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Eric - Correct me if I am wrong, but this set in your picture look to be the traditional style jigging, like the "prototype" on trial here, and not the rope cut jigging some of the blue knives I've seen.
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Eric - Correct me if I am wrong, but this set in your picture look to be the traditional style jigging, like the "prototype" on trial here, and not the rope cut jigging some of the blue knives I've seen.
Codger_64
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This is the first time I have heard of this. Ten "prototypes" of one pattern all stamped 000? I know they made "photosamples" stamped PS000, and prototypes stamped 000, sometimes also used for photosamples, and salesman's samples up to number 050 or so, but I never heard of ten "prototypes" all identically stamped 000. Not even pre-production samples.
Can you elaborate?
Michael
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Sorry for these bad photos but please see the zeros on the knives
These photos are from another friend who has hundreds of Schrade Prototypes with zero stamps.
The bottom knife is mine he has one exactly the same with the 3 zeros stamped on it. I expect there would be more of all of these out there perhaps as many as 10 with 3 zeros and same knife as with others also in pics.
Here below is an email from my friend I mentioned in other post re (prototypes) this was a reply from him regarding an email I sent him with a photo of the knife in bottom pic (notice the zeros). I sent him the email because I was surprised that a friend (friend re above 100s of Schrade protos) had a knife exactly the same as this with the same 3 zeros on it. Here was the reply as follows:
HELLO TIM,
THIS IS NOT THAT UNUSUAL. LET ME EXPLAIN HOW PROTOTYPES WERE USED.
FIRST THE DESIGNERS WOULD HAVE A MASTER CUTLER MAKE ONE KNIFE SO HE COULD PRESENT IT TO WALTER GARDNER FOR HIS INSPECTION. IF IT PASSED THAT TEST THEN THEY WOULD MAKE ENOUGH (SOMETIMES AS MANY AS 10 TO PRESENT TO THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS FOR THEIR INSPECTION. THEY WOULD THEN VOTE TO SEE IF THE KNIFE SHOULD GO INTO PRODUCTION. EACH PROTOTYPE KNIFE HAD THE ZEROS ON THEM AND THEY WERE ALL HELD BY THE COMPANY IN THERE STASH.
NOW YOU SEE, YOU LEARNED SOMETHING NEW AGAIN TODAY.
HOPE THAT EVERYONE IS DOING WELL !!!!
MAY GOD BLESS ,
P.S. ALL OF THESE KNIVES WERE FOUND AFTER SCHRADE WENT OUT OF BUSINESS. EACH AND EVERYONE OF
THESE KNIVES WERE ACQUIRED BY SMOKY MOUNTAIN & BLUE RIDGE KNIVES AND HAVE SINCE BEEN SOLD
TO DEALERS. "
These photos are from another friend who has hundreds of Schrade Prototypes with zero stamps.
The bottom knife is mine he has one exactly the same with the 3 zeros stamped on it. I expect there would be more of all of these out there perhaps as many as 10 with 3 zeros and same knife as with others also in pics.
Here below is an email from my friend I mentioned in other post re (prototypes) this was a reply from him regarding an email I sent him with a photo of the knife in bottom pic (notice the zeros). I sent him the email because I was surprised that a friend (friend re above 100s of Schrade protos) had a knife exactly the same as this with the same 3 zeros on it. Here was the reply as follows:
HELLO TIM,
THIS IS NOT THAT UNUSUAL. LET ME EXPLAIN HOW PROTOTYPES WERE USED.
FIRST THE DESIGNERS WOULD HAVE A MASTER CUTLER MAKE ONE KNIFE SO HE COULD PRESENT IT TO WALTER GARDNER FOR HIS INSPECTION. IF IT PASSED THAT TEST THEN THEY WOULD MAKE ENOUGH (SOMETIMES AS MANY AS 10 TO PRESENT TO THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS FOR THEIR INSPECTION. THEY WOULD THEN VOTE TO SEE IF THE KNIFE SHOULD GO INTO PRODUCTION. EACH PROTOTYPE KNIFE HAD THE ZEROS ON THEM AND THEY WERE ALL HELD BY THE COMPANY IN THERE STASH.
NOW YOU SEE, YOU LEARNED SOMETHING NEW AGAIN TODAY.
HOPE THAT EVERYONE IS DOING WELL !!!!
MAY GOD BLESS ,
P.S. ALL OF THESE KNIVES WERE FOUND AFTER SCHRADE WENT OUT OF BUSINESS. EACH AND EVERYONE OF
THESE KNIVES WERE ACQUIRED BY SMOKY MOUNTAIN & BLUE RIDGE KNIVES AND HAVE SINCE BEEN SOLD
TO DEALERS. "
ea42
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Thawk, yes, those are the regular jigged knives. As far as I know the rope jigged knives were never intended for a display, but rather were to be individually sold in the authentic cigar boxes that the Cigar Box Classics were sold in, only the boxes made additional reference to the 100th anniversary. I've seen the flyer, but never the actual boxes. It seems only the knives remain.
Eric
Eric
Codger_64
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I don't recall internal memos referring to "prototypes" very often. As you can see in this case, one pre-production Photo Sample was required (and then a set of Salesman's Samples). This would have been after Creative Services (John Duffy and Kelly Dunton) had produced an approved artwork and it had been sent out to make the hotstamp die. Hotstamp dies were not cheap and I would wager that they were not made before the design and issue had been approved as would be the case if a knife were a "prototype", a one-off, one-of-a-kind. Tom Giorgianni recently showed us a true prototype of one of his father's scrimshaws. It was hand scrimmed, and the actual design details were changed before the production die was made. As he stated, changes were made to improve the reproduction and presentation. A knife of this design with sample markings would be made after final artwork approval, after the issue had been approved, before the photoshoot for the flyer copy, before salesman samples were made.
DIstribution of the sheets shown above was made to the various department heads. I don't find copies sent to the board of directors, though they could have been without stating such. Most of the time, "prototypes", or more correctly "mockups" were done cut-and-paste fashion by creative services.
Michael
PS- Beware of too many knives appearing with "000" stamped on the bolsters!
I'm afraid the really rare ones are now the knives appearing on Ebay without 000. Am I the only one game to tell the Emperor he has no clothes?
Michael, Dare I ask you your opinion please on the possibility of one of Santas little helpers out there in EbayLand actually putting 000 on knife bolsters. They are not even consistantly formed 000's with different fonts in use. Again has any flyer been seen with any number disclosed other than 000?
P.S. I still believe in Santa too. Hoo Roo
Michael, Dare I ask you your opinion please on the possibility of one of Santas little helpers out there in EbayLand actually putting 000 on knife bolsters. They are not even consistantly formed 000's with different fonts in use. Again has any flyer been seen with any number disclosed other than 000?
P.S. I still believe in Santa too. Hoo Roo
Following on from above discussion a quick search of Schrade 000 reveals a Schrade Bowie made for Smith and Wessen with no tang stamp or markings however it does have 000 on crossguard so referring to above that knife with 000 would have been sent for confirmation even though many had been produced and had the 000 even though it was never going to be a photographic example because Smith and Wessen hadnt weaved their magic on it at that stage so really little reason for 000 on that knife? particularly in a spot that no other Schrades were remotely numbered?
An Aussie Ebayer got lucky with no less than five 000 numbered NIB Schrades currently being offered with 2 being exactly the same 897UH's.. ..all new in boxes with bling.
My 50th Anniversary of Wallkill State Prison Scrim Barlow numbered 000 one would think it would not have to go to Mr Gardiner and the board for checking with such small production run...so I dont believe we will ever know conclusively if there was a SINGLE use for 000 may have been many..... including Santas little helpers. Hoo Roo
An Aussie Ebayer got lucky with no less than five 000 numbered NIB Schrades currently being offered with 2 being exactly the same 897UH's.. ..all new in boxes with bling.
My 50th Anniversary of Wallkill State Prison Scrim Barlow numbered 000 one would think it would not have to go to Mr Gardiner and the board for checking with such small production run...so I dont believe we will ever know conclusively if there was a SINGLE use for 000 may have been many..... including Santas little helpers. Hoo Roo
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I really appreciate your comments & info Michael and Larry but I do trust my source of info on this.
What Michael says regarding scrimshaw knives not having the expensive dies made until after production approval does make sence.
Larry I think I know the knife you a refferring too and It may actually not be a true 000 prototype as I have inside information that in that particular case there were some doupts raised regarding the zero stamp on it "re Schrade workers with a little too much time on there hands".
This is the only exception of I know of and what is obvious is the inconsistency of the marking on that particular knife.
Please let me clarify I dont know if zero stamped knives were used "exclusively" on only prototypes but I dont have any doupt that they were used on prototypes. Many other designations may have been used as well. I have tried to collect one example of each.
I agree that there doesnt seem to have been a consistent rule applied uniformely by Schrade but totally reject the supposition that becuase a number of identical knives appear with the same zero stamp that one or some of them must be fraudulent.
In summary if a series of knives were numbered in sequence and one of the same series was found to be fraudulently numbered with 000 then the original serial number would have to be removed to place the new zeros on the knife, grinding off the material to place a 000 marked would likely exposed it immediately as a fraud, alternately finding a blank unmarked LB7 with no stamp so that one could stamp it with zeros would be an excersize in futility if all in that series were marked with serial numbers. In this case either the blank non numbered knife or a zero marked knife would be very unique perhaps not always a prototype but regardless still unique.
If some of the zero stamped knives by Schrade were not prototypes then they marked them like this for some other reason that still makes them of significant interest to collectors and different from the rest.
Regards Tim
What Michael says regarding scrimshaw knives not having the expensive dies made until after production approval does make sence.
Larry I think I know the knife you a refferring too and It may actually not be a true 000 prototype as I have inside information that in that particular case there were some doupts raised regarding the zero stamp on it "re Schrade workers with a little too much time on there hands".
This is the only exception of I know of and what is obvious is the inconsistency of the marking on that particular knife.
Please let me clarify I dont know if zero stamped knives were used "exclusively" on only prototypes but I dont have any doupt that they were used on prototypes. Many other designations may have been used as well. I have tried to collect one example of each.
I agree that there doesnt seem to have been a consistent rule applied uniformely by Schrade but totally reject the supposition that becuase a number of identical knives appear with the same zero stamp that one or some of them must be fraudulent.
In summary if a series of knives were numbered in sequence and one of the same series was found to be fraudulently numbered with 000 then the original serial number would have to be removed to place the new zeros on the knife, grinding off the material to place a 000 marked would likely exposed it immediately as a fraud, alternately finding a blank unmarked LB7 with no stamp so that one could stamp it with zeros would be an excersize in futility if all in that series were marked with serial numbers. In this case either the blank non numbered knife or a zero marked knife would be very unique perhaps not always a prototype but regardless still unique.
If some of the zero stamped knives by Schrade were not prototypes then they marked them like this for some other reason that still makes them of significant interest to collectors and different from the rest.
Regards Tim
Codger_64
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Unfortunately, knives with faked stampings are, and will continue to be of interest to collectors. Who among us has not seen the price differential realized on eBay between a non-serialed overrun knife and one claimed to be a "prototype"? Just look at the subject listing. Some collectors snap these up like popcorn and pay way over the going market value for them. Yes, they are usually accompanied by a convincing story and often by a certificate of some type from SMKW or BRK, given blank to the dealers for them to fill in. And yes, there are people who will take five minutes to "tap-tap-tap" in hopes of doubling or tripling their selling price on a mutt knife.
In the past four years we've seen everything from rejects to setup pieces advertised as "prototypes". Practically everything a dealer bought in those boxes but couldn't explain has been labeled as "rare" and "valuable". Search eBay right now with this text string: (rare, proto, prototype, sample)+Schrade .
No doubt quite a few samples were included in the truckloads of knives carted off from Ellenville after the October, 2004 auction (seventeen tractor trailers? I forget). And a large number of oddities were created by the few employees kept on from July through October by order of the receiver to inflate the WIP inventory by assembling anything that could be fitted together into a finished knife.
Just remember to read the knife, not the seller's story. Even if the seller is a friend.
Michael
In the past four years we've seen everything from rejects to setup pieces advertised as "prototypes". Practically everything a dealer bought in those boxes but couldn't explain has been labeled as "rare" and "valuable". Search eBay right now with this text string: (rare, proto, prototype, sample)+Schrade .
No doubt quite a few samples were included in the truckloads of knives carted off from Ellenville after the October, 2004 auction (seventeen tractor trailers? I forget). And a large number of oddities were created by the few employees kept on from July through October by order of the receiver to inflate the WIP inventory by assembling anything that could be fitted together into a finished knife.
Just remember to read the knife, not the seller's story. Even if the seller is a friend.
Michael
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Im sure that is correct BUT I have not even seen one example of this actually occurring yet, the only example I have seen of this being the case is the one example I gave with photos of the knife Larry mentioned above with photos of it on this forum some time ago and in this case it was very easy to see that there was something wrong with the stamp on it even afterwards and also in the sellers current listing.
I have seen you point out errors very clearly when COAs have been clearly incorrect and an unumbered blue handled 165 prototype which was rare but was definitely not a prototype and others there are too many to mention here. But I have not yet seen one instance where anyone has shown that a zero stamp on a knife was false or fraudulent or does not truly belong on a particular knife.
I admit I dont read every post if I am missing something here could someone please tell me??
If I recal the original question I attempted answer was did Schrade mark their prototypes with zeros, the answer is yes, but not always.
Did Schrade mark identical dublicate knives with the same zero numbers
Answer
Yes but not always.
Did Schrade have any concrete rules in the way they numbered these knives with zeros, no they did not.
At least so far no one has been able to show that they did but only that they did not, so where is there objection coming from?
Regards Tim
You should have been a lawyer Tim with all those suppositions....I reckon you could get a death sentence halved ...from 22000 volts to 11000 volts!!
Wouldn't it be great if a former employee would give clarity to the use of 000. I realize some collectors have paid substantial monies for these markings and would wish to protect their investments. They have never meant anything to me as a collector as I have always concentrated on as many different Schrade varieties as I can find rather than the pecularities.
These links to other forums who operate under different rules to this Schrade forum can be a possible minefield for the person directing I believe.Hoo Roo
Wouldn't it be great if a former employee would give clarity to the use of 000. I realize some collectors have paid substantial monies for these markings and would wish to protect their investments. They have never meant anything to me as a collector as I have always concentrated on as many different Schrade varieties as I can find rather than the pecularities.
These links to other forums who operate under different rules to this Schrade forum can be a possible minefield for the person directing I believe.Hoo Roo
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Heres is an example of a knife that appears to be a prototype or perhaps a sample of some kind (notice numbers on bolster).
From the BC stamp (thanks Irv) it can be seen that it was intended to be a Bear Cult (BC) Scrimshaw knife and yet it was still marked with S0001 before any scrimshaw work was done to it.
Perhaps they did this to examine the texture and finish of the handle before applying any artwork as the bear cult series had a distinctly different feel and appearance to the normal delrin used in an LB7 handle.
From the BC stamp (thanks Irv) it can be seen that it was intended to be a Bear Cult (BC) Scrimshaw knife and yet it was still marked with S0001 before any scrimshaw work was done to it.
Perhaps they did this to examine the texture and finish of the handle before applying any artwork as the bear cult series had a distinctly different feel and appearance to the normal delrin used in an LB7 handle.
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Yes me included and this thread seemed to start with a few people bagging many 000 stamped knives as fraudulent without too much to base it on at all. I am simply trusting the word of a friend with the info for this he is someone I know to be realible, honest & experienced in Schrades.
Am I missing something here?
what we HAVE is the existence of MANY knives stamped 000 or variations such as the S0001 shown above. these markings look professionally done as one would expect if it were done in the Schrade factory. they do not look like "home brew". this is fact.
tim asks "am i missing something here", referring i believe to when the zero stamping was applied. my answer is YES: incontrovertible evidence; in place of circumstantial evidence.
some may think there is adequate circumstantial evidence to say that these zeros are Schrade applied; others may think(myself included) that there is still room for doubt in many of these knives which have appeared post 2004. roland
tim asks "am i missing something here", referring i believe to when the zero stamping was applied. my answer is YES: incontrovertible evidence; in place of circumstantial evidence.
some may think there is adequate circumstantial evidence to say that these zeros are Schrade applied; others may think(myself included) that there is still room for doubt in many of these knives which have appeared post 2004. roland
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This has been a very intresting thead
. I for one am new enough to stay clear of any things that are not fully, and at this point easily understood! Now that being said I may and probably have passed up some things I sould have acquired but my money is ON the sure things at this point AND don't flame me because I know I know nothing is sure except 2 things and 1still has ?'s DEATH does not!
These are the theads that really shead light on newer collectors:thumbup: don't quit yet.
. I for one am new enough to stay clear of any things that are not fully, and at this point easily understood! Now that being said I may and probably have passed up some things I sould have acquired but my money is ON the sure things at this point AND don't flame me because I know I know nothing is sure except 2 things and 1still has ?'s DEATH does not! These are the theads that really shead light on newer collectors:thumbup: don't quit yet.
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I don't think the knives with 000 or 0000 are frauds, but in most cases, the Schrade prototypes I see on Ebay... I consider them leftovers. (some of the sellers I would consider fraudulant). I don't have any interest in them just because of the number, and would not pay more because of it. I'm not taking sides on anything, because every contributor in this thread has made some very valid educated points.
Hal, i agree with you and am not trying to "take sides" (not that you implied i was). and this is a very good thread because all of us have seen many Schrade knives with zeroes listed on ebay.
i think all Schrade collectors would like to KNOW 2 things:
1) were all these stamped at the Schrade factory ?
2) if so, then why were so many stamped this way ?
one idea i have is that Schrade employees were "having fun" when instructed to assemble together all parts into knives. "hey joe, when i'm finished with these 50 knives here, ya wanna borrow the 000 stamp for awhile ?"
however, i have NO facts to back up this (silly?) idea, so it should not be repeated !
roland
i think all Schrade collectors would like to KNOW 2 things:
1) were all these stamped at the Schrade factory ?
2) if so, then why were so many stamped this way ?
one idea i have is that Schrade employees were "having fun" when instructed to assemble together all parts into knives. "hey joe, when i'm finished with these 50 knives here, ya wanna borrow the 000 stamp for awhile ?"
however, i have NO facts to back up this (silly?) idea, so it should not be repeated !
roland
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I don't think anyone is taking sides, and it's always OK when someone does. Personally at this point, the word "prototype" in a knife description means nothing to me. I think this discussion will help anyone considering the purchase of a knife with whatever serial number is on it, make a better judgment of value or collectability.
And yes Roland, anything goes in an "end of days" scenario.
Personally I would rather have a 000 or 0001 knife of a desirable released issue/pattern than a one of a kind, with a big story and no known history. Would I still like to have one of the 0000 Blue Bone Stockman or the matched set the Aussie has? You bet. But if I was going to spend that money, I'd much rather have a set of five 1954 Schrade Walden knives with bone handles.
And yes Roland, anything goes in an "end of days" scenario.
Personally I would rather have a 000 or 0001 knife of a desirable released issue/pattern than a one of a kind, with a big story and no known history. Would I still like to have one of the 0000 Blue Bone Stockman or the matched set the Aussie has? You bet. But if I was going to spend that money, I'd much rather have a set of five 1954 Schrade Walden knives with bone handles.
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Michael
The email advise I got from my friend on this (as I posted on top of page) was not the seller of the knife in fact I have never purchased a zero stamped knife from him, so he had no vested interest in telling me this.
I ask him about almost every knife I purchase before I buy it. I asked him about my ducks 000 LB7 becuase I saw a duplicate knife in a friends ebay feedback and was as surprised as many on this forum would have been. I was quite happy with the answer he gave on it though.
No one can say that the answer he gave was definitely incorrect, I didnt think the email you gave on how scrimshaws were done above was to imply that he was wrong just that the same rules did not always apply consistently here which is well known especially in the way Schrade applied this type of marking to these knives, I posted a link about this inconsistency of marking but was advised to remove it.
Larry
Larry there was a former employee of the Schrade factory who visited this web site some time ago in a thread he stated that 0000 knives were a real find or highly sought after? I think that was in refference to a knife prefigured with PS then zeros, not sure. I cant search for the thread as I dont have sufficient user rights.
Probably smart a decision but I like a little mystery.