Very good examples, I have knives from all 3 Dozier, Spyderco, and Carter. All three have very good-looking edges on them and they are sharp as well. Yup they are impressive because the edges are very sharp and look good too. I’m sure an ugly edge gets out from these makers every now and then and I’ll bet they hear about it every time. Just like you specifically asked Dozier about it even though you claim the looks don’t matter to you. I never said an ugly edge couldn’t be impressive, I am saying a good-looking edge is more impressive at the same sharpness. Is that really so hard for you to understand? No matter how many wild adventures you have, clearing lots, digging sewage tank, picking mushrooms, or cutting a post, the facts are looks do make a difference. I’m sure Jimmy Fikes and all the others you love to name-drop can speak for themselves. Even Jeff Clark in this very thread says the same thing, look at post 10. I’ve repeatedly said a good looking edge is more impressive than an ugly one, and you for some reason disagree. I think you like to argue just for the sake of argueing and it doesn’t really matter why. Matt321 wants to impress his buddies with his sharpening of a pocket knife. I don’t know his buddies but I think it’s safe to say they would be more impressed by a good looking edge at the same sharpness than a ugly one. An impressive sharpener not only can get a knife crazzy sharp but gets it looking good too.
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Rannking of Sharpening Factors
- Thread starter matt321
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1. Function
2. Form
I have flicked open my pocketknife on several occasions only to have someone ask to hold it. Usually I say: 'Be careful it's sharp'. One time an old timer said: 'I could see that from here, I just want to feel HOW SHARP!'
HE was impressed by the looks of it but wanted to put it to the real test.
Sort of like a pretty girl, she may look good but will she perform? Both are important to most. Do you want an ugly girl that REALLY loves you?
2. Form
I have flicked open my pocketknife on several occasions only to have someone ask to hold it. Usually I say: 'Be careful it's sharp'. One time an old timer said: 'I could see that from here, I just want to feel HOW SHARP!'
HE was impressed by the looks of it but wanted to put it to the real test.
Sort of like a pretty girl, she may look good but will she perform? Both are important to most. Do you want an ugly girl that REALLY loves you?
Cliff Stamp
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db said:
All of them are hand sharpened without jigs which is readily visible, and no, people don't complain about it, in fact they constantly praise the sharpness for its cutting ability and edge retention. As noted I have a Military which was reprofiled by Clark and you can tell it wasn't jig sharpened. In fact Benchmade was specifically known for very good looking edges, crisp and with a mirror polish, and people complained about them endlessly because they didn't actually cut well, hence Joe's post on the Axis. This was a well known issue on the forums several years ago and one of the focus points of the work done by Mike and Joe as it was a common example of a high end knife which didn't cut well do to how it was sharpened.
As noted, because I wanted confirmation on expected behavior, and as noted by Dozier this is the expected behavior because they are hand sharpened vs jig ground. But again ignore this and make up implications instead of actually dealing in facts.
Yes you would like to keep it to an interpersonal issue and ignore the reality just like you just did there again. How about you stop and actually deal with a contended point, think about how Fikes sharpened that blade. He even specifically mentions telling it to one of his customers and how impressed he was after using it. How about you go onto rec.knives and read about the knives Alvin has reground and sharpened and the responce he has recieved and look at the number of people who were impressed vs the number of people who complained about the aesthetics. How about you take a blade like Fikes did and go chopping with it for a few hours on random wood including dead fall which was on the ground. Now look at the primary grind and how it reacted to the debris. Now which stands out more to someone looking at the blade, a slight unevenness in the edge bevel or the obvious scratches and patina on the blade. Do you really think anyone using those knives is going to refinish the flats after every use, does this really make them no longer impressive to anyone who uses them. Would anyone even care after handling the blade at all?
As for Clark's post, yes, read it :
Jeff Clark said:
Ontopic to this thread aesthetics are inconsequential. Now if you want to talk about how to impress people with a knife in general, well currently there are a number of ways due to the demand for tacticals such as :
-saw teeth
-speed holes
-military connection
-wire cutters/bone scorers etc.
-use of fad steels/designs
and overly aggressive promotion.
The question was of ranking which by defination implies an uneveness and the ability to discriminate among the aspects based on relative importance which you are ignoring completely. Your statement is also founded on number of false presuppositions.
-Cliff
LOL Cliff you are too funny. Talk about being founded on number of false presuppositions.
Benchmade was widely criticized for having uneven ugly edges, not for having good-looking ones. In fact it was such a common criticism against them they changed how they sharpen their knives. Its funny you even bring that up since youve been saying in this thread no one even ever comments on the appearance of a edge. I think your the one making up your own facts not me.
Cliff says
All of them are hand sharpened without jigs which is readily visible, and no, people don't complain about it, in fact they constantly praise the sharpness
Are you implying a hand ground edge cant be a good looking one? I disagree with that assumption; an impressive sharpener gets both, the edge sharp and looking good.
Yes you would like to keep it to an interpersonal issue
I would? I havent gotten personal I think youre the one who has tried too. Try and keep some what on point if you can. The issue is impressive sharpening.
How about you go onto rec.knives and read about the knives
Ive been reading rec.knives for years, since 1991. I think youre the one ignoring the facts and questions in this thread not me.
The question was of ranking which by defination implies an uneveness and the ability to discriminate among the aspects based on relative importance
The question was
matt321says
When sharpening a pocket knife for the purposes of impressing my buddies Cool , I would rate the usual sharpening factors in the following order with the most important first and the least important last. What's your opinion?
Is anything missing?
That seems very clear to me and isnt implying anything.
Cliff you have convinced me!!! An ugly edge is more impressive than one that looks good at the same sharpness. Now if we can just convince pro sharpeners, knife manufactures, and their customers of that. If only most people could see the light.
Benchmade was widely criticized for having uneven ugly edges, not for having good-looking ones. In fact it was such a common criticism against them they changed how they sharpen their knives. Its funny you even bring that up since youve been saying in this thread no one even ever comments on the appearance of a edge. I think your the one making up your own facts not me.
Cliff says
All of them are hand sharpened without jigs which is readily visible, and no, people don't complain about it, in fact they constantly praise the sharpness
Are you implying a hand ground edge cant be a good looking one? I disagree with that assumption; an impressive sharpener gets both, the edge sharp and looking good.
Yes you would like to keep it to an interpersonal issue
I would? I havent gotten personal I think youre the one who has tried too. Try and keep some what on point if you can. The issue is impressive sharpening.
How about you go onto rec.knives and read about the knives
Ive been reading rec.knives for years, since 1991. I think youre the one ignoring the facts and questions in this thread not me.
The question was of ranking which by defination implies an uneveness and the ability to discriminate among the aspects based on relative importance
The question was
matt321says
When sharpening a pocket knife for the purposes of impressing my buddies Cool , I would rate the usual sharpening factors in the following order with the most important first and the least important last. What's your opinion?
Is anything missing?
That seems very clear to me and isnt implying anything.
Cliff you have convinced me!!! An ugly edge is more impressive than one that looks good at the same sharpness. Now if we can just convince pro sharpeners, knife manufactures, and their customers of that. If only most people could see the light.
I see you added to your post .
“
Cliff added..
As for Clark's post, yes, read it :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Clark
This topic was about ranking of how to sharpen knives to impress people. Using that metric, looks are pretty insignificant.
You are so predictable. I read the hole post not just 1 line in it. Try if you can to read the rest of the post. But it doesn't really matter anymore I'm with you, not Jeff, ugly is more impressive.
“
Cliff added..
As for Clark's post, yes, read it :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Clark
This topic was about ranking of how to sharpen knives to impress people. Using that metric, looks are pretty insignificant.
You are so predictable. I read the hole post not just 1 line in it. Try if you can to read the rest of the post. But it doesn't really matter anymore I'm with you, not Jeff, ugly is more impressive.
I'll illustrate the difference-
Interpersonal
Cliff: I like Folger's coffee better.
db: I like Starbuck's homebrew better.
Personal
Cliff: You're a deadbeat dad, so I have no respect for your coffee preference.
Db: You spent so many years drinking that crap when you worked at McDonald's, you wouldn't know good coffee if you pooped it.
Non-personal
Cliff: I believe Folger's is better because it uses beans grown on former rainforest ground, costs less because it employes child labour, and the machinery used to process the beans are more modern. The sales number at grocery stores show that the majority of people agree.
Db: While more people do buy Folger's for their home coffee makers, in a blind test they prefered Starbuck's by a 3 to 1 margin. Asked if they would switch, most said yes.
*There were a lot of presumptions in this thread, most probably false.
Interpersonal
Cliff: I like Folger's coffee better.
db: I like Starbuck's homebrew better.
Personal
Cliff: You're a deadbeat dad, so I have no respect for your coffee preference.
Db: You spent so many years drinking that crap when you worked at McDonald's, you wouldn't know good coffee if you pooped it.
Non-personal
Cliff: I believe Folger's is better because it uses beans grown on former rainforest ground, costs less because it employes child labour, and the machinery used to process the beans are more modern. The sales number at grocery stores show that the majority of people agree.
Db: While more people do buy Folger's for their home coffee makers, in a blind test they prefered Starbuck's by a 3 to 1 margin. Asked if they would switch, most said yes.
*There were a lot of presumptions in this thread, most probably false.
Cliff Stamp
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db said:
No what I said was then when people praise Dozier, Spyderco and similar for having an impressive edge they refer to the sharpness, cutting ability and edge retention and not the aesthetics of the bevels. Of course lots of people praise knives for aesthetic reasons or for simply looking "cool" in one way or another but this has nothing to do with how to sharpen a knife to impress someone. The Benchmade issue was an obvious one where a number of people complained about the performance of Benchmades and were not impressed in spite of the fact there were no aesthetic problems with the edges which was one of the major points of contention.
When you sharpen without a jig there will be variances in angle due to user variances, it isn't uncommon to measure a difference in angle along the edge as well as bevel thickness. This is especially true when the edges are sharpened in a production manner. Some knives are near impossible to get even bevels on due to the radical curvature which makes keeping the abrasive perpendicular extremely difficult. There are also various types of bevels which by their nature are always going to look bad when they are sharpened such as the zero ground bevels.
They already know db, no one promotes your line of reasoning. I have read many articles by people on how to sharpen knives Goddard, John Juranitch, Lee, etc., none of them focus on aesthetics when they talk about impressive sharpness. In fact Lee specifically notes methods which mangle the aesthetics of knife bevels in his book on sharpening.
You don't see Cold Steel saying "you will be impressed with our knives - they have the most even bevels of any production knife". I have never seen any maker say my edges are extremely impressive, the bevels are the exact same height. However it is very common for people to talk about the cutting ability of knives and be very impressed because of how the edges cut irrespective of how they look.
I have discussed sharpening with many makers who are known for impressive sharpness and cutting ability. Not once did any of them ever mention the importance of an getting the edge perfectly even in angle or width. It is very rare that they use jigs and they all realize the edges vary, especially through the tip and the choil. What they do focus on is how the edges cut, how long they stay sharp, how durable they are in use and how easy they are to resharpen.
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Matt321,
So to recap:
A thinned edge
Good burr removal
A level of polish appropriate for what's being cut (varies greatly with everyone)
A heated argument that spills onto two subforums.
Steel of an appropriate hardness and toughness for what's being cut
So to recap:
A thinned edge
Good burr removal
A level of polish appropriate for what's being cut (varies greatly with everyone)
A heated argument that spills onto two subforums.
Steel of an appropriate hardness and toughness for what's being cut
Again you don't need a jig or need a edge to be perfect to look good. So who are these many makers that you have talked to who are known for impressive sharpness and cutting ability that don't care how their edges look? Do all these makers have ugly edges on their knives? Do they sell them with crapy looking edges on them?
Again you ttry and spin the issues into something they aren't like the Benchmade one. Yes many many of the complaints were about how bad the edge grinds looked, more so than the sharpness. I'll try again a good looking edge is more impressive than a ugly one at the same sharpness. Also a hand ground edge can be just as good looking as it is sharp. An impressive sharpener can do this without the use of a jig. You don't have to have an ugly edge for it to cut better. Haveing both sharp and looking good is what is impressive.
Oh, thats right I forgot I agree with you now, ugly edges are the more impressive ones. Oooops
Thom I didn't want the other thread to turn but I should have known better. My mistake. I still think looks should be on the ranking but looking good or bad I'm not sure witch one it should be now.
Again you ttry and spin the issues into something they aren't like the Benchmade one. Yes many many of the complaints were about how bad the edge grinds looked, more so than the sharpness. I'll try again a good looking edge is more impressive than a ugly one at the same sharpness. Also a hand ground edge can be just as good looking as it is sharp. An impressive sharpener can do this without the use of a jig. You don't have to have an ugly edge for it to cut better. Haveing both sharp and looking good is what is impressive.
Oh, thats right I forgot I agree with you now, ugly edges are the more impressive ones. Oooops
Thom I didn't want the other thread to turn but I should have known better. My mistake. I still think looks should be on the ranking but looking good or bad I'm not sure witch one it should be now.
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If you really want to impress your buddies with your blade, there's really nothing to it. All you need to do is to convince their significant other to allow you to shave her legs with your knife while your buddy observes the procedure. When you've finished the shaving job... with nary a nick to the lady's legs... the buddy will be impressed no matter what steel the blade is made of, what the angle of the bevel is, how even the bevel has been put on, or anything else to do with the blade. I'd even be willing to lay odds that he'll offer to buy the knife, price no object. At least this has been my experience. 
Ginzu has no idea of how to make a REALLY interesting infomercial.
Oliver Oyl, the only begotten son of Popeye and Olive
Ginzu has no idea of how to make a REALLY interesting infomercial.
Oliver Oyl, the only begotten son of Popeye and Olive
Cliff Stamp
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thombrogan said:
Add mad skills with a knife. Read some of the cutting Fikes has done and try to duplicate that with any knife you own, the leather on tape cut is insane.
db said:
Without jigs edges have variances, both along the blade and from knife to knife. These are usually obvious by eye as I noted in the above and Hob noted in the parallel thread you started :
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=409132
Check the above for specific examples of makers and manufacturers who are praised for impressive edges but their symmetry isn't in any way impressive. Alvin is probably the most extreme combination of sharpness performance at the cost of aesthetics who is internet known however traditional makers/users who make/sharpen working knives are similar. Convex ground parangs for example look similar to Alvin's knives when sharpened as do typical Japanese cutlery which is flat lapped and not to a mirror polish.
Watch Fikes video and use the method he recommends for sharpening. Now take that knife he sharpens and see how many people are not impressed. I would actually be surprised if you could find one which wasn't. Read Lee's book and note how he recommends sharpening some knives. Now try that and see what the knife looks like. Use any knife to cut abrasive material and see if the aesthetics of the edge contrast significantly compared to the resulting degredation of the primary bevel. if the primary grind is full of scratches are you really going to notice that the edge bevel isn't exactly even.
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Was out golfing yesterday and while waiting at a tee box I showed the other guys a little cutting demo with my Mili - stand an empty water bottle on a fence rail and cut it in half with one swing. Afterwards they all inspected it and not one commented on the slightly uneven bevel or the one side of the tip that doesn't look just like the other. They all commented that it was sharp, though. I won't discount appearance, because many people want a pristine looking knife, but it is unrelated to how sharp a knife is.
I must say that the regulars on this forum and Jimmy Fike's posts have provided me a lot of guidance and inspiration to get 'em sharper.
Bruce
I must say that the regulars on this forum and Jimmy Fike's posts have provided me a lot of guidance and inspiration to get 'em sharper.
Bruce
Cliff Stamp
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It has been awhile since I did any bottle cutting, can you leave the bottom part on the fence after the cut? How did you finish the edge? Was it with the factory bevels?
What impresses me most about Fikes demonstration isn't as much what he achieves but the process is very natural and there are no jigs, guides, or magnifiers used.
-Cliff
What impresses me most about Fikes demonstration isn't as much what he achieves but the process is very natural and there are no jigs, guides, or magnifiers used.
-Cliff
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Cliff,
I have not been able to get the bottom part to stay on the surface - it cuts cleanly but both bottom and top sections end up on the ground. I think there is some deflection of the bottle that occurs before the cutting actually starts that throws the bottom section (?). Well, now I have something else to shoot for... It will slice through a phone book pretty easy with just a little rocking and only moderate pressure.
I thinned out the edge a bit, but the bevel is still less than .10" wide. I'd estimate I took it down to maybe 11-14 degrees. The bevel was finished with a 8000 King gold stone. A few light passes at the end at a slightly larger angle. I've touched it up since with a strop loaded with 1 micron diamond paste mixed with handamerican gel (makes the diamond paste a lot easier to apply evenly if I mix it with this). Light stropping only.
At some point I'd like to do some comparisons of different finishing on different steels - how does a stropped edge compare to King 8000 or shapton 15K - something like that. I've become convinced that heavy (ie. a lot) stropping works great on some knives/steels (infi & 52100 are some that come to mind), and is detrimental on some others (D2 I'm starting to think - I'm still trying to figure it out - there seems to be a lot of different opinions on how to finish it, but I have had no luck on it with heavy stropping).
Bruce
I have not been able to get the bottom part to stay on the surface - it cuts cleanly but both bottom and top sections end up on the ground. I think there is some deflection of the bottle that occurs before the cutting actually starts that throws the bottom section (?). Well, now I have something else to shoot for... It will slice through a phone book pretty easy with just a little rocking and only moderate pressure.
I thinned out the edge a bit, but the bevel is still less than .10" wide. I'd estimate I took it down to maybe 11-14 degrees. The bevel was finished with a 8000 King gold stone. A few light passes at the end at a slightly larger angle. I've touched it up since with a strop loaded with 1 micron diamond paste mixed with handamerican gel (makes the diamond paste a lot easier to apply evenly if I mix it with this). Light stropping only.
At some point I'd like to do some comparisons of different finishing on different steels - how does a stropped edge compare to King 8000 or shapton 15K - something like that. I've become convinced that heavy (ie. a lot) stropping works great on some knives/steels (infi & 52100 are some that come to mind), and is detrimental on some others (D2 I'm starting to think - I'm still trying to figure it out - there seems to be a lot of different opinions on how to finish it, but I have had no luck on it with heavy stropping).
Bruce
Cliff Stamp
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Broos said:
Neither have I. I sent some time trying to do it a few years back. I was using water in the bottle as a counter weight and reducing it as I worked on technique. This way you can measure your exact progress by the amount of water you need.
I'd like to read that if you ever do such comparisons as well as just the stone finishes. I don't have any of the finer waterstones and would be interested to see the effects on push/slicing from 4000/6000/8000/15000.
Yes, I have seen the same in heavy stropping. The behavior contrasts very different in S30V vs 52100 for example. On the steels with a high grindability the very fine stropping pastes can still remove metal very rapidly, on the high wear steels this doesn't seem to happen and instead the edge bends back and forth and breaks off. With 0.5 micron chroimum/aluminum oxide anyway, diamond or boron carbide may be different due to the more aggressive cutting action.
-Cliff
“
Jimmy Fikes Said…
If you really want to impress your buddies with your blade, there's really nothing to it. All you need to do is to convince their significant other to allow
you to shave her legs with your knife while your buddy observes the procedure. When you've finished the shaving job... with nary a nick to the lady's legs...
Jimmy my buddies would probably pound the snot out of me if I tried that. However, there is one or 2 that it would be worth trying it even though that would be the result.
I tried emailing you about your DVD. Not sure if you received it if not my email is dbtoe@hotmail.com
I’d be interested in it.
Jimmy Fikes Said…
If you really want to impress your buddies with your blade, there's really nothing to it. All you need to do is to convince their significant other to allow
you to shave her legs with your knife while your buddy observes the procedure. When you've finished the shaving job... with nary a nick to the lady's legs...
Jimmy my buddies would probably pound the snot out of me if I tried that. However, there is one or 2 that it would be worth trying it even though that would be the result.
I tried emailing you about your DVD. Not sure if you received it if not my email is dbtoe@hotmail.com
I’d be interested in it.
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db said:
I too would be very much interrested. Any information about how to buy this video would be appreciated.
JD
Cliff Stamp
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