Rant against private sellers

Starfish said:
silenthunterstudios, I'm not singling you out, just using your quote as an representative example...

I don't really understand this way of thinking, at least not here on the forums. Everyone seems to understand that in a trade, both parties ship at the same time (equal risk). However, during a cash transaction, why do some people feel that the seller takes more risk than the buyer? It is still a trade, after all...

As some others have noted on this thread - if you don't trust the buyer enough to send the money, why deal at all?

Matthew
Click to expand...

Yep.I agree.

Randy
 
Bigjim,

Interesting that you have had these experiences. Maybe asking when an item will ship is a good idea before you make payment, that way there are no misunderstandings.

It also helps to deal with people who have positive feedback on the forums. Most purchases I have made get same/next day shipping after payment has been made, and in many cases before (if a M.O. was used). On the sell side, I ship same/next business day.
 
I sold a knife a couple years ago and the buyer got upset because I didn't ship it the same day I received payment.
I sent an e-mail telling him I had shipped his knife on Monday and not the previous week and got a very snippy reply wanting to know why I hadn't sent it as soon as I had received his money,which is what I normally do.
I replied that my wife who was pregnant with our first child miscarried and we had spent the weekend with our families and the last thing I had on my mind was shipping his knife.
I know he had no idea what was going on but it still pissed me off. I like getting anything I order as quickly as possible and I always have any package I need to ship ready to send as soon as I get the money.
Sometimes things happen and sometimes people are just lazy or uncaring.
 
Sometimes things happen ...
Click to expand...

He knows what he's talking about.

A couple of years ago, I sent a money order to Pak 21 for what is still the most spectacular knife in my collection. The bad part was, the post office took forever and a day to get my money order to him. The good part was, he was a gentleman throughout, remaining patient until the envelope finally arrived.

Faith in our friends here can save a lot of unnecessary hard words.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
I understand not wanting to pack up a knife before the money arrives, but at least get the packaging together, have the label written out, and be ready to seal it all up and get it to the post office.
Click to expand...
I don't see the concern about packaging, the worst you have to do is redo the shipping label if the guy defaults and you have to sell it to someone else, and in this case the label isn't going to be the most irritating aspect. Plus how often is this happening anyway.

Yeah things can happen which delay shipping, but should the other guy pay for that? The last 2 out of 3 knives I sold I was delayed going to the post for 3-4 days becaue I was busy (there is no local post, so I have to drive to the next town). So when I did get there I payed a few more dollars and upgraded the shipping.

Just put yourself in the other guys position and see how you would respond.

-Cliff
 
Starfish said:
silenthunterstudios, I'm not singling you out, just using your quote as an representative example...

I don't really understand this way of thinking, at least not here on the forums. Everyone seems to understand that in a trade, both parties ship at the same time (equal risk). However, during a cash transaction, why do some people feel that the seller takes more risk than the buyer? It is still a trade, after all...

As some others have noted on this thread - if you don't trust the buyer enough to send the money, why deal at all?

Matthew
Click to expand...

The only reason I send the knife or whatever out the next day after the other party and I have agreed upon a trade, is because usually the PO is closed when I get out of work.

As for sales, if it is someone I have sold to before, I might send the package out before I receive payment, but usually I will wait for payment. Just seems like common sense to me, and I see no reason to defend myself. If the buyer has to have it NOW, then they can walk into a store and get it. Like I said, I usually ship the next day, and I use first class or Priority Mail. I'm here to have a good time and increase my collection, and help out some other knife/gadget nuts at the same time. I haven't had any complaints yet about waiting for a MO to come in.

Starfish, I sent you a PM, please explain in more detail your position. Maybe I just haven't been here long enough.
 
silenthunterstudios said:
The only reason I send the knife or whatever out the next day after the other party and I have agreed upon a trade, is because usually the PO is closed when I get out of work.

As for sales, if it is someone I have sold to before, I might send the package out before I receive payment, but usually I will wait for payment. Just seems like common sense to me, and I see no reason to defend myself. If the buyer has to have it NOW, then they can walk into a store and get it. Like I said, I usually ship the next day, and I use first class or Priority Mail. I'm here to have a good time and increase my collection, and help out some other knife/gadget nuts at the same time. I haven't had any complaints yet about waiting for a MO to come in.

Starfish, I sent you a PM, please explain in more detail your position. Maybe I just haven't been here long enough.
Click to expand...

Silenthunterstudios -

What is a "for sale" transaction but a trade between you and the buyer? He's trading his cash for your knife. In the case of a "knife for knife" trade, there seems to be no qualms about both parties shipping at the same time. Is your knife any less valuable to you in a "knife for knife" trade than in a "knife for cash" trade?

I'll admit that I used to do the same thing, until I realized that there is an equal amount of risk in both transactions. I know that it feels risky to send out a knife on the promise of payment being sent at the same time. However, look at it from the buyer's perspective: he or she is sending money out to someone he's never met except online, and trusting YOU to not take the money and run.

Use your intuition. Take a look at the person's feedback on GB&U, do a post search, read what this person writes. Read the e-mails. Ask for a phone number, and make a call. I made a phone call to a new member who wanted to buy an Umfaan from me with only 5 posts to his credit. I even agreed to send the knife to him and take 2 separate payments from him. That went off just fine.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it without hearing from you (or others) as to why you feel that a "knife for cash" transaction is different from a "knife for knife" transaction.

Thanks,

Matthew
 
How fast you ship does not matter. Shipping before you have the money is not a issue..... none of this is.

What matters is the communication. Setting expectations you can adhere to then doing it. Doing what you say. IF a seller says I will ship the knife as soon as I have your payment, I expect just that, SHIPPED AS SOON AS HE HAS MY PAYMENT. If I say I will ship the payment to you right away if you can sell it to me for xxx dollars, I will do what I have to do to have that payment to you the next day.

The big chunks of money and product that change hands here is serious business. It should be treated that way by everyone involved. Both Seller and Buyer.

The idea of exchange in abundance......exceeding the expectations of your trading partner pays back dividends over and over again.

I have recently purchased for or five knives from various members on this forum. Once we cyber-shook on it I had a express mailed Postal money order in thier hands the next day. We kept up a constaint e-mail chatter about each stage of the transaction. Nothing was omitted each party totally satisfied.

In the future I would tend to buy fom these sellers over others because I know they get it. I would be less likely to hammer on them for every cent of discount I could get because knowing I wont get put through hell is WORTH $$$ to me.

I would hope that they might consider taking my lower offer over a slightly higher one from a unknown buyer. The sellers knows that a transaction with me will be smooth as humanly possible. That has to be worth $$$ to anyone.
There are many on the board that feel this way about things I am sure.

But I know from personal observation that for instance:

Will YORK
Don Derkert ( Sniper308)

both members here conduct themselves in PERFECTLY in terms of comunication, fairness, honesty, and speed to transaction. As long as I remain interested in buying and selling nice knives I will always look favorably on them as prefered vendors for buying and selling.
 
I see where you're coming from Starfish, I do not think you are attacking me, but I believe a sale is different from a trade. My first trade was a little apprehensive, now I have no problem sending out the knife or whatever as soon as I can. I can understand that you see no difference between trades and sales, and I will mull this over as I trade and sell on this forum, I actually think you brought up a valid point. I do in fact send out sales before I receive payment from members I have either bought or sold with.

What have the members I bought from done in transactions with me? Have they waited until my money order was sent? From just memory, I believe that Anthony Cheeseboro was the only one who sent a package out before he received payment, but thats only because the package arrived to me so quickly :).

I don't want anyone to think I'm not sending until I receive payment as a negative viewpoint of anyones credibility. I would like to know if anyone I have sold to has an opinion on this matter.

Matthew, have you always sold this way? If not, what made you change your mind? Even though I am close to 3000 posts, I'm still a newbie in the Exchange.
 
silenthunterstudios said:
Matthew, have you always sold this way? If not, what made you change your mind? Even though I am close to 3000 posts, I'm still a newbie in the Exchange.
Click to expand...

silenthunterstudios,

No, I have not always sold this way. In particular, I can remember that when I was going through a financial rough patch, I did not send knives out before receiving the money (that I recall) - maybe I felt like I had more to lose at that time. However, I began to realize that I was really placing an unfair burden on the buyer to trust me more than I trusted the buyer. This realization was brought about in large part by listening to an online friend of mine, who is a _well-established_ member since the beginning, describe his frustration with people who would not ship to him at the same time that payment was sent. That's when I began to send knives the same day the deal was struck. Sometimes that means my knife went out before the MO.

In any case, I haven't been burned yet. I'm not a high-volume buyer or seller by any stretch, which has probably limited my exposure. However, both parties always have the chance to say no to a deal, for whatever reason. If something doesn't feel right, just say no and move on.

I haven't bought from you, but I have been the buyer who had to wait a few weeks for a knife. My feedback is that waiting is kind of annoying, and it does make me feel like I am viewed as the less trustworthy end of the transaction.

Hope that helps,

Matthew
 
I think bigjim makes a very good point here about expectations and communication. Some of us here work in professions where it is simply not possible for us to get to the PO on any given day we choose. For example, on days that I work (every day except one weekday and Sunday), I have to start work before the PO opens, I can't leave during the day or at lunch because I have to be on-hand, and I don't get out until after the PO closes. So, I can generally go to the post office only one day a week (my day off), and for right now at least, that day is Friday.

However, I will always try to let the buyer know this ahead of time (and this thread has let me know that I always need to do it before payment is sent), and I will say that I have never had a buyer be angry with me (at least not that I know of) or back out of a deal with me over my shipping schedule.

About the waiting-for-payment-before-sending out the knife debate, I am a buyer as well as a seller, and I do believe in the current standard that most private sellers and just about all dealers and knifemakers hold of waiting for payment before sending out the knife. The way I look at it is, as a buyer, I will always check out a seller's feedback before buying from them, unless I already know them, so I can know whether I trust them enough to deal with them. Sellers, on the other hand, cannot check out buyers as easily, as many that I've dealt with do not have feedback, are lurkers, or may not even be registered here.

It gives a seller an additional measure of security to wait for the payment. If the buyer flakes after the deal is agreed to, and I've had that happen before several times even with buyers who have a lot of positive feedback and good reputations, the buyer has nothing to lose. However, if the seller has already sent the knife at that point, the seller loses the shipping charges, plus they have to deal with the stress of wondering if they are ever getting their knife back. And, the seller has to wait longer before putting that knife back up for sale, too.

When I buy from someone else, it's always a nice bonus if they send out a knife to me before receiving my payment, and I will always greatly appreciate the gesture, but it's not my expectation for the seller to do that, and I generally only do as a seller if I know the buyer well.
 
commodorewheeler said:
The way I look at it is, as a buyer, I will always check out a seller's feedback before buying from them, unless I already know them, so I can know whether I trust them enough to deal with them. Sellers, on the other hand, cannot check out buyers as easily, as many that I've dealt with do not have feedback, are lurkers, or may not even be registered here.
Click to expand...

Hmm...so by your logic then, if you are buying from a relative new person here, then that person should send you the knife before you pay. Right?

Matthew
 
Cliff Stamp said:
None of that has anything to do with the points Jim made, yes we all have lives. His points were just use some common sense.
-Cliff
Click to expand...


Courtesy is nice, too.


Like,"treat me as you would like to be treated if you were in my shoes"




Thomas Zinn
 
Starfish said:
Hmm...so by your logic then, if you are buying from a relative new person here, then that person should send you the knife before you pay. Right?

Matthew
Click to expand...

Matthew, with a new seller with no feedback, I do ask for that, and nobody I have ever asked for this from has had a problem with it after I tell them to check my feedbacks on multiple forums. I suppose if a new seller ever said no to me on this request, I would simply not deal with them until they have established some feedback here or in another forum I am familiar with. I have been screwed multiple times in online transactions for not doing my homework on checking feedbacks and reputations in the past, so I have adopted a practice of caution.

With the amount of positive feedback that the more established traders have here, my experience has been that new sellers who are serious about completing a deal will understand that no established trader here will let his reputation go down the drain by screwing them over on a single deal. So, they have been willing to send the knife first to me. Some first-time sellers have even voluntarily offered to do this without my asking.

Matthew, I think our own experiences have helped shape our opinions on this subject matter as well. You said that you've never been burned. I, on the other hand, have been burned multiple times, though not since implementing my more cautious trading practices. I can say that before I was burned the first time, I probably would have shared your opinion. Also, as far as experiences shaping beliefs, I also had to send the first few knives I sold to reputable buyers before receiving payment (though I did offer them through private emails rather than posting them on forums), but I understood the reason why, I was fine with it, and I used the opportunities to amass some much-needed feedback.

For what it's worth, I can also say that I have never had a buyer (or first-time seller) complain to me or back out of a deal over my cautious trading practices, and it has never bothered me when an established seller asks me for payment first in spite of my feedbacks.

I do think you have a highly commendable attitude as a seller to want to help the buyer feel like he is assuming less risk than the norm. I guess I'm personally just not willing to take that risk anymore, though.
 
I've dealt with many folks on this forum, only twice have I ever felt let down but in the end they cleared themselves as this is a small community and word does get around quite fast.

As to shipping, I normally ship once a deal is struck, meaning we both understand that we're in agreement. For me it means that the person getting my knife has it all the sooner and I don't have that hanging over me to get it out in a rush the day the money/knife arrives, a more pleasant experience for both parties. :)

And people around here usually wait on me once they read that I just bought a knife :cool: because they know I'm most likely going to sell it shortly down the road to get something new, I've even had emails asking to be placed in line to buy certain knives once they read that I just bought it LOL, nice to be so well known?

I also agree with Starfish, $$ or $teel, you're trading one way or the other, in fact that is the ploy I tell my wife, oh...I traded for this knife, what she may not know or doesn't ask is 'what' I've traded, often it's $$ and not another knife :)

So unless you're out to make a buck selling knives here, which I usually lose a bit of money just to move on to another knife, then I am not sure of the problem in sending same time?

G2
 
LOL, Gary, I sometimes tell the same thing to my fiancee when I buy a knife. That it was acquired through a "trade".

Would you be willing to clarify one statement that you made above? I don't understand how wanting to wait for payment before sending out a knife constitutes being "out to make a buck" selling knives here. After all, you're still receiving the same amount of money from the buyer regardless of whether you send the knife out right away or wait until you have payment in hand, right? You're just giving yourself a lower probability of being taken.
 
commodorewheeler said:
LOL, Gary, I sometimes tell the same thing to my fiancee when I buy a knife. That it was acquired through a "trade".

Would you be willing to clarify one statement that you made above? I don't understand how wanting to wait for payment before sending out a knife constitutes being "out to make a buck" selling knives here. After all, you're still receiving the same amount of money from the buyer regardless of whether you send the knife out right away or wait until you have payment in hand, right? You're just giving yourself a lower probability of being taken.
Click to expand...

The meaning of that was directed at those who approach the selling of knives as a livelyhood and not in the interests of getting a new knife or selling those collecting dust, some have more than one of a particular knife, for what ever reason, and are looking in it for a profit, not everyone but some and those people tend to look at it more as a business? and in a business you get the money up front.

So when you're making a business of it, not a dealer type thing, it can be in their best interest to make sure they get their money first.

Me? I just love knives! :) My passion has waned in the last few months, or actually replaced by a previous passion of photography, so I had sold a slew of knives to help fund the new digital camera, boys and their toys eh?
The last time was for my surround system, that took a chunk to get going but it sounds great ;)
G2
 
I am not consistant in my policy though, as I have:
Waited for payment prior to shipping.
Shipped the same day we agreed to the deal.
Shipped at some point after that but before I received the money.
Shipped to someone who wanted my knife, but had job problems and wouldn't have the cash for a couple of months.

What I can say is that I enjoy the trust required in our little subculture. All I can lose in shipping something based on that trust is money or a knife, the person who would defraud me stands to lose much more.
 
I think the “common thread “ through these posts is COMMUNICATION IS THE KEY!

I’m more of a buyer then a seller and I’ve had no problems (so far). Everyone I’ve dealt with has come through as promised so I can’t complain. The few times I’ve sold knives. I’ve always shipped BEFORE I received payment. My job affords me the luxury of being able to get to the post office every day, if needed. so I don't have an excuse.

When I purchase a knife. I always send an email to let the seller know that “the money order is on its way”. I also ask them to let me know when it arrives.
I don’t go into the level of detail that “BigJim” does in his emails but to each there own.
Anyway. It was said before but I’ll reiterate. Our knife world IS a small world and word does get around pretty quickly if you “suck” as a seller or buyer.

It was also said by “miguet” that he’s “encountered more integrity on these forums than anyplace else in cyber world”. I agree whole hardly.

Take Care All.

Mark T.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top