Real Loveless? Food for Thought!

fisk said:
sorry for this short hijacking.
Joe, on the Moran colab. There is one other that I know of. Bill and I did a hunting knife together and stamped it as such. I talked with the owner last week, the knife will be on market one of these days after he passes.
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Hi Jerry.
That's got to be a VERY special piece to say the least. A fitting residence for it would be E. Third Street in downtown Arkansas.

Is the hunter in the traditional Moran style or does it have more Fisk influence?
 
Your question is a good one and will bring up many interesting points. Here's my 2 cents..... The Loveless shop is really not very different from a lot of shops, especially keeping in mind the time period that these shops originated. Loveless had Steve Johnson making knives when Steve was a very young man. They cranked out a LOT of knives. They flew to Japan together, loaded with knives to sell. They were in the business of making and selling knives and really didn't care by whose hand, as long as the finished product met their standards. In the early 70's it really wasn't the "provenance" aspect the mattered as much as the actual workmanship, design and styling of Loveless knives, beginning with the droppoint hunter. Lile has been mentioned in this discussion. Believe it or not, Jimmy Lile did not make all Lile (no dot) knives when he was alive. He had employees making buttonlocks for a long time. I know this and have had conversations with these men. This is how shops normally functioned at the time. Phill Hartsfield has recently come under some criticism due to the fact that his son is now making the knives and the logo is the same. The way I see it, that's normal for a "shop". The registered logo is for the BUSINESS, not for the man.

Another factor here with trying to seperate out knives made by a certain maker's hand and place extra value on those knives, is that you STILL don't really know. Even makers who claim to be "1 man shops" have been known to let someone else grind out a blade. WWG, I'm sure you can think of a few. Point is, you can generalize and assign extra value to knives from a certain era within a maker's career, such as a "Lawndale" Loveless. In the case of Lile, pre and post mortem. To try to assign value by looking at it and saying, "yep, Bob made this one"......is pretty unlikely.
 
Each of the Loveless style makers has their own style, though some try to be more faithful to the originals than others do. If all the top Loveless style makers were to make a knife that was exactly to the original pattern, I would have a very difficult time identifying which one made which knife. If however, each maker was to make the knife in their own developed style, I think I would be able to match the maker to the knife.
 
Bob Loveless has never hidden the fact that he share's his Shop. A Loveless from the Loveless Shop is a Loveless.
Do I think that early pieces entirely made by the Masters hands will be more valuable in the long run...probably.
I buy and sell plenty of Loveless Knive's, I buy and sell a few of the Loveless style Maker's Knive's but of course deal them as made by the actual Maker.
Can I tell a Loveless Shop made Knife strictly by feel? Usually,most makers have not grasped the subtleties found in a Loveless Handle, some are pretty darned close but they are still not Loveless Knive's.
Just my 2 cents
Dave
 
Ellis said:
Bob Loveless has never hidden the fact that he share's his Shop. A Loveless from the Loveless Shop is a Loveless.
Do I think that early pieces entirely made by the Masters hands will be more valuable in the long run...probably.
I buy and sell plenty of Loveless Knive's, I buy and sell a few of the Loveless style Maker's Knive's but of course deal them as made by the actual Maker.
Can I tell a Loveless Shop made Knife strictly by feel? Usually,most makers have not grasped the subtleties found in a Loveless Handle, some are pretty darned close but they are still not Loveless Knive's.
Just my 2 cents
Dave
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And your 2 cents greatly appreciated.

I was thinking more in the line of fit & finish, grinds and such, but you make a great point.
It's more in that an expert can most likely feel the deference in handle contour, weight, balance etc. in at lease separating the Loveless for the rest of the pack. I missed that aspect of it.:foot:
 
Kevin Jones said:
Hi Jerry.
That's got to be a VERY special piece to say the least. A fitting residence for it would be E. Third Street in downtown Arkansas.

Is the hunter in the traditional Moran style or does it have more Fisk influence?
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Hey Jerry.....he did that hawk collaboration with Barney Barnes too, but things like that are still as scarce as hen's teeth. I suspect ones like that from you are also few and far between, although there will be a couple of more this year what with the board knife and the boobie prize on the horizon :D
 
Kevin Jones said:
I was thinking more in the line of fit & finish, grinds and such, but you make a great point.
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I have heard that it is hard to get the same hollow grind as a Loveless because Bob does not use a standard size grinding wheel. He has them specially made for him.
 
Kevin, to answer your question, I have been trying to get Jim to Come home for a couple of years now. ( He is from Here originally). If Jim should want to make a knife in my shop, It would be a Merritt. Unless he just ground it out to help me out, and left it to the Lovett shop(Me), to finish out, and Logo. I ground out a DP Hunter a few weeks ago in the Loveless shop. It came home with me. It will be a Lovett. If for what ever reason, I had stayed there, and we finished it there. I don't know. Loveless-Lovett? Sounds good to me. Steve is right on so many points. For one, my knives a not exact copies. Contrary t popular belief I can do so. I choose not to. One very big reason is the Counterfeiting going on. I want to never be associated with such a thing. I can get so close, that the master himself, mistakenly picked up a Lovett Big Bear at The AKI year before last, and showed all the nuances to a customer. All the while never realizing that it was a Lovett, rather than a Loveless. That is plenty close enough for me folks Keith, you are partially correct on the wheel thing. Part of this is that Bob learned to use wheels on the old Square wheel for things that they were never intended for. For instance grinding blades on the little 2.5" wheel at the bottom of the flat platen Assembly. Hard to do. But makes for a very dramatic grind. It gave me fits back in the mid 70's. Jody Samson was another maker who mastered it. It is old hat to me now. The Loveless shop uses certain durometer to get grinds and finishes, as do I. The biggie is the way Bob likes to have the wheel shaped. I was having a little trouble in this area. I have the technique of shaping the contact wheel down now. and yes, I can see a difference. That, and just to make sure, I have Loveless wheels here in the shop! Never hurts to hedge your bett! What is really shocking to me is the acceptance with top collectors around the world. The last time I went out to the Loveless Shop, there were several high end collectors. If I told you who they were, you would be shocked as well. Why? Because when they finished ordering from Bob and Jim, they urned around and ask. Lovett, can you please make these same knives for us? I was blown away. imagine me getting orders right there in the Loveless shop, form Top Loveless Collectors. Just this week we received orders form Customers sent to us by Bob Loveless. You can't imagine what an honor this is. And Humbling. There is a reason I am telling you all this. I talk to top collectors, and dealers of Loveless knives weekly. And I can tell you that the Value is going Up and Up! And It doesn't make a hoot whether Bob did all the work, or Jim did a lot of it. Not in the least. The people really in the know, and the movers, and shakers in the Loveless world got over this question decades ago. So this post is "YEARS" out dated. Unless you are talking about old Delaware maids, this discussion is dead in the minds of the serious collectors. Bob has had partners in the past, and has a partner now. The part missed by most here is Partner! There have been helpers in the past. (One at a time) , not a semi factory like many out there! They would sweep the floor. Make Coffee, Stitch sheaths from time to time. So machine set up. may be even band-saw a blade blank out of a piece of steel. Not make knives. A couple gave it a shot. Some worked out better than others! But real partners. SR Johnson and Jim Merritt are it! Are Johnson make Loveless Knives, or knives marked Loveless-Johnson worth less. Not hardly! Many try to say that Steve was there only a year. Others almost 2 years. Well it was closer to 4. And good years they were too. For all of us. Just look where Steve is today. If not for the Accident, he may have been with Bob to this day. Now to Jim Merritt. Jim is not just a worker, but a full partner. In other words, Bob Loveless, and Jim Merritt "ARE LOVELESS KNIVES". and have been for a quarter century. If this was going to effect the Loveless market, it would have done so a lot of years ago. But to each his own. It isn't the Loveless Shop raising the Prices thru the roof, it is the dealers, and collectors. And guess what. They know exactly who is in the shop. I know where I am investing my money! Hope I haven't ticked off too many good folks here. Well may-be one. But I'm sure he will try to get even by discouraging folks from collecting Lovett's Just as he does Loveless's! Can't win them all. Now where is my violin? Loving the thread. Very thought provoking! Mike
 
One thought. (sorry for the long winded speech)! You really can't compare the workings of the Art world with the Loveless thing. Although one could argue that Bob Loveless is an Artist, the Artist are creating Art for Arts sake. This has never been the case with Bob Loveless. Bob's only desire was to create extremely usable tools. They have become collectible to almost a cult following degree. In wanting to create tools that would serve the sportsman to the ultimate degree, he wanted to get them out the door to the end user. The collecting and unreal prices mystify Bob as much as the rest of us. He will be the first to tell you that he makes a very good 300.Dropped Point Knife. But he can sell it for 1800. Then the dealers get up to 5800. for the same Knife. ( IN Stag) 4500+ in Micarta. None of us really know what is driving the market. For what it is worth, there is going to be a Loveless collector discussion at Blade on Saturday this year. I would love to sneak in and hear what they have to say! Mike
 
Well Mike, there's not much for me to say about your post except a big thank you.

And I wouldn't worry about ticking anyone off, as your post has most likely won over skeptics of the Loveless pneumonia. But sorry for putting you in a precarious position here.

As far as Mr. Loveless not being an artist, I afraid he doesn't have a vote in that, as the art knife/art buying public will decide that. I'm sure there are currently "art buyer/investors" out there buying Loveless knives that know little more about them than which end is sharp.

You have answered my and others questions, even though I admit to asking specific questions here hoping to get answers to others. ;) I always say why wonder, when you can ask? The worst that can happen is, you may not get an answer or someone may think you are an IDIOT for asking. I’m afraid the latter has probably happened to me often. :D

And in spite of my signature line, I have been aggressively trying to acquire a Loveless stag chute that I can afford for some time now. :foot:
 
I just talked to Bob Loveless a few minutes ago, and told him about this thread. He got a real kick out of it! Wish he has a computer. Mike
 
ptgdvc said:
Obiwan,

Please forgive you humble student, BUT It almost does not matter if the thing is a rusty old file with an edge, if the provenance can establish that it was sole authorship of the master's hand. It will be worth more in the long run, because it is more than a knife, it is also a historical artifact that is simply irreplacable.

Your servant,

Vader
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I am sorry to have to disagree with so many of my friend, BUT, ANY knife made in the Loveless shop, by Bob, a partner or an emplyee is a LOVELESS and it's value takes off from a base established by the Loveless mark. Where these knives are concerned sole authorship is a crock. The most valuable hunters from the Loveless shop are the 37 knives marked Loveless-Johnson, next are the sole authorship Delaware Maid and least are the sole authorship crudities Bob was swaping for guns and cameras in the late 1960s.

Quality is what matters!

A. G.

Sorry, I responded before reading the entire thresd, I see that this has already been covered.
 
Bob is old, and he doesn't do computers. He doesn't get out much anymore, either, David.

Lovett sees him/talks to him frequently.

Best Regards,

Steven Garsson



2knife said:
It is a shame that He, himself (Bob Loveless) cannot participate in these discussions. It would be a wealth of information, a treasury.. just to hear responses in his own words to the many discussions/questions that fuel these threads. It would be our honor to hear him, as I have never met him. Probably never will. Bob, if you're out there.. Can we hear you?
David
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Well I am fortunate enough to own 5 Loveless knives. Nothing special, as anything other that the three drop point hunters,the utility or the semi skinner I have, are way out of my league such as a Wilderness, or Fighter etc. I have three loveless style drop point hunters made by W.C. Davis. In comparing the two side by side I cannot tell them apart except the logo on the blade. I have several Kressler knives, John Young, Steve Johnson, Ricardo Velarde and Maseo Takahashi but none in the same style as my Loveless knives to compare with. Just my 2 pennies worth.
Jim
 
JCMiller said:
Well I am fortunate enough to own 5 Loveless knives. Nothing special, as anything other that the three drop point hunters,the utility or the semi skinner I have, are way out of my league such as a Wilderness, or Fighter etc. I have three loveless style drop point hunters made by W.C. Davis. In comparing the two side by side I cannot tell them apart except the logo on the blade. I have several Kressler knives, John Young, Steve Johnson, Ricardo Velarde and Maseo Takahashi but none in the same style as my Loveless knives to compare with. Just my 2 pennies worth.
Jim
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So back to my original question in starting this thread; there doesn't seem to be many if any who could really tell the difference if presented unmarked. Even amoung experts who have commented here. :confused:
 
Hey Kevin! Glad to See this one back. Yes! I can tell the difference. There are a few doing a great job. Romano is coming along. Charles Vestal is doing a great job. As is rob Brown. The Young's are more leaning to the SR. Johnson look and feel. Which is different by Steve's design. Did I mention that Lovett's are kinda close. In all fairness to Steve Carson, Hey Steve!- I've been out to the Loveless shop a few times since Steve has seen a Loved-Loveless Connection Piece. They are a whole lot closer today than a year ago. A few things really different about the Loveless besides the deep grinds. (which mine have as well) are the subtleties to the grip contour. Where the palm swell is placed. It is missed the most by the others. The sweep into the guard. Both on the tang, and the contour blending from the spine area of the tang to the sides of the grip and palm swell. Depth of the concave contour extending from the palm swell to the butt. The thickness to the tang. The contour of the little finger area of the lower tang and the blending going up the side of the grip to the flared grip, and the gentle curve from the bottom of the tang and the top of the tang. It changes at different locations of the handle. Especially the bottom of the grip to the center. There is also a huge difference between Lawn dale and Riverside contours. With parts of the grip being thicker on the Riverside and some what less exaggerated than the Lawndale. I am very torn between the two. You Will find that the Lawndales are generally slimmer in profile, especially the fighters, than the Riverside ones as well. One large difference is the top of the grip is less rounded and blended on the Riverside examples. I really like a good Lawndale Fighter! The blades were as Steven noted, more deeply ground as well. I like making both. I guess I can't really make up my mind. I'm like you are about the Loveless knives in regards to the ABS knives. I can't really tell who made what until I read the name. Lots of great work out there, just very similar. I left out what to me is the most important thing regarding these features. Each and every one of them are there for a reason. Not just to look different. But for very good reasons. This is where most miss the mark. It is hard enough to emulate another's work. And even harder when doing so without knowing why or what the function of the different subtleties are. This is what has been the real challenge for me, and the "Big Eye Opener! I'm having a Blast!!! Mike Lovett
 
Thanks Mike. That's information I was looking for.
It's interesting that both Dave Ellis and yourself mention contour and feel of the handles as determining factors. So it seems there's more of a noticable difference in the feel of the knife than the look.

Great stuff.. :thumbup:
 
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