and on both the edges were asymmetric (as are almost every other knife). However the K2 had one of the sharpest edges I have measured to date and combined a very low grit aggressive finish with a high push cutting ability due to minimal burr and high edge alignment. It actually forced me to rethink what you could accomplish with a really coarse finish. Anyone looking for a working knife would likely be impressed by the sharpness, cutting ability and edge retention. He has made a reputation on exactly those points similar with Spyderco who is known for very high initial sharpness. How many are known/promoted for even and symmetric bevels?
.

...because I won't learn a darn thing from him doing it when I could do this myself and improve my technique.

It gives you a reference point, I would find it useful to know what is the best someone else could achieve with the same steel/blade. Often times I am left wondering if this is really optimal especially when working with a new steel for the first time.

How do we defined impressed?

Pupil dilation?

... he can get the knives or other tools to do what they need done better than they can sharpen and he'll be quicker, too

A belt sander is a wonderful thing. The main reason people are impressed is how they cut due to the relief grinds. If you take a stock kitchen knife ground at 20 degrees per side with a 0.025" thick edge with a low sabre hollow grind and flatten than hollow right to the edge and hone at 10 degrees per side, not only will the knife actually cut many times better it will also respond much faster to v-rods and similar.

Back to impressing people, I carry multiple blades of multiple grits and profiles. This means I can easily handle fine precision push cutting, readily slice through stiff synthetics, and just as easily pry a rotted step apart, dig up some weeds, cut some saplings, or pull a substitute for a really blunt chef's knife while at a friends for dinner.

You want to impress someone who is struggling to peel some potatoes with a paring knife which would have trouble cutting butter, then give them a Krein hollow ground U2 ith a single digit degree primary edge honed to above shaving sharpness. Then put that away and pop out a Clark regound Military for utility slicing and dicing.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

The human eye can pick up slight flaws so well that even when something is off and you can't pin point it you still know something is off. To some this is more important than it is to others. To a guy like me if the knife works I'll use it and try to add that symetry it lacks later on at the next sharpening or the next or however long it takes. I tend to take a very conservative approach to removing steel needlessly, much the same way a dentist does in removing tooth structure before doing a filling on you. Once that steel is gone it ain't coming back so why take off more than is necessary to get it sharp? To me the symetrical look is not that important. Certainly not important enough to grind away good steel just to make my eyes feel better if the edge works but I realize I may be in the minority there.

For this reason I tend to stick to the factory lines as much as possible unless they are so far off that it is just not going to work which is very rare these days unless its some cheapy.

Instead of this ranking:

Burr formation
Accute bevel angle
Burr removal
Blade steel pedigree
Hold a constant angle
Progression from coarse to very fine abrasives and stropping
V-profile versus concave profile

I'd say:
1)hold a constant bevel angle as best as possible as most important
2)progression of stones or methods used as second
3)forming of a micro bevel as third
4)accuteness of the bevel angle
5)burr formation last in my mind as a matter of importance. Generally I don't see the need nor do to I want to form a burr on my knives when I sharpen. Some steels this is hard to avoid though. (Ok, technically I would say all sharpening forms a burr. I'm talking about the bold ones that stand out to the naked eye and the finger as described by Cliff. To me those are a negative and not something I want to see when sharpening so in a way as a matter of import, it could be ranked first in my list of what I don't want to see or cause.)

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

[large visible burr]

To me those are a negative and not something I want to see when sharpening ...

Generally not, they are useful for a novice as they let you know you have reached the edge, as moving from shaping to honing is one of the parts which is most difficult early on. Soon though sharpening tends to focus on minimization of burrs so you do things to prevent this build up. For example I will often do burr removal before an edge has been completely shaped, but this would be frustrating for a beginner for several reasons.

However regardless of techniques some steels are very problematic in this regard, especially the soft stainless. It isn't uncommon for me to have to try more than once to get a clean edge on them which isn't visibly burred. By this I don't mean a mm wide strip of metal that you get when filing sometimes, but a small edge bias you can see if you tilt the edge under light. It is readily visible as well under low magnification as a shadow.

Without this removed the sharpness will be fairly low as in less than half of optimal and the edge retention just a fraction, 1/10 or less. Removing this can be very difficult because it doesn't take much force to fold the edge but it can take a lot of abrasion to cut it due to the carbides so it is hard to make it cut without folding. Diamonds are really nice for this as they cut aggressively at low force.

-Cliff

 

[matt321]

Burr formation
Accute bevel angle
Burr removal
Blade steel pedigree
Hold a constant angle
Progression from coarse to very fine abrasives and stropping
V-profile versus concave profile

In my ranking I put the first two at the top because of an experience I had a few years back. I was in my father-in-laws shop looking for something to cut back an overgrown shrub in his front yard. I found a handmade knife made from a saw blade formed into the shape of a 18" machete with wood scales bolted on. It was dull so I took about 5 strokes down each side with a file. This left a very acute edge with a wicked burr that was clearly visible. Running my finger lightly down the edge I was shocked at how agressive and sharp it felt. It clicked for me that a lot of my sharpening difficulties resulted from worrying about steel pedigree, holding a constant angle, and progression to fine abrasives when in fact one can quickly produce an awsome edge by merely making sure that a burr is formed and that the bevil is acute.

It seems to me that most of the differences in opinons expressed in the above responses relate to the sophistication and esthetic preferences of the individual. I think my ranking is fine if the folks I'm trying to impress just run their thumb down the edge and are shocked how the blade pulls itself right in to the quick (ouch!).

 

[sodak]

With respect to aesthetics, the primary grind can also affect the edge symmetry. I am constantly thinning out the secondary bevel on some of my larger knives, and if the grind is off just a bit to one side or the other, then when I thin the edge, the "shiny part" will be wider on one side or the other. It is very rare that I have a knife with the primary grind exact right down the middle.

 

[STR]

When I was very young I showed one of my neighbors a folder I had sharpened. I was so proud of myself because I thought it was just super sharp. It did all the things right that a sharp knife is supposed to do. It shaved hair even though I did notice it only shaved if you went with it one way and on the correct arm, and it sliced paper real good and it felt like it was sharp to my finger. I grew up between two knife makers and this neighbor was one of those knife makers among other things. He took my folder from me as I handed it to him all smiles. He took a look at it and gave it back to me and informed me that all I had on it was a "false edge". I said what? He said it again and then said, 'you know, a wire edge. It only feels sharp but it won't last long and its not a true edge.' I had never heard either of those terms before and have never forgotten it.

Later as I was growing up I learned a lot from that old guy Ray. He died a few years later and I still have one knife he made me. Growing up with a knife maker on either side of you as a neighbor you can't help but learn a few things. Maybe that input I got that day is one of the reasons I hate a wire edge so much.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It is very rare that I have a knife with the primary grind exact right down the middle.

You can compensate for this by adding a shoulder relief to the short side to make it the same height if you like them to be the same height.

-Cliff

 

[db]

Both Dozier and Spyderco are known for their great grinds as well as sharpness. In fact the good-looking even grinds are what make them both so famous even more so than their sharpness. Dozier is a very good example that a coarse grind can also be a very good looking grind. I’m amazed that people can argue against a good-looking edge that is equally sharp as an ugly wavy uneven edge isn’t more impressive. I’m sorry but even common construction workers can value workmanship. The ones that think sloppy but works, is good enough aren’t the ones I want working for me. I’m not impressed with good enough.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Both Dozier and Spyderco are known for their great grinds as well as sharpness. In fact the good-looking even grinds are what make them both so famous even more so than their sharpness.

I have seen constant praise for Doziers intial sharpness and the edge retention, in contrast there is little commentary on how even or symmetrical the bevels run in comparison to other blades. In fact on the Agent I had the bevels were significantly uneven and I specifically asked Dozier about it and he responded in email that this was not unexpected as they are hand ground. None of the knives I have used (several hundred high end to date) have the bevels you would get from Ben Dale doing a reprofile on the Edge Pro for example as the vast majority are all sharpened freehand, usually on belts + buffers and thus the edge varies significantly in both thickness and angle from the choil to the tip.

I’m amazed that people can argue against a good-looking edge that is equally sharp as an ugly wavy uneven edge isn’t more impressive.

I'm amazed that is what you took from reading the above. The edge that I got from Clark was not what I would call ugly, wavy or uneven, but it was not as even as an edge I had regound by Ben Dale which was jig sharpened to a very exact edge tolerance whereas Clark did his reprofiling freehand on a belt sander and this is obvious if you look at it. It is also obvious that if you do sharpen as aggressively as Alvin does for example then it will marr the finish but yet no one I have showed his knives to were unimpressed after they cut with them, and every single one of them took them in a heart beat after comparing them to more "aesthetic" pleasing knives because they were looking for a cutting tool not something to look at and fondel for enjoyment.

I’m sorry but even common construction workers can value workmanship. The ones that think sloppy but works, is good enough aren’t the ones I want working for me.

Yes this is so true, I was recently giving a friend a hand because his sewage tank needed to be replaced and when I gave him the shovel I brought over he was not impressed with it at all. Even though the edge had been nicely filed and the handle sanded and linseed oiled, the actual blade of the shovel was full of scratch marks and the filed edge itself was not even from back to front. He went inside and finished polished the blade and evened out the grind and buffed it. I then realized I should not eat wild mushrooms without more careful selection.

-Cliff

 

[thombrogan]

I think one point we're dancing around here is that if these tools arrived from the factory in proper condition, the need to reprofile wouldn't occur for several sharpenings.

 

[db]

Your amazed that is what I took from your posts? Are you haveing a problem understanding this thread? You haven't heard or read about the great grinds on Doziers or Spydercos? Where have you been? Both Dozier and Spyderco are widely praised for there grinds. Cliff back pettle all you want I'm getting sick of you trying to talk out of both sides of an issue your now just argueing for the sake of argueing.

 

[cbwx34]

Dig up a sewage tank... buff a shovel. Dig up a sewage tank... buff a shovel. Hmmmmmmmmm.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I think one point we're dancing around here is that if these tools arrived from the factory in proper condition, the need to reprofile wouldn't occur for several sharpenings.

I think you can expect them to be sharp but the exact geometry has to suit the masses. Someone like Clark will always have to reprofile unless he sticks to knives like the Spyderco Calypso Jr. . But there are guys like Alvin who would regrind even that knife as long as you told him it wasn't stainless anyway. Generally I expect the edges to be sensible give the intended scope of work of the knife and I give a lot of leeway for thickening for protection from abuse especially on non-customs. But when Pat complains they don't cut well and I have to thin them out it really makes me question who they are being made for and what percentage of the population exists of that nature.

You haven't heard or read about the great grinds on Doziers or Spydercos?

No, I have rarely heard praise of how Dozier or Spyderco's bevels are outstandingly visually striking, the focus is on how sharp they are and the edge retention, especially for Dozier as it is augmented by the very coarse finish, similar for Boye and Wilson. Wilson hand sharpens from a zero-edge and you can notice this readily if you look at the knives as the edges will be uneven from side to side. I have not heard anyone complain about that though probably because the knives cut well, are comfortable in hand, stay sharp long, resharpen easily, etc. . I think they look nice as well but I also think Alvin's do as well.

-Cliff

 

[db]

Thom, I do agree most factory knives are ground way to thick. However, the only point I've tried to make, in this thread, is if someone wants to really impress his buddies with a sharpening job on a pocket knife, he should make it look as good as it cuts. I personally don't care what or how people sharpen a saw, shovel, or even there knives. My point is a good looking edge is more impressive than a ugly edge of the same sharpness. Looksmatter even Cliff has emailed Dozier about it even though he claims the looks of an edge doesn't matter to him. And yet he takes the time to specifically ask him about it. I tend to agree with Jeff Clark #1 is sharpness and #2 is looks but both are important.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...Cliff has emailed Dozier about it even though he claims the looks of an edge doesn't matter to him.

I email makers on a regular basis about lots of things which are of no importance to me such as initial sharpness, blade finish and so forth. I do this to confirm behavior when I note details in the review. Though it is amazing that you can cite this to argue your point and ignore the actual details which confirm the bevels are uneven. My Delica ZDP-189 has similar problems as there is no way to belt sand edges on a speed production line and get even visual bevels especially without a choil notch and on highly radical bevels like the Dodo. But yet inspite of this there are no wide spread complaints and almost uniform praise.

As for my "claim" that cosmetics don't matter to me, contending this this is the most nonsensical arguement you have made date. When I order custom knives I even specify that no finishing work is do be done. Most recently when I had Krein regrind the U2 I told him he didn't need to sharpen the blade after grinding nor do any polishing on the primary, just leave it in the as ground state. I have even told makers they don't need to coat the blades, just leave them with surface ground finishes. This is shot of my small Sebenza :

It actually has more cosmetic damage now as the blade is more scratched up and the edge more aggressively reprofiled. The edge also has three visible chips. One from rust, one from a nail contact and one from open a food can. the steel wears slowly so they will likely be there for months. They don't significantly effect the performance so I won't waste the steel to grind them out. In spite of all this it has not yet failed to impress one person who has ever USED it.

-Cliff

 

[db]

Talk about"nonsensical" your whole last post has nothing to do with good looking edges being more impressive than ugly ones,at the same sharpness, or anything to do with impressive sharpening. I could care less what you like or what you want. This thread is about impressive sharpening not about you Cliff.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...or anything to do with impressive sharpening.

Yes because by defination obviously sharpness has nothing to do with cutting ability and is a primary function of aesthetics. This is obvious because all the time that people talk about very sharp edges they always refer to the visual appearance. "That Dozier makes some impressively sharp knives, did you see how crisp the edge shoulder ran from the choil to the tip.". Of course no one says things like "Have you handled the new ZDP-189's Spyderco's, you can shave with them and never touch the skin." or "Do you want to see a really sharp knife, watch Murray Carter slice the ink off of newsprint.". Funny isn't in that in all the commentary on sharpness no one brings up how the edges actually look in those makers/manufacturers.

And yes, obviously this is just my personal viewpoint and makers like Jimmy Fikes who on video discusses at length about sharpness and what it means by cutting things and freehand sharpens one of his knives and specifically makes a note that he pays no attention to keeping a constant angle but just rocks the blade while he strokes it with the stone and thus works the very edge as well as the relief grind. But of course as you assert, this edge would not impress anyone unless someone cleaned it up so that there was a distinct and clear bevel and you buffed out all the scratches from the stone, and of course never used the knife so it showed no wear.

As noted, if you want to impress someone with sharpness, carry a multi-blade or multiple knives because sharpness isn't uniform, a knife which is optimally sharp for carving wood isn't for slicing poly. Grind the edge profile to the minmal cross section to prevent damage and match the grit to the task. This way the edge cuts very well and can do an extended amount of cutting. It likely isn't going to be very impressive if you do a few cuts and then the knife is dull. I was at a friends house awhile ago and he had a post in his backyard he needed to get rid of so I used a Ratweiler to cut the bottom off (concrete) and we chipped the rest. The knife went through the 4x4 easily, he wasn't a knife person so he was amazed it didn't break and when it cleanly sliced a piece of paper afterwards with almost no draw he was more than a little impressed.

-Cliff