Redundancy:Caution or Paranoia?

[Fallbrook Forge]

I am absolutely immovable on this subject. 2 is 1 1 is none, I live by this. However I am in this mindset due to my profession. As far as my hiking/camping kits go, I keep a good, fullsize(1lb) survival kit in my pack that consits of top quality components. I also keep a very compact pocket kit, in my pocket. The idea behind this for me, is that if anything happens to my pack, or to me I have something to cover the essentials. Tome this is not paranoia, to me it just is what it is, to me it's being prepared.
Failure to prepare is preparing to fail

then again I may be crazy because I have a fully stocked pack in my truck and one in my wifes car for her, so take what I say with a grain of salt

 

[Gautier]

I am absolutely immovable on this subject. 2 is 1 1 is none, I live by this. However I am in this mindset due to my profession. As far as my hiking/camping kits go, I keep a good, fullsize(1lb) survival kit in my pack that consits of top quality components. I also keep a very compact pocket kit, in my pocket. The idea behind this for me, is that if anything happens to my pack, or to me I have something to cover the essentials. Tome this is not paranoia, to me it just is what it is, to me it's being prepared.
Failure to prepare is preparing to fail

then again I may be crazy because I have a fully stocked pack in my truck and one in my wifes car for her, so take what I say with a grain of salt

I heard the same "2 is 1 and 1 is none, carry 3 and you'll have one for your battle buddy" philosophy when I was enlisted. Truth is though, I rarely if ever needed more than 1, and since we were all taught the same mantra, never needed one for a buddy either. There are some exceptions though, I'll grant that. Like I said, one or two KEY components get doubled up, and that's mostly because of two reasons; 1-mechanical parts can and do fail eventually, it's just a matter of when, and 2-there are some things that are so important in certain areas that when you need them, you can't be dicking around to make, improvise, or otherwise procure them(if I knew how to "make" water I'd be tickled pink ).

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about preparation too. It's safe to say we all are here. I just think some things can be done to the point of absurdity, and redundancy is one of those things I see a lot of without any real explanations as to why. UDTJim, for example, said he had some bad experiences where fire was hard to come by and needed, so that explains why he's sure to carry a back up. Again, I say fire is one of the few places where redundancy makes sense because you get the most return for investment in my eyes.

On the other hand, I see some folks that double up on things that to me seem a little trivial. Not that I'm anyone to judge what others carry, far from it. If it makes you comfortable, you have a need for it, or you know some trick I don't, then good on ya I say. :thumbup:
Some folks may be building kits for the first time or may not get as much dirt time as they'd like and so don't really have time to evaluate everything. Instead they ask for suggestions and throw in a little of this and a little of that. Sometimes not knowing exactly why they have 3 of such-and-such, or how they ended up with them in the first place.

Guess what I'm saying over all is, PERSONALLY, I don't want or need to carry multiples of everything. I'd prefer to supplement items with skills and give my old bones a break(not literally) than carry things that don't see use 99% of the time and, for me, only serve to take up space.
If you feel the need to carry multiple items, or hell even just want to (A la Bushman and his 20 knives ) more power to you, at least ya know what works for ya.
This was mostly an exercise in thinking out loud. Maybe it will lend some creedence to some people who, like me, feel like paring down their kits and going a little more minimal. Just part of my evolution I guess, the older I get, the less I want to carry.

I just wanted to put my thought process out there and see what other folks thought. That and it's always good to get/give some constructive outside criticism for the learning process.


Gautier

 

[Bushman5]

ok, my woods walks aside where i bring lots of knives to play with or test out, i normal have 2 - 3 firesteels sprinkled around my gear and on me. I always have two blades on my body, a folder and a fixed, plus a chopper in the pack. i always have shelter in my pockets, plus a tarp in the pack. I always have FAk on my person plus one in the pack. i always have energy bars on me, plus more in the pack. That way if i get separated (has'nt happened in 30 years) form my pack, i have the basics ON me: shelter, fire making, knife, food.

yes i can make shelter without the items i have, yes i can start a fire without the things i have etc etc etc, but here on the WET coast of BC I'd rather set up shelter and fire QUICKLY.

 

[Fallbrook Forge]

Gautier- I hear what you're saying, where you never had a time where a buddy needed an extra or you did, I have, you know the pistol grips for AR type rifles that can carry an extra bolt and firing pin? Well as a Lpcl I bought one of those and an extra Milspec bolt and firing pin. All the senior guys proceeded to give me an endless hard time about this, that is until in the middle of an operation our Sqd ldrs bolt sheared a lug. Battaries is another thing I always carried a ton extra, surefire bulbs, back up iron sights, a couple of fixed blades in different areas, when I'm hiking and camping it's ways to get and store/treat water, fire, and shelter.

after all that, you have an exelent point. When I started making PSKs they were huge because I was trying to put too much in them.

 

[gadgetgeek]

I know I'm guilty of over carrying and i pay the price for it. at the same time, but its due to not quite trusting my gear. I'm working on fixing that. an RC-3 on the wishlist will replace a heavier knife that I'm less confident in. I might could pare down to just the leatherman instead of it and two or three folders. that said, I trust my two fire lighting methods, matches and lighter. my fire rods are in places that might be my only kit at times, like a parka pocket. I only carry simple compasses for the most part. I have a good baseplate compass for when I do have a map, but if I'm lost enough that a general direction isn't enough. I'm making camp. I have the worst sense of direction EVER. and I know it, so I operate within that limitation. at the same time I carry more first aid than a lot of kits I've seen here (except for some of the SAR/EMTs) because I usually am the first aid guy while out with friends, and if I hurt myself it will be bigger than a bandaid problem. so I only carry one large kit, perhaps with a supplement. I know I need to carry food as I'll freeze to death before I dehydrate unless it is really warm.
But it is a constant struggle, I realized a few days ago that my EDC pack was 20lbs. that was with a litre of water, but do I really need all of that? it remains to be seen.

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally Posted by Don Rearic
"Paranoia" would be carrying two or three sets of boots because you might lose a pair of them. Fire, compass, knives, and signals are totally different.

Can you explain this to me, please, Don?

Surely!

I quoted myself up above just to keep the flow going...

Seriously. I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything, I just don't get the analogy or see the difference. I think boots, and clothing in general are just as important as a means to make fire, a compass, knives, and signals.

You are correct! Everything you carry with you for survival purposes is incredibly important and they are all basically the equals of each other with, I think, the exception of fire. There are just situations where you will not survive without fire.

The clothes on your back are your primary means of shelter and you might even expand on that by adding a couple of things in your pack like a USGI Poncho Liner, Polar Fleece Pullover, etc., Those are just two of my favorites.

I'm talking about multiples of items that are easily lost, misplaced or damaged.

I might just be having a senior moment here and missing something, but really, if you could explain this to me a little better or elaborate on how it's different I'd appreciate it. Thanks, Don.


Gautier

Here goes the in-depth explanation.

If you take a fall, you can bust any number of things...including yourself...which is why I was sort of stunned that a few people thought real-deal rescue devices like FOX-40 whistles were "worthless" or a "joke." They weigh nothing, they take up no space and there is no substitute for an excellent rescue whistle. You could have six of the damned things as zipper pulls, in kits, pockets, you name it, they're just not an inconvenient item to carry.

So, if you fall or your pack gets chucked on the ground or over a hill or whatever, your boots won't break and your clothes won't break. Even if your clothes are damaged, most people are at least carrying a couple sewing needles and some heavy duty thread so you can repair those items if they get ripped by thorns, etc.

I have a Recta DP-2 Matchbox Compass and a Brunton Smokechaser Baseplate-type of compass. If you fall on them or they otherwise take a spill somehow, they could get busted up and become instant junk. If I fall and my USGI Lensatic gets busted, I am probably too busted to use it!

You're not likely to damage a hiking boot to the point it is worthless and you're not likely to leave it behind in camp unless you've been ingesting mushrooms you shouldn't be ingesting.

Small, easily misplaced and easily damaged items are what we are talking about and the paranoid reference was geared towards that. If you see a guy with two pairs of hiking boots strapped to his pack and he's wearing the third pair, well, that guy might be paranoid, i.e., he might have an irrational fear that he will run out of boots. That's paranoia, it's a mental illness and a cool Black Sabbath song.

Redundancy is not necessarily "Paranoia" or "Obssessive-Compulsive Disorder." I have written a lot about self-defense in the past and people that wish to ban guns and people who are vehemently opposed to self-defense with firearms up to and including the issuance of concealed carry permits oftentimes refer to defense-minded people as "paranoid" for wanting the ability to defend themselves. The father of a friend of mine is a college professor and he was, at one time...I mean, this guy was not just opposed to firearms, he hated them. I was sort of guiding his son as a shadow debate partner behind the scenes on how best to politely and effectively handle his very intelligent but incredibly irrational father.

I have used this analogy many times with people and for the honest people you might have a discussion with - it will work. His Dad was honest and while the guy didn't go out and join the NRA, he understood a bit better about self-defense realities...and the same will hold true for this conversation.

In Driver's Education, for years, and in the professional defensive driving courses I have had to attend to be cleared to drive a company vehicle, you are always told to look for your "out." You are supposed to scan the mirrors every few seconds and prepare for the possibility that someone is going to do something careless, stupid or criminal and you should be, at any given moment, looking for a way out of that situation safely. This is the way the experienced person conducts themselves when it comes to self-defense, armed or unarmed, and they are called "paranoid" because of it. If you take the rules from political demonization and apply it to driving, those people would be considered "paranoid" as well but it's really just prudent...pragmatic...it's about being safe...nothing more and nothing less.

I look at survival as I do self-defense. Hypothermia will kill you just like an armed robber will, etc.

Paranoia is irrational and illogical. Having three or four different ways to start a fire is not "paranoid" any more than having three or four compasses on your person and in packs, etc., is "paranoid."

Now, when you can combine redundant systems, all that much better! Here are two prime examples of combining redundant systems:

1. RAT Fire Kit: Misch Metal Rod for firestarting, Brunton Watchband Compass extracted from original rubber watchband "housing," fits in the cap of the storage compartment. The storage compartment can be used for tinder, a rather elaborate but micro-sized fishing kit or other items. Firestarting + Compass.

2. K & M Matchsafe (Extra Length Model): REI Storm Matches, Suunto Compass built into the end cap. Firestarting + Compass.

With the RAT Fire Kit, there is provision for a lanyard, you can gang more items together with it...a FOX-40 Whistle and a Photon Freedom Micro-lite which has an SOS Mode...it can signal at night while you are asleep, hoisting it up in a tree with some paracord, etc. Redundant...signals.

My interest does not totally lie within the realm of "The more you know, the less you need" or complaining about a non-existant weight or space issue. All of these items are very, very light and take up very little space. Some guys are acting as if they are going hiking in their drawers and cannot be bothered with a small pack or something...I just don't get it. This is something I enjoy doing, I enjoy gaming self-defense and other survival needs. To me, survival is nothing more than self-defense against nature or some other inhospitable environment.

However, even though I enjoy gaming it and it is very much a hobby that my life might depend on, I don't have a hobbyist mindset when it comes to this stuff. I'm not into overestimating myself, or being overconfident in my capabilities, etc., and I am not into underestimating what life and bad luck can throw in your face. I'm not a bean counter, I know enough about self-defense to know that statistics mean nothing when it happens to you. Control freaks and well meaning but oftentimes ignorant and/or emotional people have been trying to socially condition self-preservation instincts out of the People for a very long time and one of their prime weapons is the use of statistics. At least one person has been injured or killed by a chunk of frozen feces that fell from an airliner, I'm not talking about walking around with a helmet to protect yourself from the astronomical odds of that happening to you. But if you spend a lot of time outdoors, you could break your leg, you might get lost if you are not familiar with the area, etc., etc., ad infinitum.

Is the following too much to carry while you are hiking, camping, backwoods fishing or hunting? I just don't think so. While I generally don't carry three full-sized compasses like you will see in the pictures, it wouldn't be a weight or space problem if I chose to do so.

I carry more than enough tinder. The pill fobs are all stuffed with #0000 Steel Wool, Cottonballs or Char-cloth, I mix it up. A small muzzleloader tube has been cut down and I have one of the limited metal-bodied Spark-Lite Firestarters with a small piece of #0000 Steel Wool and a half dozen pieces of the compressed tinder that is supplied with Spark-Lite Firestarters. The unblown 2-liter bottle "Tube," what is called a "Tube Vault" on CountyComm's website has alternating sections of #0000 Steel Wool and Cottonballs with the deepest piece of Steel Wool having a pull string tied securely around it with two inner strands from ParaCord so I can pull it all out if need be. Am I ever going to need this much tinder? I don't know and I don't want to find out, it weighs nothing and takes up no space in the grand scheme of things.



[img=http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/226/mvc055xse7.th.jpg]

All of this stuff would fit into a Bianchi Gunrunner Fanny Pack (Not shown but it is the Large Size). I don't know if they make them any more but if you can get one and you like fanny/waist packs, they are definitely worth the money. I have had mine for about 17-19 years and it has hundreds of hours on it and it's just as good as new. If you can do so legally in your area, you can add a Smith & Wesson Kit Gun (.22LR) in the place where you are supposed to carry a handgun in the thing as well. Very versatile.

The pouch that is shown is the Tactical Tailor E & E Pouch we had a discussion about back in November or early December. It can hold a lot of stuff.

(You will have to wait for those pics because Image Shack apparently does not like the fact I block their stupid pop-ups which lock my computer up so the website is hanging up at the moment.)

These other pictures are the contents of the pouch on the Spec-Ops Brand Survival Sheath with an Ontario RAT-7.



[img=http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/3133/mvc043xju0.th.jpg]

To many people, this is just too much stuff to carry when you're hunting, etc. If you know that area like the back of your hand, as the old saying goes, you get a good map of the area and a compass with a backup compass and you're good to go...

 

[Don Rearic]

To give descriptors that I should have given in my above post...and to try to add the other three pictures I had taken for the post...

In the first picture in my above post are items that are usually pocket carried, etc. Left to right would be:

Ganged-together items: Silva Zipper Pull Compass, Photon Freedom Light, P-38, Swedish LMF Rod and Striker, Pill Fob full of tinder and a trit glow ring, VIC SAK Hunter on a shock corded lanyard, military trip wire below it for snares, top is ALOKSAK with Reynold's Oven Bag and Katadyn Tablets, below that Vaseline Intensive Therapy Intensive Firestarter ( ), cut down muzzleloader tube with metal bodied Spark-Lite with Spark-Lite compressed tinder, BM-Ritter Mini-RSK, K & M Matchsafe, 2-liter bottle tinder tube, USGI Lensatic and Brunton Baseplate Compass, RAT RC-3 and a Gatco Tri-Steps ceramic sharpener.

Second picture with the contents from the SpecOps sheath mini-kit...Katadyn Tablets, condom, FRAASS Metal Match, Waltham Military Button Compass, EZE-LAP "Pen" diamond sharpener, small signal mirror and paddle, small(er) cut down muzzleloader tube with #0000 Steel Wool and Cotton Balls, ACR Whistle, ANother cut down tube with fishing and sewing items, USAF two fish hooks with monofilament line wrapped around a piece of plastic and a few feet of thick brass snare wire. All of that goes in the pouch on the sheath.

Now for the other three pictures that didn't want to load a bit ago... Tactical Tailor Pouch.



Open position:



Contents and there is room for a bit more, this kit is in a state of flux at the moment until I am happy with it. Items are:

RAT Fire Kit, Brunton watchband compass inside cap, fishing items and cottonballs, cheap Trim Trio knife for a striker, another Photon, AMK Heat Sheet, FOX-40 whistle, Energizer Penlight, Recta Compass, RAT Izula, AMK signal mirror, Katadyn tablets, another Reynold's Oven Bag, magnifying lens, aluminum foil for cookin' squirrels and other rodents and fish, and the thing on the AMK Heat Sheet is going to be something I started a thread about but never got around to doing...I was going to call the thread "turning every day junk into survival items."

It is a ice scraper advertisement giveaway item for a bank. It has notches on one end and finer sized notches on the other. I wrapped about 2.5 feet of Gorilla Tape around it, then some heavy brass snare wire on the other end, wrapped it all up in braided fishing line and used a Ranger Band to secure it all nicely.



Now...ALL of this stuff weighs NOTHING in the grand scheme of things. Sure, a RAT-7 is "heavy" but we're not really concerned with that in this thread so much - knives...

The extra items are not heavy and take up no space. It's lifesaving gear, I don't mind carrying it.

This is not "EDC" stuff, this is stuff for when I am actually going out and there is a possibility I might get hurt, lost, etc. In other words, it's not "EDC," and it's not for Geocaching in the neighborhood and it's not for a walk in a state park because around here the fixed blades would be a NO-NO anyway. But when I go deer hunting at the end of this year, this will be on me. Some of it will be on the belt in the T-Tailor Pouch, some will be in the backpack, some will be in my pockets but it will all more or less be there with the possible exception of the USGI Lensatic...

In the pack for deer hunting and other trips? Contractor bags, heavy duty military quilted space blanket, not the easily ripped mylar type, electric zip-ties, USGI Poncho Liner, some type of tarp, U-DIG-IT Trowel, Silky Saw, Nalgene and Camelbak water bottles, have both! A lot of other stuff as well.

But that's way far afield, the original survival items listed, that's nothing to carry man. Some on the belt, some in the pack, some in the pockets. I don't have to worry about exceeding some list of items with a magic number I don't want to go over...I don't care about ego. If something happens, I want to get back alive.

 

[Don Rearic]

I know I'm guilty of over carrying and i pay the price for it. at the same time, but its due to not quite trusting my gear. I'm working on fixing that. an RC-3 on the wishlist will replace a heavier knife that I'm less confident in. I might could pare down to just the leatherman instead of it and two or three folders.

The RAT RC-3 weighs just about nothing and is one of the best survival knives I have ever owned. You won't be disappointed.

I have a good baseplate compass for when I do have a map, but if I'm lost enough that a general direction isn't enough. I'm making camp. I have the worst sense of direction EVER. and I know it, so I operate within that limitation.

That's honest and mature. While I'm not "Wrong-Way McNabb," I could learn a lot more about navigation, probably more than is really necessary.

...at the same time I carry more first aid than a lot of kits I've seen here (except for some of the SAR/EMTs) because I usually am the first aid guy while out with friends, and if I hurt myself it will be bigger than a bandaid problem.

My Wife cut herself rather badly the other day on a piece of broken bathroom shower tile. Single-use Batadine swabs or towelettes soaked in that are very good, coupled with a vial of DermaBond and a single-use Vaseline Pack, SteriStrips, a couple battle dressings if you are hunting and a few other, minor things, and you can handle a lot of cuts and scrapes.

But it is a constant struggle, I realized a few days ago that my EDC pack was 20lbs. that was with a litre of water, but do I really need all of that? it remains to be seen.

Yeah, 20 Lbs. of stuff for EDC might be okay for a Park Ranger or something...

 

[Gautier]

Alright, I think I see what you're saying with the boot analogy, but it's a little like apples an oranges to my eyes. I don't foresee my boots falling apart, granted, but I also don't see how I could break my knife or firesteel, short of deliberately trying to. The fact that my knife and firesteel are attached to me just as well as my boots also negates any fear I'd have of losing them.

To me, survival is nothing more than self-defense against nature or some other inhospitable environment.
...

Here, I'd have to respectfully disagree. That's kind of why I see it as somewhat paranoid. The land itself isn't out to get you. It doesn't care one way or the other if you live or die. I would much rather work smarter, not harder, and WITH the environment, not against it. In using what the environment gives me, there are a few things I don't ever have to worry about breaking, or forgetting to carry(although I wouldn't rely on these methods after a heavy dose of shrooms, just sayin').

Like I said, I'm not advocating that people drop every piece of kit, and for certain areas redundancy in some things is prudent. For example, carrying multiple water containers makes sense to me here in the desert. Carrying multiple fishing kits does not.

I definitely agree with you that carrying the basic and essential needs can take up very little space and weigh very little. Again, I'm not advising anyone to go unprepared, or even to carry less than they feel comfortable with. I just think it's wise to reevaluate your kits from time to time and determine whether or not you really need as much as you carry.

Gautier

 

[BigNate]

I have my truck bag ,martac filled with everything I think I need to survival per say for a few days or longer....but in my pocket ,I edc daily,LM wave,BRK&T mini canadian or alternate with Izula,fire steel scout,SAK "hiker", swiss army AAA led light,mini Bic in kydex pants.

.......dang , ....kydex pants. You must be a tough sob!

 

[texastonydobbs]

LOL , Something like that !

 

[siguy]

as i see it, the reason for having so much redundancy (in main pack items and a PSK) is that the PSK is supposed to be for walking away from camp or on daytrips or the like, when you don't have all of your typical gear with you.

so when you are hiking in to your main camp, say, you will have alot of redundancy, but once you have your tent, stove, firestarting gear etc setup, you will just have an empty pack and a PSK to take on dayhikes with you.

the above assumes that you don't carry redundancy in your main kit, but you get the point.

i think that it is prudent to carry items that make up for less skill, but i don't think that having two compasses is going to make up for not being able to use one. also, alot of PSK items focus more on comfort than strict survival, at least the way i see it.

like was stated in another thread, if i actually get lost and have nothing, i can just walk around a tree until morning to keep myself warm and from getting lost. i'm going to be thoroughly miserable all night and the next day when i figure out how to get out in the daylight, but i will be alive.

for me, the only thing i get really redundant about is firestarting. this allows me to have long-term firestarting capabilities as well as hopefully allow me to get fires going in really bad weather.

i used to carry two or three knives of the same size and capability...just in case. i have grown out of that in many aspects, forcing myself not to be too redundant.

overall (in my opinion) redundancy is a good thing if done right. otherwise, it just weighs you down.

 

[Bushman5]

Gautier, sure you might have yer fire steel lanyarded to your jacket or wherever, but factor in using it. One might leave it beside the fire and then forget about it (fatigue, distracted etc). Now your ten miles down the trail, getting ready to make shelter/fire because its suddenly monsooning. Hey where is my 'steel? crap.

stuff like fire steels , compasses , whistles, tinder tins are all extremely light wight items that adding a few more scattered around the pack, clothes around the neck etc , one is'nt going to notice the weight.

 

[Don Rearic]

Alright, I think I see what you're saying with the boot analogy, but it's a little like apples an oranges to my eyes.

Hey, apples and oranges are both fruit, they both have skins you have to peel, they both have seeds in them... I'm not so worried about comparisons of apples and oranges, it's Cadillacs and Pumpkins that disturb me.

I don't foresee my boots falling apart, granted, but I also don't see how I could break my knife or firesteel, short of deliberately trying to. The fact that my knife and firesteel are attached to me just as well as my boots also negates any fear I'd have of losing them.

When you say the word "paranoid," surely you actually mean what you are saying and not just tossing the word out there...just to be doing it? Like I said, "paranoid" would be tooling around in the woods with a total of three pairs of boots...

I think, for the most part, knives don't get destroyed in the field unless we deliberately set out to do so. As "Bushman5" pointed out, any number of things can happen through fatigue, etc. That's why carrying the most vital items in various forms is important. At least it is to me and a lot of other people anyway.

Here, I'd have to respectfully disagree. That's kind of why I see it as somewhat paranoid. The land itself isn't out to get you. It doesn't care one way or the other if you live or die.

That's a tad bit condescending, don't you think? I guess if I actually believed there was some psychotic bitch in a MOO-MOO wandering through the woods that was out to get me and that used to be on margarine commercials that everyone called, "Mother Nature," I'd really be "paranoid."

I don't. But the fact of the matter is, being careless, stupid, ignorant, unprepared or underprepared in the woods is every bit as deadly as being stupid, careless, ignorant, unprepared or underprepared on the street. It doesn't matter that hypothermia is not "out to get you" but the armed robber is, the result of not being able to deal with both of them is you get dead and that's the precise point. That's hardly paranoid.

Dealing with Grizzly Bears is really no different from dealing with crackheads. You have to know what they're all about but ultimately, because of bad luck, you might just end up damaged or dead. The Grizzly Bear really doesn't have anything personal against you either, you'll still be torn up or dead when s/he is done with you. Rarely eaten, however, not everyone has to be a Treadwell Snackwell.

 

[Don Rearic]

...stuff like fire steels , compasses , whistles, tinder tins are all extremely light wight items that adding a few more scattered around the pack, clothes around the neck etc , one is'nt going to notice the weight.

Absolutely correct!

 

[longbow50]

I used to carry just one knife with me when hunting. I carried it on my belt and it was in a secure sheath, It was a Puma White Hunter. One day as I was stalking a buck, I took a bad step and fell/slid and tumbled down a 40' embankment. Didn't break anything on my body, but got beat up pretty good. My bow was hung up on a root about half way down the slope and my quiver of arrows (7) scattered to the 4 directions. I was danged lucky that I didn't end up full of broadheads. Anyway, when I halfway calmed down and could grasp what had happened, I started taking physical inventory, I touched my sheath and it was empty. When I started checking gear in earnest, my lighter was cracked and fuel was gone. It was in my right front pocket. I smoked at the time and had a few strike anywhere matches in my cigg pack, which I found a little later. I wasn't carrying any other gear, because I was just a half a mile from camp (estimated). Clothes were torn up, boots were about all that didn't break as far as clothing goes. Long story made short, that's why I carry redundant gear now-a-days.

The boy scouts motto takes on a new meaning when fate steps in and makes you feel like a dummy.

 

[DaleW]

Most of my PSK is redundant, in case I lose my main pack. The truly redundant items are fire-making supplies, a tiny compass, LED light, and a small knife like an SAK Classic--- not enough to make a decent pocket full.

I see what you are getting at and I agree-- it is a fear of nature that causes people to haul too much gear. It is better to understand nature (that includes physics) and work with it. You are correct that we should evaluate all of our gear and be sure it really has a purpose. If it can't be simply justified, it is just dead weight.

 

[misanthropist]

Ah screw it, I am dumping my compass, firesteel, space blankets and knives, I'm just going to carry extra boots from now on!

I don't go crazy on redundancy but having a light layout of essentials on your person surely couldn't hurt.

 

[Don Rearic]

Out of the pictures I posted, one picture is a bunch of items that fit into a small pouch on a sheath. The other items with the green pouch are for that pouch and the other picture can be pocket or pack items. Excluding carrying the three "large" compasses, the USGI Lensatic, the Brunton and the Recta - just pick two of them - in your opinions...is this too much stuff to carry for survival purposes? I'm not talking about walking 35 feet into the woods off of a road in Anywhere-Suburbia, USA to Geocache, but to go hunting, etc. - do you think that is too much stuff?

1. It weighs just about nothing.

2. It doesn't take up much space.

3. The only thing to critique left is - you don't want to carry even this much stuff.

 

[Gautier]

I'm not suggesting that everyone abandons their lighters, matches, etc.

Like I said, I'm not advocating that people drop every piece of kit, and for certain areas redundancy in some things is prudent...

I definitely agree with you that carrying the basic and essential needs can take up very little space and weigh very little. Again, I'm not advising anyone to go unprepared, or even to carry less than they feel comfortable with. I just think it's wise to reevaluate your kits from time to time and determine whether or not you really need as much as you carry.

Gautier

Since it seems like not all the posts were read. I just wanted to reiterate the above. Some people seem to understand where I'm coming from in this respect, others it seems are taking it a little differently.
If you feel that carrying a back up to every piece of gear that you have, or even just a few pieces, that's your call. We're all differently skilled, in different places(both in our evolution of what we carry and geographically), we've all had different experiences, etc.

I just think that a little reevaluating might do some good.

Don, I don't think anything I said was condescending. Certainly wasn't intended to be, and I apologize if it sounded that way.
As for Moo-Moos and margarine commercials, I don't profess to know what you're thinking after that kind of mental image, and I'm not sure I want to.

Yes, things can break, yes things can get lost or misplaced through carelessness or fatigue, etc. but that doesn't mean that you're necessarly unprepared or underprepared. I mean, afterall, you could just as easily break or misplace your back up items.
Even without any of those things, carrying just my EDC or not, I'm comfortable in my skillset for my location that I could meet the basic needs. Some might call that unprepared or underprepared, and you're right. That's why I still carry some measure of gear, but I'm not that worried about losing it.
Skills and practice are every bit as much an important part of preparation as gear, and I'd venture to so more so. You're not going to leave behind everything you learned on accident or by the last campsite, etc. '

Like I said this was mostly an exercise in thinking out loud for me, and perhaps to get others thinking about if what they carry is really necessary. If you've come to the conclusion that it is, good. If you came to the conclusion that it may not be necessary, but you'd like to have it "just in case", great. As long as you're happy and comfortable carrying what you do, and doing what ya do, that's what it's all about. Getting out there and enjoying yourself.

Me? I've come to realize that I can get by with less and it's more enjoyable for me. I don't have to carry the extra weight, worry about packing or extra space, worry about forgetting/misplacing something, etc.


Gautier