recommendation for a knife to defend against a mountain lion

Bigfattyt said:
I linked a site that has a catalogue of attacks going back to 1890................Page after page after page of reports.

I will share one of my favorites (favorite because it demonstrates my point. I saw interviews with her on TV, pictures of her surgery/stitches, and photo's of the deceased mountain lion ):

13 December, 1994. A 25-year-old water quality specialist, Susanne Groves, was attacked and mauled by a cougar on the Ute Mountain Ute Indian Reservation (near Cortez, Colorado). Standing in the shallows down river from the Grass River Bridge, she was taking water samples from the Mancos River. At about 10:30 a.m., (the RMN reported it was 1:30 p.m.) she heard something moving on the bank above. It was awhile before she looked up and saw a lion standing on top of the river's north bank. When they made eye contact, it came down the embankment toward her. Groves stayed in the water thinking the cat was just curious and would leave. As a precaution, perhaps, she began moving from her position nearer to the north bank back toward the south bank where her vehicle was parked.

Instead of leaving, the cat entered the foot deep water without hesitation. Groves now angled across the river toward the north bank, keeping her eyes fixed on the lions as it stared intently back. She yelled and threw water and ice chunks at it. Nothing seemed to deter the cougar which continued to parallel her path, always easing closer. The lion never showed its teeth, nor did it assume any threatening pose such as crouching. The pair went back and forth across the river several times. Then Groves slipped on some rocks and lost her balance. When she fell, the cougar reared up to attack. Groves stated she thought the animal was going for her neck but since she was falling, its jaws instead closed on the back of her head. She was (held) under water for perhaps 10 seconds. Then she must have broken free, as she jumped up from the water and began to run for the south bank.

Once at the bank, she may have slipped, as the next thing she remembered was being on her back and shoving her arm in front of her face in a defensive move. The lion bit down on her arm, but somehow Groves managed to get on top of the lion, her arm still in the animal's mouth. She no longer cared. She shoved her arm as far back in the cat's throat as she could, effectively pinning the animal down. She reached for the forceps (hemostats) dangling in reach from her fishing jacket and stabbed the lion in the eye. She reported her intent was to kill it by reaching the brain.

The lion only responded by growling and biting her arm even harder and by continuing its struggle to get out from under her. This battle continued about 5 minutes until the lion finally released her arm as Groves continued stabbing it. Groves continued to keep the animal pinned beneath her for another 5 minutes or so, as she did not want to give it the strength from gaining firm footing. The lion finally squirmed free, and Groves sprang to her feet to face her attacker. The lion just stood, still staring, so Groves lunged at it to test what the lion would do. It remained standing still, so Groves began backing downstream toward her truck again. About 20 yards away, the bank was less steep and she climbed it and then followed a cow path toward her truck.

Groves managed to get back to her truck and drive for help. Her injuries included five puncture wounds in her head and cuts and scratches on her arms and legs. She was treated at Southwest Memorial Hospital in Cortez and released the same day. Federal Animal Damage Control officers got permission from Ute tribal officals and then used dogs to quickly track and kill the lion. It appeared to be an old female, weighing only 63 pounds - about half the weight for a healthy adult female. Its teeth were worn, so it may have been unable to catch enough food.

Source: (Gary Gerhardt; Rocky Mountain News; 12/15/94) (Cougar Attacks - Encounters of the Worst Kind by Kathy Etling; The Lyons Press; Copyright 2001, Pages 135-136)

http://www.cougarinfo.org/attacks2.htm


People survive cougar attacks all the time. You will note, that many of the fatalities are children, and solo women. Many people have successfully fought off cougars in full attack with nothing but feet and fist, and rock.


I would recommend a fixed blade on the belt, if he is in the mountains, he can get away with a longer knife. I would pick a fighting bowie, if I had the option. Something long enough and heavy enough to chop and stab. 9 inch plus blade. (of course I have a few knives that would work). He might not be willing to carry something that big.

If he is willing to carry a larger fixed blade something like a Cold Steel Khukri would be sweet. They are on sale for $100 off. Basically $200 for a 12 inch knife with 01 steel. Large finger guard on the Plus model. Will stab clear through a large cat, enough oomph to remove entire limbs, or cleave the head.

http://www.ltspecpro.com/Product/39LGKI/GURKHA_KUKRI_PLUS.aspx (I believe Cold Steel is a supporting member here, so if not, I can remove the link).

(their warranty is limited, but I have owned a lot of their products, including a Trailmaster in laminated steel that held up well for a decade before I sold it).


Depending on your budget, Also look at a ESSE Jungelas (less expensive than some large choppers. Nice knife, super warranty and a 9 inch blade), Stuff from Swamp Rat and Scrap Yard and Busse will all be different in price, but all are excellent. (Busse are higher end, Swamp Rat middle and Scrap Yard the cost effective line all from the same Family company Busse plant. They all feature a super warranty, basically forever to any owner, original or not).

If he does not want a fixed blade, I would suggest a large folder like a Cold Steel Talwar XL with opening thumb plate. It will open as you are drawing from pocket. The Espada XL is basically a pocket sword, but it really would be comforting in the hand if you were thinking a cougar had it's eyes on you.


My first choice would be a gun in an appropriate caliber, but I see you don't have that option.

For people saying your husband won't survive, See the above link (or below) I will link about 10 years worth of attacks: You will note, most survive, and even those attacked from behind in the photo's have better odds of surviving than not. One photo of a dead cougar shows the knife the old man used to kill lit. A two hand opening buck lock back with a piddly 3 inch blade.



http://www.cougarinfo.org/attacks3.htm




It is great that you are thinking about it, and hey, knives are cool, even if there is no threat of cougars. Any knife would be better than his hands and harsh language. Bear spray has been mentioned too, and that would be a great idea. A full sized back pack would help.
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You say people survive cougar attacks all the time but failed to mention the 10 or so deaths from 1991 to 2000.
 
Guns and spray might be great when a cougar is at a distance, but I don't think that such options will be very effective if the cougar is already on top of you.

I have no illusions that a knife will guarantee survival when attacked by a cougar, but if a cougar was on top of me, clawing and biting, I would rather have a knife than just my bare hands to fight with.

And if a person were to do a Google search, they could find documented incidents in modern times of people successfully fighting off, and even killing, attacking cougars with knives. In some cases, the people were actually able to pull out and open folding knives while the attack was ongoing and the cougar was on top of them.

I have, and always would, carry a fixed-blade when traveling in cougar territory.
 
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Bigfatts said:
I would think a 7" bladed fixed blade would be plenty. I would also look at more of a stabbing/slashing knife rather than a chopper. Like has been said, cats are typically ambush predators and you may not know you're in trouble until you are underneath 150lbs of toothie muscle. I can't see myself getting in a decent chop while pinned to the ground so I would want something I know would make a nice deep wound. Since the primary thought so far is with cat wrestling I would want something double edged or with at least a sharpened upper swedge.
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I agree with this - if a cat is on top of you then you don't want a blade that's too long, and if it's not on top of you yet it moves too fast to expect to chop it before it makes contact. Pointy is good since you want a good shape for penetration but I would avoid double-edged because in close-quarters combat with a cat you might cut yourself with the back edge, which is counterproductive. I would also want a handle that provided a very secure grip. Something like the Temperance 2 shown on the first page seems about perfect. But definitely it should be worn on the belt so it can be pulled if he's on his back on the ground, having it on the pack is no help in that I woud not recommend a folder since you have to opena folder for it to work and if you fumble the opening (not an unlikely problem with big bitey cat on your back) it's no good to you.
 
A cold steel Laredo Bowie if fix blade and a cheaper g-10 steel espada xl I seen those for 140 and its a big folder

They also have a 8" double edge with a sub hilt I for get the model They show film on one of his DVD 's of son killing a African Cape Buffalo that had his father down attacking him . Took 3 thrust and the big Buffalo went down
 
12" HI sirupati, the kukri is designed for woodwork/field use, and self defense, see gurkas.
 
Boar spear and a buddy system. Cats are ambush predators, The chances of you seeing it coming are pretty slim.
 
+1 Kukri
Slashing and chopping while at distance and still be able to stab and cut when in close contact.
Have your knife on a strap (backpack) on your left or right chest. Your arms will want to be in front of your chest/tummy/face anyways to block the attacks. No need to create an opening by bringing your hand to your lower right hip to draw a knife from a traditional belt carry position...
 
cncpro11 said:
You say people survive cougar attacks all the time but failed to mention the 10 or so deaths from 1991 to 2000.
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I don't see how saying 10 deaths in 10 years discredits his statement of saying people survive cougar attacks all the time. To make that statement you'd have to tell me how many attacks happened in that 10yr period - and I'm guessing it's a lot more than 10...



Back to the question though - you want as many methods of defense as possible. For example, several dogs to help warn and/or fight off an attacker, can of bear spray readily available (maybe velcro'd on a vest), both a small (3" ) and large (6" ) and potentially massive (like an Ontario Raider Bowie :eek:). Wearing a hat with a face or eyes on the back might help. (saw that in an earlier post and it kinda made sense) If it's a real concern of yours then you can't be too prepared. If I had all that at my disposal I think I'd feel pretty confident.

Also, if you can wade through all the dumb stuff people say in this thread, there's actually some good info...
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1097908
 
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I believe that most people that survive these attacks are just plain lucky. Even a 300lb grown man is not a challenge to a healthy lion. I will stress healthy. It seems that almost all survivors are lucky because the animal that attacked is either young,old,sick or a combination of these. Cats are extremely strong and quick. If you don't believe it try and subdue a mad house cat. I have and they are scary strong. The other factor is that cats are experts at stalking and if they are healthy and do this you won't even know what hit you until it is to late.
 
fetzer85 said:
I don't see how saying 10 deaths in 10 years discredits his statement of saying people survive cougar attacks all the time. To make that statement you'd have to tell me how many attacks happened in that 10yr period - and I'm guessing it's a lot more than 10...



Back to the question though - you want as many methods of defense as possible. For example, several dogs to help warn and/or fight off an attacker, can of bear spray readily available (maybe velcro'd on a vest), both a small (3" ) and large (6" ) and potentially massive (like an Ontario Raider Bowie :eek:). Wearing a hat with a face or eyes on the back might help. (saw that in an earlier post and it kinda made sense) If it's a real concern of yours then you can't be too prepared. If I had all that at my disposal I think I'd feel pretty confident.

Also, if you can wade through all the dumb stuff people say in this thread, there's actually some good info...
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1097908
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If I were planning on going out in the woods and playing with wild animals, I would certainly want to know how many people were killed vs how many survived because the animal got bored and left vs. how many successfully defended themselves.
I certainly wouldn't listen to some guy who says "people survive all the time".
 
http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/wildlife-nature/articles/pdfs/cougar-cougar-attack.pdf

http://igorilla.com/gorilla/animal/2002/cougar_attack_vancouver.html

The guy in the above links slit a cougars throat with a small pocket knife lol.

I would recommend a 6inch double edged blade, eg blackhawk special forces dagger

gluazXh.jpg


Even better go custom.

Choppers like bk9 / junglas are too unwieldy and slow and their points are not designed for stabbing.
 
Hi mtnlion? The blade you are describing is in my opinion a Cold Steel XL Espada. This is a folding BOWIE KNIFE and has been mentioned already but I would like to point it out again as it has several features along with the 7.5 INCH blade which make it a good fighter. The current version has a textured G-10 handle [G-10 is a very strong plastic-like material]- very well designed for fighting with both front and rear guards along with it's substantial strength, durability and resistance to "the elements" and it will be grippy under wet. Besides ergonomics the knife has a very strong and dependable lock. Folding knife locks are much discussed here and the particular one used in this knife is agreed upon as either the best or of the best yet known.

I think it is an ideal choice for your husband [get 2 of them if possible] if he is going to go the folding knife route due to it's design and it can easily be belt carried. The Cold Steel knives user base on this forum is maybe a minority and not very vocal so this could be why this very good option has not been up-played but there are many in the knife and outdoors community who will swear by their effectiveness and design.
 
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Surreal thread. As others have mentioned, most often one wont even see the cat before it attacks. They are pretty fast and efficient.

How come a firearm is not an option?

A firearm would be best.

Failing that, a Naginata:D

You dont really want to tangle with a buzzsaw - if a confrontation is unavoidable (and you cant blast the critter), you want as much distance as possible hence a pole or spear would be better than a knife.

If already jumped, that is of course a moot point. You'd want a knife in that situation, as its up close (and you say, you cant have a firearm), but depending on what kind of person gets attacked, one would be in a world of hurt.

Hope it never gets to ba an issue for neither of you guys.
 
Some nasty attacks/kills in those Mountain Lion links.

I bet this one could turn a pair of hi-viz yellow bicycle pants brown in a flash if one turns around and see a buzzsaw at speed:
Seattle resident, Jon Nostdal, 52, was attacked at about 9:30 p.m. by a cougar as he rode his bicycle from where he had dinner in Port Alice, British Columbia, on northern Vancouver Island, back to where his tugboat was moored near the town's pulp mill. Nostdal was less than 2 miles (about 3 kilometers) from town when he heard clicking sounds. He thought something was loose in his backpack, but when the clicking sound gradually became louder, Nostdal sensed that something was approaching from behind. Before he could turn around, the cougar jumped him and bit the bunched-up hood of his captain's coat, knocking him to the ground. He realized the noise had been the cat's paws on the pavement.

Daaaaaang!
 
awestib said:
I don't know too much about cougars although we do have them here too. However, attacks from a cougar sems to be even rarer than from a grizzly, so not really expected. Here in Canada, particularly in the parks, is a no firearm law. You probably get away with a rifle in backcountry but no handgun. There is a lot of evidence that common sense and bear spray is better protection against grizzly than a firearm anyway. Now to cougars, I think even with common

sense, bear spray, and the above mentioned tips (thanks for posting that btw), I would rather have a knife than none. I think at least a 6 inch blade, fighter design to stab and slash with a pointy tip but enough heft. Easily accessible! Something like this:

View attachment 398350
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Bear/ dog spray is one option(with common sense....which ain't so common).

A note on Bear spray limitations. Certain types won't work if shooting it upwards ( if you are on your back, for example), or within a meter (yard) of your target, your target will mostly get the propellant gases and not the irritant.
Some are more affected by winds, I've seen a light wind totally deflect a spray. Things will get worst if the wind direction pushes the spray back at you lol.

In a sudden attack, you don't have the time to evaluate a lot of this.... Your own weapon can turn against you.

One of the best Spray option, IMO, is one the shoots a foam as opposed to a spray. Easier to aim, less affected by distance and winds.

One more note, It is important to know what the effects are so you won't panic when infected by the spray. In a close up situation, you will get some on you. It hurts and burns your eyes (skin too), don't panic it is very temporary.
 
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