Redundancy:Caution or Paranoia?

[Gautier]

Out of the pictures I posted, one picture is a bunch of items that fit into a small pouch on a sheath. The other items with the green pouch are for that pouch and the other picture can be pocket or pack items. Excluding carrying the three "large" compasses, the USGI Lensatic, the Brunton and the Recta - just pick two of them - in your opinions...is this too much stuff to carry for survival purposes? I'm not talking about walking 35 feet into the woods off of a road in Anywhere-Suburbia, USA to Geocache, but to go hunting, etc. - do you think that is too much stuff?

1. It weighs just about nothing.

2. It doesn't take up much space.

3. The only thing to critique left is - you don't want to carry even this much stuff.

Sorry, I somehow overlooked this one before my last post.
No, I don't think that's too much to carry. In fact, your pouch is pretty similar to what I've worked my kit down to. Something small and manageable, covering the basic needs.

The weight is negligible, as is the space. I guess it's hard to understand without knowing how much I carried before. I'll see if I can find a picture on my computer to give a better reference. Suffice to say, I shaved off at least a pound or two just getting rid of items that were redundant.

Now, that may not sound like a lot to some, and could bring us back to the argument of, "you don't want to carry even this much". Even doubling back up on the gear would only be 2-4 pounds, right? Still not a lot of weight by most people's standards. Once you factor in that I carry a bare minimum of 8lbs. of water though, and if I bring the dogs along, another 8lbs., and if it's summer, another 2-4lbs...Well, that's 20lbs. of water right there. Adding another 2-4lbs. really makes a difference you can feel at that point.

Gautier

 

[Bushman5]

meybe dont carry the dogs and let them run free?

 

[sodak]

I guess I would have to say I'm in Don Rearic's camp. Color me paranoid.

I've been caught, in my much younger days, above 14,000 ft. ill-prepared. I swore that I would never let that happen again, and I haven't. I'm perfectly content, as I get older, to hike a mile or two less, knowing that I have what I need to keep both my family and I safe in case we have to stay the night. So far, I haven't had to hike less due to weight. I do a *lot* of weight and cardio training so that I can keep up, but I'm sure that someday I'll start lagging. But I'd rather lag then freeze to death.

The same obstinancy that keeps me in shape also keeps me from caring about what anyone else else on the trail thinks of me or my gear. I've also found that losing 5 or 10 pounds off my belly does a whole lot more than losing 1 or 2 out of my gear.

 

[Don Rearic]

Gautier,

I don't know how old you are, it was an old margarine commercial, "It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature."

My comments were about the constant yammering about people being "paranoid" about something or other.

The title of the thread is, "Redundancy: Caution or Paranoia?" I think carrying two main compasses and two "lesser" or "minor" compasses, especially when a couple of them are quality combination items as I pointed out, is being cautious. Likewise, if you're carrying a couple ferrocerium rods, matches and a Spark-Lite firestarter and a lot of tinder - also cautious. No paranoia at all.

Going to REI or some online website and ordering 13 Silva Zipper Pull compasses and a similar number of LMF Swedish Ferrocerium Rods and hanging them all on a single piece of paracord and wearing that around your neck? Probably not only "paranoid" but you probably have more issues than Scientific American.

 

[Mentor]

This is definitely a thought-provoking thread.

For me, there is a constant balancing act between the desire to carry minimal gear and a respect for the value of the "in case of emergency, break glass" principle. I think it's a healthy debate to have with oneself.

Paranoia doesn't really enter into my thinking on wilderness survival. Or perhaps it does and I'm just not aware of it. My 'day job' is all about paranoia, insecurity, uncertainty, and risk - so when I get the chance to get out to the woods for a while, I try to pack responsibly but not worry about worst-case scenarios and such.

On the topic of redundancy, I recently came to the conclusion that my 'PSK' gear was a bit too mixed up with my 'wilderness EDC' gear. I found myself regularly dipping into my PSK for things like matches, my fire steel, band aids, my compass, etc. The PSK items that were not being used all the time wound up getting in the way. I decided to switch things up a bit - now, I carry a small kit for wilderness utility purposes, and keep a more thorough kit on-hand (usually in my day pack) for emergencies. This definitely means that there is some redundancy. Just about everything that is in my wilderness utility kit is duplicated in the PSK, in some fashion. But it works for me. My everyday items are easily accessible, and the other stuff doesn't way too much.

Now I just need to find a way to carry those extra pairs of boots.

All the best,

- Mike

 

[Gautier]

Gautier,

I don't know how old you are, it was an old margarine commercial, "It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature."

My comments were about the constant yammering about people being "paranoid" about something or other.

The title of the thread is, "Redundancy: Caution or Paranoia?" I think carrying two main compasses and two "lesser" or "minor" compasses, especially when a couple of them are quality combination items as I pointed out, is being cautious. Likewise, if you're carrying a couple ferrocerium rods, matches and a Spark-Lite firestarter and a lot of tinder - also cautious. No paranoia at all.

Going to REI or some online website and ordering 13 Silva Zipper Pull compasses and a similar number of LMF Swedish Ferrocerium Rods and hanging them all on a single piece of paracord and wearing that around your neck? Probably not only "paranoid" but you probably have more issues than Scientific American.

Now we're just getting into semantics and rhetoric. Aside from the thread title, I've only used the word "paranoia" twice, in context, I wouldn't exactly call that "yammering".

Main Entry: para·noia
Pronunciation: \ˌper-ə-ˈnȯi-ə, ˌpa-rə-\
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Greek, madness, from paranous demented, from para- + nous mind
Date: circa 1811
1 : a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations

Again, mother nature(both the lady from the commercials and the wilderness ) aren't out to get you. So there's no persecution there. Some people believe that it is though. Increasingly this is an attitude I see among people that aren't comfortable in the out of doors. Like they are fighting some unseen power at be.

Main Entry: 1cau·tion
Pronunciation: \ˈkȯ-shən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin caution-, cautio precaution, from cavēre to be on one's guard — more at hear
Date: 1566
1 : warning , admonishment
2 : precaution
3 : prudent forethought to minimize risk

Minimizing risk is what it's all about in terms of "survival" or wilderness preparedness. The risk that you'll be exposed to hyperthermic/hypothermic conditions, the risk of dehydration, the risk of injury, the risk of becoming lost, etc.
So, yes, carrying multiple items in various places will decrease your risk of being without one. In that same token, taking the steps to insure that you don't lose,forget, or break something would be cautious too. It works both ways.
You can lay your firesteel down and lose it, or you can make sure you return it to your sheath/pack/pouch/etc. after every use.
You can carry two firesteels or a combination of firestarting equipment spread out, and if you don't take the time or "caution" to replace them when you're done using them you could just as easily lose them as well.

Carrying two compasses is fine. It's good to have one to check the other against, and if you fall and crack one, well then Bob's your uncle, ya got another. Three? Alright, I can see breaking one and still having two to compare readings against. But if you can break 3 compasses out there in one outing...navigation is the least of what you need to work on or worry about.


I'm not saying that everyone carrying redundant gear is paranoid, far from it. I'm just saying(again) that in some cases there may be a little fear driven packing or paranoia, and that really evaluating your needs and gear is a good idea every once in a while. Every one of us has overpacked at some point or another.


Gautier

 

[Don Rearic]

Now we're just getting into semantics and rhetoric. Aside from the thread title, I've only used the word "paranoia" twice, in context, I wouldn't exactly call that "yammering".

Gautier,

I'm not just talking about you, my friend. I don't have anything against you and I rather enjoy what you post...for quite some time now. When I talk about people "yammering" about it, it's after years and years of hearing about it being misused.

As I stated earlier, if you are a good defensive driver, your actions taken out of context could be considered "paranoid." It's just caution, however.

Again, mother nature(both the lady from the commercials and the wilderness ) aren't out to get you. So there's no persecution there. Some people believe that it is though. Increasingly this is an attitude I see among people that aren't comfortable in the out of doors. Like they are fighting some unseen power at be.

Yeah, but do you really see those kinds of people in here? I don't. Occasionally some new guy will waltz in here and have some hare-brained idea or another because they don't know anything about the woods, etc. But other than that, I see a lot of thoughtful people in here. Even the people I don't generally agree with on some issues are not like that.

I have been doing two things over the last couple of years to limit the possibility of loss of items even if disoriented and confused after some fall, etc. That is drifting towards high-visibility items like choosing the yellow-bodied BM/Ritter Mini-RSK, orange Spark-Lites instead of OD Green, trying to use high-vis lanyards, etc. The other thing is tethering, i.e., "dummy" cording things to ruck pockets, etc.

I might get to the point where I get some of that high-vis blaze orange paint that they mark underground gas mains and electrical lines with and use masking tape to cover up everything except a single band on items like the K & M Matchsafe, etc.

Above and beyond everything else we have discussed in this thread is the plan and simple fact - shit happens. What "Longbow" wrote about earlier has happened to many, many people. Most people don't write about their mistakes or just plain bad luck.

 

[Fonly]

The boy scouts motto takes on a new meaning when fate steps in and makes you feel like a dummy.

can I use this as a signature?

so in the end guys what did you get out of this?

carrying a few extra compass's and fire starters are going to hurt anything?

I know that I have never had a pack heavier than 20 lbs, thats from a few days in the woods, to just going on a day hike. but thats kinda the thing, even on a day hike (now I have my essentials pack down too ten pounds) you have you "full" kit. I guess the way I see it, even though I most likly wont need anything more than minor firstaid, firestarting (even if) and a knife on a day hike, I think the old saying stands, better to have and not need, then need and not have.

Its taken me a long time to finally get to the point where Im ok going to the woods when ever with just a ten pound kit, Though my night may not be as comfy, I can deal with it.
Though when car camping and canoeing why not bring the kitchen sink?

How many of you have a knife, PSK, navagation, signaling, shelter, water and firstaid on you at all times?

Its a pain when thinking about where to place things some times, I've lost a few knives that just came out of their sheath, I dont even know how. Or how many times a little thing has fallen out when I reach in my pocket to get something else.
How can you be %100 sure that something will never leave your side?
I mean, I have never left a pack sitting on a stomp, but I have lost small things, Im humen right?..... right????

 

[Don Rearic]

so in the end guys what did you get out of this?

I think, an interesting glimpse at how language gets misused for hyperbolic rhetoric!

...carrying a few extra compass's and fire starters are going to hurt anything?

I obviously don't think so.

I know that I have never had a pack heavier than 20 lbs, thats from a few days in the woods, to just going on a day hike. but thats kinda the thing, even on a day hike (now I have my essentials pack down too ten pounds) you have you "full" kit.

I would love to have enough disposable income to go much lighter. There are sleeping bags and two-man dome tents out there that are of excellent quality and incredibly light. They are also quite expensive. If I could get all of that into a 30-40 lbs. package I would be beyond happiness. Perhaps one day.

I guess the way I see it, even though I most likly wont need anything more than minor firstaid, firestarting (even if) and a knife on a day hike, I think the old saying stands, better to have and not need, then need and not have.

That's true. It also depends on precisely where I am going and what I am doing. If I am going deer hunting in the mountains, it's quite likely that the first aid kit would be expanded to cover Quick-Clot, trauma dressings, etc.

For a simple hike in a state park where I live? Doug Ritter's little pocket survival pak will do just fine for the most part.

How many of you have a knife, PSK, navagation, signaling, shelter, water and firstaid on you at all times?

If I could live where I want to live, in the mountains, that stuff would probably be with me every day with the exception of carrying a large fixed blade into stores, etc.

Its a pain when thinking about where to place things some times, I've lost a few knives that just came out of their sheath, I dont even know how. Or how many times a little thing has fallen out when I reach in my pocket to get something else.

How can you be %100 sure that something will never leave your side?
I mean, I have never left a pack sitting on a stomp, but I have lost small things, Im humen right?..... right?

I don't know man, what's a "humen?"

I look at a lot of the compasses people carry and I carry similar items as well. If you want ONE compass that is absolutely BOMBPROOF, get a USGI Lensatic Compass. If you fall hard enough to break that thing, you're either so broken you won't be on foot any longer or you'll be dead from the fall. In either case, you won't be needing a compass at that point.

The other compasses that people generally like to carry, and they are excellent tools and I have some myself, will absolutely not take the beating that the old GI Lensatic will.

 

[ROCK6]

How many of you have a knife, PSK, navagation, signaling, shelter, water and firstaid on you at all times?

This is really a good thread and I do agree with Guatier that you should re-evaluate your PSK periodically and modify, adjust, add or delete items based on your skill sets and increased experience. I don't care for a compass in my PSK anymore because I already have two on my body and usually another in my pack. I only carry a small razor blade in my PSK...mostly because it's small and light and secondly, I always have a couple blades on me. For me, the large a PSK gets the less likely I'll alwasy have it with me. I do like a compact PSK for insurance and that's exactly what it becomes. Essential items will always be candidates for redundancy.

ROCK6