Real Loveless? Food for Thought!

Kevin Jones

Kevin Jones

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Oct 28, 2006
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Kohai999 said:
Personally, I don't think like you and Coop seem to about the "REAL" Loveless knives. I think that they are all "REAL", and Jim Merritt is making them about as good as they have ever been right now. Lovett makes knives very close, but they are not the "same". Only ONE shop has produced the REAL Loveless knives, and that they are continuing to do. Food for thought.

STeven Garsson
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So "REAL" Loveless knives are made by Jim Merritt in the Loveless Shop?
OK, so if Mike Lovett makes a Lovett in the Loveless Shop is that still a Lovett or a Loveless? If Jim Merritt makes a Loveless in the Lovett Shop is that a Lovett, Loveless or Merritt? :confused: ;)

I think the subject brought up by Coop and STeven is interesting enough to perhaps continue but have it's own thread, rather than sidetracking the very good Exploding Knife Market thread.

Kinda kidding above ;) to lighten up for a serious discussion. However, I would like to direct a question to the knowledgeable Loveless and Loveless style collectors. And of course makers please chime in.
And I hope no one thinks I'm trying to belittle or disrespect Mr. Loveless or the Loveless Shop in any way. Just interested and courious.

Obviously, there are about half dozen (or more) makers currently making VERY GOOD Loveless style knives. I have closely examined knives by several of them and been fortunate enough to handle Loveless knives.

I don't notice obvious differences between them examining them separately. Never had the opportunity to examine several together, but doubt that I could identify each by maker if five or so like examples were in front of me.

So my question is; how many of you could identify like knives from the top five or so Loveless style knife makers? Are there obvious differences between each? What are some? Obviously, the first giveaway, for a less skilled maker are the grinds, however I find the grinds very close between the top few.

I feel I could pick original Fisk, Dunn, Dean or Hancock knives out of a line-up including copies (for lack of a better word).
 
I think that the "REAL" Loveless issue is a matter of whether, or not the provenance and or makings on the knife establish that it was created by Bob Loveless himself, and by himself alone. This something that is relatively easy to establish. Historically works of art that can be determined to have been made solely by the master's hand, are more valuable and desirable than works attributed to him and his studio.
 
ptgdvc said:
I think that the "REAL" Loveless issue is a matter of whether, or not the provenance and or makings on the knife establish that it was created by Bob Loveless himself, and by himself alone. This something that is relatively easy to establish. Historically works of art that can be determined to have been made solely by the master's hand, are more valuable and desirable than works attributed to him and his studio.
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Peter, I'm only addressing examining and identifying each piece by maker based solely on the knife’s merit (fit/finish, grinds, execution etc.) if none were marked. Setting aside value, the Loveless name etc.
 
Does this mean that the Loveless knives I seen sell for over a thousand bucks are not done by Mr. Loveless himself??
 
Kevin Jones said:
Peter, I'm addressing examining and identifying each piece by maker based solely on the knife’s merit (fit/finish, grinds, execution etc.) if none were marked.
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Well if we are discussing pure merit, Dietmar Kressler's work is easily identifiable and objectively the best to my untrained eye and ignorant mind. Of course I do not profess any expertise whatsoever, regarding stock removal knives. Now that I have kicked the hornet's nest, I will moving on. :foot:
 
ptgdvc said:
Well if we are discussing pure merit, Dietmar Kressler's work is easily identifiable and objectively the best to my untrained eye and ignorant mind. Of course I do not profess any expertise whatsoever, regarding stock removal knives. Now that I have kicked the hornet's nest, I will moving on. :foot:
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You absolutely answered your own statement....easily identifiable...yes!

As to the rest, keep to your area of expertise, newb!!;):grumpy: :D :grumpy: ;)

Bob Loveless has had "partners" in his work... for decades...S.R. Johnson for a number of years, Richard Barney...Kuzan Oda...., now Jim Merritt.

When Loveless made everything himself, the lines were there, but the fit/finish was clearly lacking. Bob told me personally that he is a knife designer first, a maker second.

The grinds, fit, and finish of a Loveless knife is unique to that maker. When you examine the best of the best(Kressler, Johnson, Herron, the Japanese makers....) each has a slightly different style. Loveless knives are so deeply hollow ground that Bob has actually gone through the other side on occasion. The grind follows the belly of the knife; there are very few "straight" grinds on a Loveless knife. The handle shaping is unique, but well copied......

The current product coming from the Loveless shop is the best that it has ever been in terms of steel, fit, finish and attention to detail, very heady stuff indeed. If these things matter to you(they matter to me) that is where the value is.

Lovett does his own thing, it will not be Loveless. Loveless works with Merritt, and that is the way it will be until Bob retires.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
In the initial 'Exploding Market' thread I only mentioned that the Loveless market is exploding in sales costs. I make no remarks of authenticity.

I don't think there will be any impact outside of this spirited discussion regarding the value of Loveless or Loveless/***** knives.

Are they custom or handmade.....? ;) :p :D Same topical deal.

Coop
 
Thanks STeven good point and information. :thumbup:

I'm with Peter, in that I know less about stock removal knives then I do folders :confused:
Perhaps both of us will get educated here. ;)
 
Kohai999 said:
When Loveless made everything himself, the lines were there, but the fit/finish was clearly lacking. Bob told me personally that he is a knife designer first, a maker second.

STeven Garsson
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Obiwan,

Please forgive you humble student, BUT It almost does not matter if the thing is a rusty old file with an edge, if the provenance can establish that it was sole authorship of the master's hand. It will be worth more in the long run, because it is more than a knife, it is also a historical artifact that is simply irreplacable.

Your servant,

Vader
 
I posted this in the other thread, but maybe it bears restating. Certain knives take on a life force of their own. Loveless, Randall and Ruana spring to mind. They are, and apparently have been for a long time ( I was unaware that Loveless was until very recently) handmade but collaborative efforts. The collectors of these knives do not care.......and in the case of Randall, they are arguably in some ways, totally independent set of the knife collector market. I would wager that MANY, and maybe the majority of Randall collectors don't collect any other custom or handmade knives. On the other hand, nobody is going to pay Moran prices for one of the blades that they guys bought at the estate auction and finished. There is no such thing as a "collaborative" Moran other than the select few special projects like the ABS board knives, etc.
 
ptgdvc said:
Obiwan,

Please forgive you humble student, BUT It almost does not matter if the thing is a rusty old file with an edge, if the provenance can establish that it was sole authorship of the master's hand. It will be worth more in the long run, because it is more than a knife, it is also a historical artifact that is simply irreplacable.

Your servant,

Vader
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Ahhh, Lord Vader, your point is made, but is Kevin interested in the history, or the best knife?

I cannot abide by those antiques that have great history, but show it. I like new and shiny, and THAT I will pay top dollar for, over rusty, pitted antiquity.

I am not sure that a sole authorship Loveless will fetch more than an unmarked Loveless-Johnson(which would be history in it's own case, there are less than 100 MARKED Loveless-Johnson knives)but would defer to those like Dave Ellis to chime in. He knows much, much more about that subject than I.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Here's a picture of my Riverside Loveless fighter 6 1/2" blade with macassar ebony # 211. It feels like a real Loveless when I hold it. Jim Treacy

MyLovelessFighter.jpg
 
jjtjr said:
Here's a picture of my Riverside Loveless fighter 6 1/2" blade with macassar ebony # 211. It feels like a real Loveless when I hold it. Jim Treacy

MyLovelessFighter.jpg
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sweet!!!!!!!!!:D
 
Would I pay more for a Loveless knife made by Bob Loveless? If I had the money, and could convince Bob to make me a knife, the answer is yes. Even if the knife wasn't made to the level of fit & finish that Jim can do. However, I would be happy to get one that was made by any of his partners.

The two makers of Loveless style knives that are I am the most interested in, besides Loveless knives themselves, are Lovett and Young. Their knives are still available for reasonable prices (though they are going up), and the quality is top tier.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
The two makers of Loveless style knives that are I am the most interested in, besides Loveless knives themselves, are Lovett and Young. Their knives are still available for reasonable prices (though they are going up), and the quality is top tier.
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Lovett has a backlog of 3-5 years.

Young has a backlog of at least 3 years.

FYI.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
So back to my original queston, "are there experts amoung us who feel they could consistently identify the Loveless, Lovett's, Browns, Kressler's, Merritt's and Takahashi's if like unmarked examples were presented in a group"? :confused:
 
sorry for this short hijacking.
Joe, on the Moran colab. There is one other that I know of. Bill and I did a hunting knife together and stamped it as such. I talked with the owner last week, the knife will be on market one of these days after he passes.
 
When Kressler makes a "Kressler", I can tell it's a Kressler. When Dietmar or someone else TRIES to make it "Loveless", I sure can't tell, but I haven't seen a vast number of Lovelesses. If anyone can tell on sight, it would be a person who's seen hundreds of Lovelesses over the years. If Dave Ellis, or Denton or Dave Harvey can't tell, then probably no-one can. If these guys CAN tell, they probably can't tell you why. So far, from what I've handled, I can tell a blade from Tony Bose apart from one of Reese's blades. I love the way Tony's blades flow and my eye picks up on it, but I can't point to specifics.



Pete
 
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