I apologize for using acronyms, and I'm not even from Acronym, Ohio! (Maybe I need to buy a vowel!). A SOF 2LT is a Special Operations Force Second Lieutenant--although I think he got promoted to First Lieutenant recently. SOF in the Army is the "Green Beret." The military is famous for being able to speak in Acronyms. Sorry again!
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2000
- Messages
- 9
Bruce,
Hello neighbor. I was surfing the net, and happened upon your posting, in which you asked/stated
"A question for Les: A custom to you denotes a knife made by the guy whose name is on the blade. In most other endeavors, a custom is something designed, at least in part, by the customer--using his input, regardless of who
built it. For instance, I live one street over from Walt Campbell of Campbell's knives. He does all his own work--although I'm not sure he heat treats. He has developed and sells a set group of knives. He also advertises that he will consider doing something to the customer's specifications. Which are the custom knives? His regular, advertised knives, his work with customer input, or both? Or perhaps only those he makes only one of? By the way, I've learned a bunch from this forum and thank all who have helped enlighten me!"
In reply:
I do ALL my own work, which by the way DOES include heat treating!
90% of the knives we sell are "Custom" orders. The customer specifies the blade shape, size & finish. The customer also specifies handle specifications, and sheath preferences.
The other 10% of the knives I make are not made to a particular customer's wishes, but each is "custom made" to please my eye, and hopefully that of the person who selects it from my showcase.
Best Wishes
------------------
Walt Campbell
Campbell Custom Handmade Knives
http://www.knives.net
Hello neighbor. I was surfing the net, and happened upon your posting, in which you asked/stated
"A question for Les: A custom to you denotes a knife made by the guy whose name is on the blade. In most other endeavors, a custom is something designed, at least in part, by the customer--using his input, regardless of who
built it. For instance, I live one street over from Walt Campbell of Campbell's knives. He does all his own work--although I'm not sure he heat treats. He has developed and sells a set group of knives. He also advertises that he will consider doing something to the customer's specifications. Which are the custom knives? His regular, advertised knives, his work with customer input, or both? Or perhaps only those he makes only one of? By the way, I've learned a bunch from this forum and thank all who have helped enlighten me!"
In reply:
I do ALL my own work, which by the way DOES include heat treating!
90% of the knives we sell are "Custom" orders. The customer specifies the blade shape, size & finish. The customer also specifies handle specifications, and sheath preferences.
The other 10% of the knives I make are not made to a particular customer's wishes, but each is "custom made" to please my eye, and hopefully that of the person who selects it from my showcase.
Best Wishes
------------------
Walt Campbell
Campbell Custom Handmade Knives
http://www.knives.net
- Joined
- Apr 28, 1999
- Messages
- 349
I have been making knives since 1948 and do all my own work to include heat treating (that old blacksmith chewed my a-- time and again til I got it down pat). All blades are tested by me and if they don't perform they go into the scrap iron pile. JUNK DON'T LEAVE MY SHOP, PERIOD. That's custom/hand made, and that's the reason you pay twice as much for them as you do for a factory knife. In life you don't always get what you pay for but you damn sure pay for what you get.
Gave you a dimes worth for 2cents.
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old pete
Gave you a dimes worth for 2cents.
------------------
old pete
- Joined
- Feb 3, 1999
- Messages
- 3,180
Not trying to pick a fight, just curious, what about say . . . Bob Loveless. Are his knives Custom, Production or Custom/Production?
I really love his fighters.
At the Blade Show a large Loveless fighter caught my eye. It was in a display case with twenty other models and all twenty knives were to be sold as a set.
The story went that a customer called and wanted one of every knife from Loveless' 1971 or 1972 (I forget which) catalog. The set was "about $100,000" according to the gentleman behind the counter.
Let's say for instance I find a nice Loveless fighter, am I buying a production knife?
Ya'll brought up Randall being "production" knives. I can look through their catalog and have one of their models "customized", but it's still a production knife. I got that. But are any Randall's custom? If the maker starts as a custom maker, then get's classified as "manufacturer", does this effect his older custom pieces?
What classifies a maker as "Custom" or "Production" or even "Handmade" for that matter. Is it cataloged models? Is is assistants, how about apprentices? The number of produced? The price they put on their products? Voted out of the club? Ones a maker goes to the "dark side", is there any returning? Can he make custom pieces while making production knives?
I ask because this is obviously a much contested area and as a consumer (aka buyer of knives), I'd like to know.
Thank you
John
I really love his fighters.
At the Blade Show a large Loveless fighter caught my eye. It was in a display case with twenty other models and all twenty knives were to be sold as a set.
The story went that a customer called and wanted one of every knife from Loveless' 1971 or 1972 (I forget which) catalog. The set was "about $100,000" according to the gentleman behind the counter.
Let's say for instance I find a nice Loveless fighter, am I buying a production knife?
Ya'll brought up Randall being "production" knives. I can look through their catalog and have one of their models "customized", but it's still a production knife. I got that. But are any Randall's custom? If the maker starts as a custom maker, then get's classified as "manufacturer", does this effect his older custom pieces?
What classifies a maker as "Custom" or "Production" or even "Handmade" for that matter. Is it cataloged models? Is is assistants, how about apprentices? The number of produced? The price they put on their products? Voted out of the club? Ones a maker goes to the "dark side", is there any returning? Can he make custom pieces while making production knives?
I ask because this is obviously a much contested area and as a consumer (aka buyer of knives), I'd like to know.
Thank you
John
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2000
- Messages
- 175
Pete,
I happen to know that you make "plain" folders that are nowhere near twice the cost of a factory folder with similar materials
In fact I don't think you can get factories to use forged D2 in a folder and jigged bone handles with microscrew construction and great handfitted liner lock. If you could the resulting factory knife would cost a sight more than what you charge for such a piece!
Kevin
------------------
Kevin Pensinger
The EDGE Equipment
sales@theedgeequipment.com
Contact The EDGE for your custom cutlery needs!
I happen to know that you make "plain" folders that are nowhere near twice the cost of a factory folder with similar materials
In fact I don't think you can get factories to use forged D2 in a folder and jigged bone handles with microscrew construction and great handfitted liner lock. If you could the resulting factory knife would cost a sight more than what you charge for such a piece!
Kevin
------------------
Kevin Pensinger
The EDGE Equipment
sales@theedgeequipment.com
Contact The EDGE for your custom cutlery needs!
Hello John,
I was fortunate enough to see the collection you were refering to myself. It was truly an awesome display!!! That was J.W. Denton's table... He had some wonderful Loveless pieces --- some of which we'll never see again! What really amazed me was how nice he was about letting people handle the knives (myself included)!!! I told them I just wanted to look at the Loveless' and that I could not afford any of them, and they still told me to handle any of them I wanted.... The younger guy was just picking them up and handing them to me.... It was kind of an odd feeling picking up a wonderful knife then seeing a $10,000 price tag on the other side...
I was fortunate enough to see the collection you were refering to myself. It was truly an awesome display!!! That was J.W. Denton's table... He had some wonderful Loveless pieces --- some of which we'll never see again! What really amazed me was how nice he was about letting people handle the knives (myself included)!!! I told them I just wanted to look at the Loveless' and that I could not afford any of them, and they still told me to handle any of them I wanted.... The younger guy was just picking them up and handing them to me.... It was kind of an odd feeling picking up a wonderful knife then seeing a $10,000 price tag on the other side...
- Joined
- Feb 3, 1999
- Messages
- 3,180
Ya' gotta' love Bob Loveless' work.
I keep hoping that I'll help some elderly lady clean out her garage or something and she'll offer me "this big old knife with the naked girl on it, it belonged to my husband".
(hey, I can hope can't I?)
John
I keep hoping that I'll help some elderly lady clean out her garage or something and she'll offer me "this big old knife with the naked girl on it, it belonged to my husband".
(hey, I can hope can't I?)
John
- Joined
- Apr 28, 1999
- Messages
- 349
Lest you should get the wrong idea, I have nothing against factory knives or the hand made guy who has gone into a production mode to feed his needs, or wants for that mater. If you like any of them then for gosh sakes buy it, it's your money. Lets not define custom/hand made so loosely that the knife buyer is confused and gets poked by some fast talking jerk with a $5 POS. If we get enough of that kind of thing the guys in foggey bottoms will want to regulate knives and as you all know, " Government does nothing well".
Another dimes worth.
------------------
old pete
Another dimes worth.
------------------
old pete
- Joined
- May 13, 1999
- Messages
- 1,926
Okay, why not -
A knife is production, handmade, semi-custom, or production. A maker is not. A maker can create any type of knife he wants, and in any variety.
If Bob Loveless makes a dozen identical drop point hunters in stag to bring to a show (WHERE? WHAT SHOW?), they are extremely expensive handmade knives, but not custom. If Joe Schmoe, first-time-maker, builds a knife, to a customer's order, out of a railroad spike and a piece of driftwood, that knife is a cheap-o custom.
I have a table full of knives. The ones I bought off of show tables or from dealers are, 90% of the time, handmade but not custom.
I reserve the term "custom" for knives that are either specifically made for me, or for their initial purchaser. Additionally, I consider knives that the maker has created as a one-of-a-kind special knife to be custom.
Remember - this is not a discussion about relative merit in production methods, but one of simple definition.
------------------
AKTI Member #A000832
"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, the bear eats you."
A knife is production, handmade, semi-custom, or production. A maker is not. A maker can create any type of knife he wants, and in any variety.
If Bob Loveless makes a dozen identical drop point hunters in stag to bring to a show (WHERE? WHAT SHOW?), they are extremely expensive handmade knives, but not custom. If Joe Schmoe, first-time-maker, builds a knife, to a customer's order, out of a railroad spike and a piece of driftwood, that knife is a cheap-o custom.
I have a table full of knives. The ones I bought off of show tables or from dealers are, 90% of the time, handmade but not custom.
I reserve the term "custom" for knives that are either specifically made for me, or for their initial purchaser. Additionally, I consider knives that the maker has created as a one-of-a-kind special knife to be custom.
Remember - this is not a discussion about relative merit in production methods, but one of simple definition.
------------------
AKTI Member #A000832
"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, the bear eats you."
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Ok here we go again.
Custom knife can have two meanings.
First, it is a knife either designed for a particular customer by the maker, or by the customer for the maker or a colboration between the two.
Second, this is the most common. It is marketing term to bring a commonality into the lexicon of knives. Sometime in the 70's the term was coined to categorize all handmade knives.
As I have said before, the only guys who seem to be confused on this are those who are trying to somehow convert their factory knife into the custom knife category.
By the way guys, I don't make the rules. The United States Knifemakers Guild has established rules and guildlines that it's members to follow. Failure to do so can result in a wide variety of sanctions from the Guild.
A simple test is this. Send a list of knives you want to have on your table at the Guild show to the Guild. They will then send you back a response of what you can and cannot have on the table (this will constitute for you what the Guild feels is and is not a custom knife).
Knives you cannot put on a table at the Guild Show:
Any current, past or antique factory knife.
Any current or past Randall
Any post 1998 Chris Reeve knives
Any factory knife that has been sanctioned by the custom maker to have it built.
Part of the confusion is the fact that some Custom Knife show promoters lack the stones to tell table holders to remove factory knives off their tables or allow factory knives in their show.
The Las Vegas Classic Custom Knife Show
The Southeastern Custom Knife Show.
The Knifemakers Guild Show
Are three shows I attend where no factory knives are allowed at all.
Are there makers who have had their knives counterfitted..Yes
Are the makers out there who have so utilized the machines available today that 80% of the handmade process have been removed....yes.
Are these makers still considered custom makers...yes.
Why, becuase they have still followed the rules of the Guild.
Are they under more and more scrutiny becuase of the construction methods both from the Guild and the ultimate juge.. the consumer? Yes.
It is up to each individual to determine their pre-requistes for their "custom" knife collection.
I personally have spent countless thousands of hours learning all I can about makers, methods and metallury to try and make an informed decision when buying a custom knife or working with a custom knife maker.
Guys I will submit to you with as little ego as possible, that I know more about custom knives than the average collector. Further I know more about marketing, designing and selling custom knives than most makers. This is not by accident, rather it is because of 16 years of buying, selling and trading custom knives.
When I give my opinion it is just my opinion. However, it is a very educated opinion.
Because I am a custom knife dealer, I go out of my way to educate my clients and sometimes those that are not.
Think about the knowledge you currently posses. How many of you would take that knowledge and purchase $250,000.00 worth of knives over the next year and by the end of that year have sold every one of those knives?
There are a few custom knife buyers who spend this amount of money each year on custom knives. However, they don't generally sell them.
This is what every full time custom knife dealer does on yearly basis. Actually, we spend more than that a year on knives, oh and don't forget about the extra $30 -$50 thousand dollars you need for expenses.
Point to this is simple. Guys who do it for a living generally have more knowledge about a particular collectible market than those who buy a few knives a year.
As with all of us, the knowledge we possess has been given to us by virtue of experiencing things. Whether in school or in life.
It is up to all of us who collect and/or use custom knives to continue to demand that the lines do not get fuzzy between custom and factory knives.
Currently, I am writing a book that I hope will help a lot of people. If you have any doubt what is and what is not a custom knife.
This book will clear it up for you. Interestingly, there will be no pictures, no makers names, and no drawings. This book will challange you to ask questions, gather information and seek advise from "wise council". Doing so will allow you to make an informed and thought out decision.
You will find yourself no longer running from table to table at shows wondering which is the best to buy.
You, will know which knife will best fit into your collection.
Because you will have developed your own criteria for the knife you purchase (what ever that is).
Will this relate to success in selling in the aftermarket, yes, if that is one of the goals in your collection.
As someone wrote earlier, it is your money spend it how you want.
They are exactly correct. But don't buy a factory knife hoping you can magically turn into a custom knife by arguing the attributes enough.
Guys, enjoy the hunt. At times that is more fun than actually buying the knife!
------------------
Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
"Nobody throws me my own guns and tells me to run, nobody!
Custom knife can have two meanings.
First, it is a knife either designed for a particular customer by the maker, or by the customer for the maker or a colboration between the two.
Second, this is the most common. It is marketing term to bring a commonality into the lexicon of knives. Sometime in the 70's the term was coined to categorize all handmade knives.
As I have said before, the only guys who seem to be confused on this are those who are trying to somehow convert their factory knife into the custom knife category.
By the way guys, I don't make the rules. The United States Knifemakers Guild has established rules and guildlines that it's members to follow. Failure to do so can result in a wide variety of sanctions from the Guild.
A simple test is this. Send a list of knives you want to have on your table at the Guild show to the Guild. They will then send you back a response of what you can and cannot have on the table (this will constitute for you what the Guild feels is and is not a custom knife).
Knives you cannot put on a table at the Guild Show:
Any current, past or antique factory knife.
Any current or past Randall
Any post 1998 Chris Reeve knives
Any factory knife that has been sanctioned by the custom maker to have it built.
Part of the confusion is the fact that some Custom Knife show promoters lack the stones to tell table holders to remove factory knives off their tables or allow factory knives in their show.
The Las Vegas Classic Custom Knife Show
The Southeastern Custom Knife Show.
The Knifemakers Guild Show
Are three shows I attend where no factory knives are allowed at all.
Are there makers who have had their knives counterfitted..Yes
Are the makers out there who have so utilized the machines available today that 80% of the handmade process have been removed....yes.
Are these makers still considered custom makers...yes.
Why, becuase they have still followed the rules of the Guild.
Are they under more and more scrutiny becuase of the construction methods both from the Guild and the ultimate juge.. the consumer? Yes.
It is up to each individual to determine their pre-requistes for their "custom" knife collection.
I personally have spent countless thousands of hours learning all I can about makers, methods and metallury to try and make an informed decision when buying a custom knife or working with a custom knife maker.
Guys I will submit to you with as little ego as possible, that I know more about custom knives than the average collector. Further I know more about marketing, designing and selling custom knives than most makers. This is not by accident, rather it is because of 16 years of buying, selling and trading custom knives.
When I give my opinion it is just my opinion. However, it is a very educated opinion.
Because I am a custom knife dealer, I go out of my way to educate my clients and sometimes those that are not.
Think about the knowledge you currently posses. How many of you would take that knowledge and purchase $250,000.00 worth of knives over the next year and by the end of that year have sold every one of those knives?
There are a few custom knife buyers who spend this amount of money each year on custom knives. However, they don't generally sell them.
This is what every full time custom knife dealer does on yearly basis. Actually, we spend more than that a year on knives, oh and don't forget about the extra $30 -$50 thousand dollars you need for expenses.
Point to this is simple. Guys who do it for a living generally have more knowledge about a particular collectible market than those who buy a few knives a year.
As with all of us, the knowledge we possess has been given to us by virtue of experiencing things. Whether in school or in life.
It is up to all of us who collect and/or use custom knives to continue to demand that the lines do not get fuzzy between custom and factory knives.
Currently, I am writing a book that I hope will help a lot of people. If you have any doubt what is and what is not a custom knife.
This book will clear it up for you. Interestingly, there will be no pictures, no makers names, and no drawings. This book will challange you to ask questions, gather information and seek advise from "wise council". Doing so will allow you to make an informed and thought out decision.
You will find yourself no longer running from table to table at shows wondering which is the best to buy.
You, will know which knife will best fit into your collection.
Because you will have developed your own criteria for the knife you purchase (what ever that is).
Will this relate to success in selling in the aftermarket, yes, if that is one of the goals in your collection.
As someone wrote earlier, it is your money spend it how you want.
They are exactly correct. But don't buy a factory knife hoping you can magically turn into a custom knife by arguing the attributes enough.
Guys, enjoy the hunt. At times that is more fun than actually buying the knife!
------------------
Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
"Nobody throws me my own guns and tells me to run, nobody!
Man, I didn't expect this thread to surface again, seems like ancient history. But it indicates a failing on the part of the "Knifemakers Guild" to educate the knife buying public. It appears that in defining the word "custom" as they did, knife buyers became, and continue to be, confused. It may continue to fit guild purposes but definitely not those of the buying public whose definition is more like "made-to-order."
I don't have a problem with the concept of defining a category of knives as those made by one person (like Walt Campbell's, my neighbor, who makes some very fine knives!). I just gag on the term "custom" when the guild tries to ram it down my throat. Since I am not a member of the guild, why do I have to live with their definition? If the guild wants to sell me knives, don't tell me it's a custom if I didn't order it the way I wanted it and it isn't made for me!
I know this will irritate Les Robertson (although unintentionally, Les and I both know the value of a good knife to a soldier!) because he has adopted the guild's convention for the term "custom", inlcuding using it in the name of his company. But now may be the time to recommend the guild rename the category with a more appropriate name.
What do I have to do with Guild business? I'm the customer and I'm always right!
Bruce Woodbury
I don't have a problem with the concept of defining a category of knives as those made by one person (like Walt Campbell's, my neighbor, who makes some very fine knives!). I just gag on the term "custom" when the guild tries to ram it down my throat. Since I am not a member of the guild, why do I have to live with their definition? If the guild wants to sell me knives, don't tell me it's a custom if I didn't order it the way I wanted it and it isn't made for me!
I know this will irritate Les Robertson (although unintentionally, Les and I both know the value of a good knife to a soldier!) because he has adopted the guild's convention for the term "custom", inlcuding using it in the name of his company. But now may be the time to recommend the guild rename the category with a more appropriate name.
What do I have to do with Guild business? I'm the customer and I'm always right!
Bruce Woodbury
- Joined
- Apr 28, 1999
- Messages
- 349
Bruce
There is no intent on the part of the Guild to ram anything down your throat, Every organization has it's own rules made up by them,to suit them, and has little or nothing to do with what you or I think. A good example is the ABS who's existance is based on promoting and educating on the making and use of the forged blade. This may be of no interest to some and be just the thing to others, and that's fine. To each his own. What Les is trying to present is that for good or bad the Custom Forum is based on the strict definition set out by the Guild. At the risk of hurting your feelings, the Custom Forum is likely to stay just as it is like, it or not. Having said that (and I intend no insult whatsoever) Watered down definitions of anything are an automatic sign of self distruct,(look at the once great knife shows that today are no more than glorified flea markets) I doubt that anyone in a position of control of the Blade Forum wants to take that risk.
In the end define anything you want the way you want to but don't get upset with those who for one reason or another don't agree.
Collect what you want and enjoy the heck out of it, that's what knives are all about.
25 cents worth this time.
D)
------------------
old pete
There is no intent on the part of the Guild to ram anything down your throat, Every organization has it's own rules made up by them,to suit them, and has little or nothing to do with what you or I think. A good example is the ABS who's existance is based on promoting and educating on the making and use of the forged blade. This may be of no interest to some and be just the thing to others, and that's fine. To each his own. What Les is trying to present is that for good or bad the Custom Forum is based on the strict definition set out by the Guild. At the risk of hurting your feelings, the Custom Forum is likely to stay just as it is like, it or not. Having said that (and I intend no insult whatsoever) Watered down definitions of anything are an automatic sign of self distruct,(look at the once great knife shows that today are no more than glorified flea markets) I doubt that anyone in a position of control of the Blade Forum wants to take that risk.
In the end define anything you want the way you want to but don't get upset with those who for one reason or another don't agree.
Collect what you want and enjoy the heck out of it, that's what knives are all about.
25 cents worth this time.
D)
------------------
old pete
- Joined
- Apr 28, 1999
- Messages
- 349
Bruce
There is no intent on the part of the Guild to ram anything down your throat, Every organization has it's own rules made up by them,to suit them, and has little or nothing to do with what you or I think. A good example is the ABS who's existance is based on promoting and educating on the making and use of the forged blade. This may be of no interest to some and be just the thing to others, and that's fine. To each his own. What Les is trying to present is that for good or bad the Custom Forum is based on the strict definition set out by the Guild. At the risk of hurting your feelings, the Custom Forum is likely to stay just as it is like, it or not. Having said that (and I intend no insult whatsoever) Watered down definitions of anything are an automatic sign of self distruct,(look at the once great knife shows that today are no more than glorified flea markets) I doubt that anyone in a position of control of the Blade Forum wants to take that risk.
In the end define anything you want the way you want to but don't get upset with those who for one reason or another don't agree.
Collect what you want and enjoy the heck out of it, that's what knives are all about.
25 cents worth this time.
Sorry, double post, 25 cents and 25 cents is half a dollar, Your getting double value. Who said you can't get something for nothing (or is it nothing for something, makes my head hurt, too confusing).
------------------
old pete
[This message has been edited by Pete Peterson (edited 06-19-2000).]
There is no intent on the part of the Guild to ram anything down your throat, Every organization has it's own rules made up by them,to suit them, and has little or nothing to do with what you or I think. A good example is the ABS who's existance is based on promoting and educating on the making and use of the forged blade. This may be of no interest to some and be just the thing to others, and that's fine. To each his own. What Les is trying to present is that for good or bad the Custom Forum is based on the strict definition set out by the Guild. At the risk of hurting your feelings, the Custom Forum is likely to stay just as it is like, it or not. Having said that (and I intend no insult whatsoever) Watered down definitions of anything are an automatic sign of self distruct,(look at the once great knife shows that today are no more than glorified flea markets) I doubt that anyone in a position of control of the Blade Forum wants to take that risk.
In the end define anything you want the way you want to but don't get upset with those who for one reason or another don't agree.
Collect what you want and enjoy the heck out of it, that's what knives are all about.
25 cents worth this time.
Sorry, double post, 25 cents and 25 cents is half a dollar, Your getting double value. Who said you can't get something for nothing (or is it nothing for something, makes my head hurt, too confusing).
------------------
old pete
[This message has been edited by Pete Peterson (edited 06-19-2000).]
- Joined
- Oct 4, 1998
- Messages
- 4,131
Not that I speak for Blade Forums, just for myself.
I purchased some nice stuff of the tables this year at the Blade Show. Varying from a small Talonite knife by Rob (Thanks Les) to an auto by Darrel. In between was a mosaic Damascus Bowie by John Fitch and a whittler by Richard Rogers. I know all of these are hand made, but I do not consider them custom. Even in the case of the whittler that Richard made (I sent him the factory pattern that it was based on)
I lean along Brians thoughts, the custom knives I own are a result of sitting down with the maker and talking an idea out, maybe even sending materials to the maker to see if he or she wants to use them.
It looks like my definition of Custom is even stricter than the Guild's.
BTW - Pete - Congratulations on that Journeyman's Stamp! I am betting your son-in-law will be one up on you next year
.
Really enjoyed spending a little time with all three of you. That's a pretty good group you have there. - Gus
------------------
" I am continually reminded of the rewards of dealing with custom knife makers and the custom knife community." Jeff J.
I purchased some nice stuff of the tables this year at the Blade Show. Varying from a small Talonite knife by Rob (Thanks Les) to an auto by Darrel. In between was a mosaic Damascus Bowie by John Fitch and a whittler by Richard Rogers. I know all of these are hand made, but I do not consider them custom. Even in the case of the whittler that Richard made (I sent him the factory pattern that it was based on)
I lean along Brians thoughts, the custom knives I own are a result of sitting down with the maker and talking an idea out, maybe even sending materials to the maker to see if he or she wants to use them.
It looks like my definition of Custom is even stricter than the Guild's.
BTW - Pete - Congratulations on that Journeyman's Stamp! I am betting your son-in-law will be one up on you next year
Really enjoyed spending a little time with all three of you. That's a pretty good group you have there. - Gus
------------------
" I am continually reminded of the rewards of dealing with custom knife makers and the custom knife community." Jeff J.
We, as much as we like to resist have to just give up what WE would like knives to be called and go along with the terminology that had fallen into common usage in the language we speak. Being rather old fashioned I called the knives benchmade
unless they were to customer specs yada yada.
But the knife making and collecting world had taken up the word custom to be exactly as Les described it. The knife that a few thousand guys are making for the most part by themselves in their own shops. Why continue to debate the word? If the world calls benchmade knives custom knives I just guess I'll have to call them custom knives too is i want everybody to know what the hell I'm talking about. And everybody darn well knows that Randall knives do not fit into that group. We all know what we expect to see when we go to a Custom knife show.
This forum is to discuss them knives.
It doesn't matter if somebody thinks Randall knives are as good as or better than. This isn't the place set aside to discuss that knife.
unless they were to customer specs yada yada.
But the knife making and collecting world had taken up the word custom to be exactly as Les described it. The knife that a few thousand guys are making for the most part by themselves in their own shops. Why continue to debate the word? If the world calls benchmade knives custom knives I just guess I'll have to call them custom knives too is i want everybody to know what the hell I'm talking about. And everybody darn well knows that Randall knives do not fit into that group. We all know what we expect to see when we go to a Custom knife show.
This forum is to discuss them knives.
It doesn't matter if somebody thinks Randall knives are as good as or better than. This isn't the place set aside to discuss that knife.
- Joined
- Oct 4, 1998
- Messages
- 4,131
You are correct we should go along with the terminology that the Guild (and Les) uses as far as the this forum goes. I am old fashoned too, but that can change. Good point Tom.
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Hi Bruce,
Your comments don't irritate me. As several people have pointed out, those of us who buy and sell custom knives have adopted the rules of the Knifemakers Guild.
Again, these are just guidelines and to this point it is all we have. Currently, there is a movement to redefine the guidelines. Mostly to do with what machines can be used.
As I wrote in the earlier post, your collection is yours. You should buy and collect what you like.
But don't buy a pig and try and claim its a cow just because they both have 4 legs, a tail, two ears and their ribs are yummy when cooked properly with barbque sauce!
As to the reference of the name of my business having the word custom in it. I feel it is appropriate for both of the meanings of the word custom in reference to knives.
You will note,I have and do offer, both "custom" knives and knives that are made to my specifications "custom" knives. Also, unlike other "custom knife" dealers there never has been and never will be a factory knife on my site. I specifically do this to educate my clientel and lessen the confusion of the would be knife buyer.
So Bruce I agree with you to that point, that something should be done to lessen the confusion. Which is why I post every time this issue comes up.
As for you as the customer always being right. Welcome to the 21st century, the customer is only right until they hit the point where they are wrong.
Some customers can become a liability to positive cash flow (the life's blood of a business). Consequently, those customers are no longer viewed as a viable asset and their role in a successful business are "redefined". This is what happens when you write business and marketing plans on a regular basis.
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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
"Nobody throws me my own guns and tells me to run, nobody!
Your comments don't irritate me. As several people have pointed out, those of us who buy and sell custom knives have adopted the rules of the Knifemakers Guild.
Again, these are just guidelines and to this point it is all we have. Currently, there is a movement to redefine the guidelines. Mostly to do with what machines can be used.
As I wrote in the earlier post, your collection is yours. You should buy and collect what you like.
But don't buy a pig and try and claim its a cow just because they both have 4 legs, a tail, two ears and their ribs are yummy when cooked properly with barbque sauce!
As to the reference of the name of my business having the word custom in it. I feel it is appropriate for both of the meanings of the word custom in reference to knives.
You will note,I have and do offer, both "custom" knives and knives that are made to my specifications "custom" knives. Also, unlike other "custom knife" dealers there never has been and never will be a factory knife on my site. I specifically do this to educate my clientel and lessen the confusion of the would be knife buyer.
So Bruce I agree with you to that point, that something should be done to lessen the confusion. Which is why I post every time this issue comes up.
As for you as the customer always being right. Welcome to the 21st century, the customer is only right until they hit the point where they are wrong.
Some customers can become a liability to positive cash flow (the life's blood of a business). Consequently, those customers are no longer viewed as a viable asset and their role in a successful business are "redefined". This is what happens when you write business and marketing plans on a regular basis.
------------------
Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
"Nobody throws me my own guns and tells me to run, nobody!
Some good points, all. And maybe this misuse of the word "custom" is now a convention and is a windmill that doesn't need tilting. So be it. I'll capitulate!
Pete Peterson, I'm not upset, but just because the guild says something, doesn't make it so, or easy to understand, or right. The guild has it's own rules but those rules extend outside the organization to the knife buying public and we are confused. Maybe the guild could explain why they did what they did. Maybe it was the best term they could think of, I don't know. But just because the guild made something confusing to the public -- those they want to sell to -- doesn't mean they can't go back and help us understand. I am not a new user or collector but what is there to help a novice know the terminology. Im sure you will indicate this forum and that's good, but if you don't run into a thread like this, you may go days or weeks not understanding.
But I must make a point about the customer always being right. Of course this is the collective "customer" not the individual. There are some customers that need thrown out the front door! But for the most part, if we don't cater to the customer we'll have no business. The hallmark of businesses that have done well, or better than they had previously, is to become customer focused.
For example, the auto industry. In Henry Ford's time, he made the autos "he" wanted to make -- remember he stated that you can have it in any color as long as it's black! Many companies try to sell the products they can make rather than make the products they can sell. Later during the 50's through 80's, the car companies sold cars to dealers, not to the customer. If the dealers were happy, so was GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc. These guys did'nt care about the customer and it showed in the quality of their cars. They were protected by their customers -- the dealers, and the rest of us suffered. What's happening now? You go to the internet and build the car of your dreams from all the options available, order it, and it is sent to a dealer near you. The only reason someone takes a car from a lot is if it has a deep discount or they are in a time crunch. The customer has the power now, or at least more than we did, and we are using it. If a company doesn't please me with their product, service, time sensitivity, etc. I just don't go back -- there are lots of choices.
It's the same with knives. We, the customers, know what we want and are looking for someone to provide it. If it is a brick and mortar store, the internet, or a paper catalog from the mail, it's ok, if they have the qualities I mentioned earlier. If these are missing or substandard, we don't go back. Read the G, B, U forum to see that people are ready to post on companies that don't return phone calls or e-mails, sometimes sent only minutes before!
Bottom line is the world of commerce is more customer driven than it's ever been and those that don't learn this lesson early will suffer.
I'm going to place a "sticky note" in my dictionary that says: "custom: In knives only, a knife made by one maker only, regardless of equipment used."
Regards
Bruce Woodbury
[This message has been edited by bruce (edited 06-20-2000).]
Pete Peterson, I'm not upset, but just because the guild says something, doesn't make it so, or easy to understand, or right. The guild has it's own rules but those rules extend outside the organization to the knife buying public and we are confused. Maybe the guild could explain why they did what they did. Maybe it was the best term they could think of, I don't know. But just because the guild made something confusing to the public -- those they want to sell to -- doesn't mean they can't go back and help us understand. I am not a new user or collector but what is there to help a novice know the terminology. Im sure you will indicate this forum and that's good, but if you don't run into a thread like this, you may go days or weeks not understanding.
But I must make a point about the customer always being right. Of course this is the collective "customer" not the individual. There are some customers that need thrown out the front door! But for the most part, if we don't cater to the customer we'll have no business. The hallmark of businesses that have done well, or better than they had previously, is to become customer focused.
For example, the auto industry. In Henry Ford's time, he made the autos "he" wanted to make -- remember he stated that you can have it in any color as long as it's black! Many companies try to sell the products they can make rather than make the products they can sell. Later during the 50's through 80's, the car companies sold cars to dealers, not to the customer. If the dealers were happy, so was GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc. These guys did'nt care about the customer and it showed in the quality of their cars. They were protected by their customers -- the dealers, and the rest of us suffered. What's happening now? You go to the internet and build the car of your dreams from all the options available, order it, and it is sent to a dealer near you. The only reason someone takes a car from a lot is if it has a deep discount or they are in a time crunch. The customer has the power now, or at least more than we did, and we are using it. If a company doesn't please me with their product, service, time sensitivity, etc. I just don't go back -- there are lots of choices.
It's the same with knives. We, the customers, know what we want and are looking for someone to provide it. If it is a brick and mortar store, the internet, or a paper catalog from the mail, it's ok, if they have the qualities I mentioned earlier. If these are missing or substandard, we don't go back. Read the G, B, U forum to see that people are ready to post on companies that don't return phone calls or e-mails, sometimes sent only minutes before!
Bottom line is the world of commerce is more customer driven than it's ever been and those that don't learn this lesson early will suffer.
I'm going to place a "sticky note" in my dictionary that says: "custom: In knives only, a knife made by one maker only, regardless of equipment used."
Regards
Bruce Woodbury
[This message has been edited by bruce (edited 06-20-2000).]
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Bruce,
You are correct about the internet providing a lot of choices for customers. Also, it has always been the perogative of the customer to shop anywhere they want.
Because, due in part to the internet, custom knives has reached a pinacle it has never seen before. Most big name makers are well over a year behind. Many of these makers were only a few months behind just two years.
I know that internet has increased my business by over 30% each of the last two years.
However, with this comes the onslaught of phone calls and emails. I know for myself I average about 80 emails and 25 phone calls a day. Get busy with a project for a couple days and you can see it is very easy to get behind.
Due to the large amount of emails at times it may take me a week or more to answer them. The same with returning phone calls.
With this volume of contacts on a daily basis you can now appreciate why, at times, some specific (not the "collective") customers have their role redefined.
Your ability to shop where you like is curtailed when the laws of micro-economics come into play. That being the custom knife market as opposed to the factory knife market.
You are correct with factory knives the customer is king. After all, they are produced by the millions all around the world on a yearly basis. It seems a new model comes out monthly. Because, with rare exception, the supply never exceeds demand.
With custom knives, you are starting to witness the opposite starting to happen. On a regular basis the demand exceeds the supply. While there are thousands of custom makers world wide, many of these do not yet possess the skills to make a knife that is in demand. Others possess the knife making skills, but lack the marketing skills to introduce themselves to their target market.
Lacking the ability to improve both in the initial 3-5 year period of knife making will generally lead the knife maker to consider another vocation.
It is apparent you feel strongly about this. Perhaps you should become a member of the Guild and work to upgrade their definition of what a "custom" knife is.
However, you must be willing to put the time and energy into this. I will tell you it will be an uphill battle. Should you not be willing to do this, then you lose the right to stand on the sideline and cry foul.
Bruce, there are others who feel as you do. Perhaps you should contact Mike and spend the $300 to get your own fourm provide a location to discuss this at length.
------------------
Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
"Nobody throws me my own guns and tells me to run, nobody!
You are correct about the internet providing a lot of choices for customers. Also, it has always been the perogative of the customer to shop anywhere they want.
Because, due in part to the internet, custom knives has reached a pinacle it has never seen before. Most big name makers are well over a year behind. Many of these makers were only a few months behind just two years.
I know that internet has increased my business by over 30% each of the last two years.
However, with this comes the onslaught of phone calls and emails. I know for myself I average about 80 emails and 25 phone calls a day. Get busy with a project for a couple days and you can see it is very easy to get behind.
Due to the large amount of emails at times it may take me a week or more to answer them. The same with returning phone calls.
With this volume of contacts on a daily basis you can now appreciate why, at times, some specific (not the "collective") customers have their role redefined.
Your ability to shop where you like is curtailed when the laws of micro-economics come into play. That being the custom knife market as opposed to the factory knife market.
You are correct with factory knives the customer is king. After all, they are produced by the millions all around the world on a yearly basis. It seems a new model comes out monthly. Because, with rare exception, the supply never exceeds demand.
With custom knives, you are starting to witness the opposite starting to happen. On a regular basis the demand exceeds the supply. While there are thousands of custom makers world wide, many of these do not yet possess the skills to make a knife that is in demand. Others possess the knife making skills, but lack the marketing skills to introduce themselves to their target market.
Lacking the ability to improve both in the initial 3-5 year period of knife making will generally lead the knife maker to consider another vocation.
It is apparent you feel strongly about this. Perhaps you should become a member of the Guild and work to upgrade their definition of what a "custom" knife is.
However, you must be willing to put the time and energy into this. I will tell you it will be an uphill battle. Should you not be willing to do this, then you lose the right to stand on the sideline and cry foul.
Bruce, there are others who feel as you do. Perhaps you should contact Mike and spend the $300 to get your own fourm provide a location to discuss this at length.
------------------
Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
"Nobody throws me my own guns and tells me to run, nobody!