"Rare" Schrade BIN $749.99

Michael ... No one can say that the answer he gave was definitely incorrect, I didnt think the email you gave on how scrimshaws were done above was to imply that he was wrong just that the same rules did not always apply consistently here which is well known especially in the way Schrade applied this type of marking to these knives, I posted a link about this inconsistency of marking but was advised to remove it....

What email? You mean the excerpted scans of the original factory production preparation sheets? Would you like to see a sample order form? It does not say prototype. That is an eBay hype term.
 
What email? You mean the excerpted scans of the original factory production preparation sheets? Would you like to see a sample order form? It does not say prototype. That is an eBay hype term.

Yes please Michael, yes I didnt mean email I meant the post sorry for confusion.

Prototype does not have to be singular when it is then it is often called "the original prototype" at least this is how I use the term. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Let me know.
Regards Tim
 
This is a sample request for the National Park Service Anniversary knife. It calls for three "0000" samples, all the same except for different Fibron handle materials.

2vdmds0.jpg


A seperate request from the same date calls for two samples, one with natural stag handle and one with burnt stag.

All of these were to be marked "0000", but only one sample of each variety.
 
Michael
Perhaps the word prototype is thrown around too much, sample is fine with me.

If I had that paperwork above in my hand along with the 0000 knife that it mentions I would have payed up to 2.5 times as much for it if I was confident it was from a good source (actually only if it was an LB7). Thats the appeal for me, it is a risk for the unwary as its likely there are some fakes out there.

Thanks Again
Tim
 
That's the thing to look for; the sample knives that were made with materials that were not adopted into the final production. As far as I know only the oak was accepted out of the above handle materials, along with the natural stag and the scrimmed pattern. I wonder if they were completed knives, with the shields, etches etc in place, or if they were simply 5OT's with different handles, in which case they wouldn't be too difficult to mimic. Of course, if any of the above mentioned cc'd folks were to hand it to me, I'd probably take it for the real thing;):D Great info Codger, and very interesting topic.

Eric
 
I guess it reasonable to say that even now due to Schrades closure and the release of many of these to dealers that there are likely to be many more geniune ones available out there than there are fakes.

Of course this is definitely supposition on my part and it could change at any point so that the reverse is true.

I havent purchased a Schrade prototype (correction sample) off US ebay for over 12 months and I really would not want to be buying them now.

Regards Tim
 
Codger, thank you for your great detective work. i certainly accept that as proof that Schrade did produce pre-production samples with zeroes stamped on them.
so why 4 zeroes here ? because the knives would be serialized to 4 digits so they wanted to show how they would look when stamped ? perhaps the person responsible on the NPS end might see it and ask for smaller font, or some other minor change ? otherwise, why not just put 1 zero on the samples ? yes this is minutia, but i'm interested in as thorough understanding as possible. roland
 
so why 4 zeroes here ? because the knives would be serialized to 4 digits so they wanted to show how they would look when stamped

Roland
Thats a good question and one that I asked myself although this knife confused that a little. I could not work out if they had planned 10,000 with this one or 19,999. Ive seen same on ebay but they didnt appear to have any number at all. Curious??

Copy3ofCopyofIMG_2571-1.jpg
 
I guess my 1959 3OT would have to be regarded as a true prototype within the context it perhaps should be used. Herman Williams said recently on BF no more than half dozen made and never made it to production yet they proceeded with the clip blade 2OT identical except for the sheepfoot of the 3OT. No 000 numbers in those days just the model Number so 000 must be a more recent occurance, which I still believe is more related to photo samples. I have a substantial Schrade Flyer Collection and a quick look through has just revealed the IXL large Stockman issued about 1979 clearly has 0001 on bolster as do other IXL's on subsequent flyers.The Sun Dance and Bear Cult Scrims clearly have 0000. Statue of Liberty Special Edition Flyer clearly has 0000 in 1986.Eagle has Landed in 1989 has 0001. 85th Anniversary Whittler Flyer clearly has 0000.
Just when I thought I was on a roll the Cover of Short Line 1988 has large LB7 photo with traditional number starting with XB etc. All interesting but by no means conclusive.
Hoo Roo
 
Herman Williams said recently on BF no more than half dozen made and never made it to production yet they proceeded with the clip blade 2OT identical except for the sheepfoot of the 3OT. No 000 numbers in those days just the model Number

Id rather have an knife without the zeros and a good story behind it like the one you mentioned above. A rare knife with a story and a history behind it is the best find of all !!
Regards Tim
 
Larry, those old flyers sure are helpful.
0000 seems to me to be of a different "category" to 0001. in a production of 1000 serialized knives, 0001 through to 1000 are all to be sold. but surely 0000 was intended as photo specimen and then retention as Schrade Co. property ?
so what i take from all the great replies here, is that Schrade did make photo samples with zeroes on them. but as for the blue handled ones as originally posted, there seem to be too many with zeroes for all to be valid photo samples . (?) roland
 
......but as for the blue handled ones as originally posted, there seem to be too many with zeroes for all to be valid photo samples . (?) roland

Zactly. And no doubt we will see more in that and other patterns. Who done it? Who knows. But we have all seen lunchbox knives, errors and setup pieces declared to be prototypes complete with certificate.

Maybe they did have a reason for making a dozen double-naught blue bones. I gave about $40 for mine without serialization, and I am fine with that. Made for Lowes? Made for Europe? Dunno. Only former employees know for sure and at this point, they aren't talking. At least not here.

Michael

PS- As an illustration, an old story from the Arkansas Territorial Legislature goes thus: While traveling from Tejas to the East to take care of business, James Bowie whittled a facimile of a knife design he wanted made and left it with James Black, residing at Washington Post in Southwest Arkansas Territory (He is often touted as a frontier blacksmith, but actually was trained in silversmithing and metalurgy in Philidelphia.). This facimile of a knife was not a prototype, but rather a mockup or model. Black worked with Bowie's design and when he returned on his way back to Tejas, presented Bowie with two slightly different sample knives. Bowie chose one of them for his own knife and went on his way into history. Those first two were prototypes and the one retained by black became his sample for making more. Black made an unknown number of additional knives based upon the prototypes of Bowie's knife which was based upon Bowie's own mockup. Anyone inquiring of Black about "Bowie's knife" might be shown the remaining prototype example as a sample of the pattern and his work. One example was given to a member of the legislature and passed down thru his family with "some written provenance".

The story is interesting but yet to be conclusively proven. But it does illustrate the difference in the terms.
 
Thanks Michael
Heres another interesting story and although this is not Schrades (although he did work on Schrades) it demonstrates how easy it is to buy a knife with a set of assumptions and be wrong. I nearly purchased the third knife (which was the 2nd one made in the series) shown here in the photo it but it was not engraved by Aurum etchings as the others were.

Here is the email from Samuel Shortes the founder of Aurum etchings regarding it.

51fe_1.jpg


Over the years, we did a lot of engraving for S & W and sometimes it is difficult to keep every project straight – particularly when it was 30 years ago.

I did, however, go back at look at my paperwork on the second knife and found something that I had momentarily forgotten about. Now, however, I remember it well.

Aurum didn’t actually do the 2nd knife although we did the ones after that as well as pistols. It is an interesting story.

The first knife was directly initiated by Blackie Collins at S&W. It didn’t go through their regular purchasing department because it was a new things for them. It was received by the public well and got rave reviews.

For the second knife in the series, it was initiated through their regular purchasing department by the people whose job it is to beat-up on suppliers for the cheapest price. We got a formal request for the second job on the theme of “deer in a forest.” They ask us first for the art and a cost for the job.

I sketched it out and gave it to one of our artist to do the final camera-ready drawing. We sent the final drawing and a per unit cost for etching back to S & W. They said that the art was ok (approved) but the cost of etching was too high. I though this was odd because it was the same as the first job and it was certainly fair. They, of course, had no idea what was involved or if it was reasonable. This was a new experience for them. Nothing happened for several months until we got a call saying if we could do 100 of them at the price we quoted. This was strange because the initial order was larger than that. They said that it was all they needed. I smelled a rat.

Well, they finally came clean. A young purchasing agent had taken my art which still belonged to Aurum, and then sent it out to a dozen or so people who assured them they could do it although none of them had. Ever. The accepted one companies bid [at about ½ my price]. It was an immediate disaster and they destroyed about ½ of the knives the tried to process and the remaining were horrible in quality. S & W finally shut them down but tried to use the poor quality ones they had not destroyed ----because there dealers were beating on them for the second project.

I was more outraged that they stole my art than the fact we didn’t get the job. The young purchase dealer claimed he didn’t know I still owned it. They send me examples of the ones they had accepted and shipped and requested that I make the remaining blades match. I reused because I didn’t want to be associated with the first group of knives floating around on the market. They looked horrible. They were very shallow and had poor detail. They couldn’t control the process. They went back to the first guy and let him finished and promised me the next job if I would not sue them over the artwork. I accepted that because I wanted to have a good relationship with them.

So, the second is of poor quality. I am not really sure how to value it.
 
Tim, what a good post. v. impressive that you were able to go right to the source and learn the real facts about your S&W knife.
now, if only we could find a reliable, knowlegeable Schrade employee to email our questions to, we might find that some of our widely held assumptions have more "story" to them than we know. roland
 
Back
Top