Regarding IDIOT tester.

[Ebbtide]

"Repeatable results come from controlled tests."



That was easy.

 

[Volkodlak]

Another voice of support for Noss4 here. His tests are enough "scientific" to me since he abuses knives in the same way. If some famed 300+ usd "survival" piece of steel doesn't stand up as some much cheaper knife it only means that knife ain't worth the money and that manufacturer sells mist. There is a lot of makers/manufacturers who just make quite expensive display pieces.

 

[Gator97]

Repeat after me...
"Repeatable results come from controlled tests."

Lee, how do you see repeatable and controlled testing for such a common knife task as wood whittling, boning a chicken or something like that?
For cutting rope or vegetables, with some training or practice, you can achieve stability and repeatability, it's easier to control. Bot there's other knife jobs what would be very hard or impossible to make a rig for.

 

[Bors]

"Repeatable results come from controlled tests."



That was easy.

And what would you learn that isn't already known?

When the alloy was formulated and engineered it was tested using scientific equipment. They can tell you the grain size, carbide distribution, hardness, yield point, expansion coefficient, density, wear resistance, shock resistance and much much more however, what they can't tell you is how well it will actually perform that's because there simply is no machine or computer that can emulate a human being using it.

 

[Guyon]

And what would you learn that isn't already known?

When the alloy was formulated and engineered it was tested using scientific equipment. They can tell you the grain size, carbide distribution, hardness, yield point, expansion coefficient, density, wear resistance, shock resistance and much much more however, what they can't tell you is how well it will actually perform that's because there simply is no machine or computer that can emulate a human being using it.

Where's the heat treatment in all of this?


So much depends
upon

a exceptional heat
treatment

employed by knowing
souls

who cringe at broken
knives.

 

[Ebbtide]

And what would you learn that isn't already known?

When the alloy was formulated and engineered it was tested using scientific equipment. They can tell you the grain size, carbide distribution, hardness, yield point, expansion coefficient, density, wear resistance, shock resistance and much much more however, what they can't tell you is how well it will actually perform that's because there simply is no machine or computer that can emulate a human being using it.

The heat treat makes a difference with all of the above AFAIK.

Human beings get tired, make mistakes and aren't very consistant unless highly trained.

Besides, samples of one are still samples of one.

Lets face it, Noss's tests are vicarious fun.
Everyone wants to see what it takes to break the knife in question, but doesn't want to break their own.
Vicarious fun.
Guilty pleasures.

Enjoy them for what they are

 

[Gator97]

Where's the heat treatment in all of this?

I'm pretty sure manufacturers heat treat their steel before testing
And often their guideliines don't work for knife users. If you look at CPM-10V specs it says optimal is 60 HRC. Well, Phil Wilson makes it all the way up to 64 HRC and I love how it works.

who cringe at broken knives.

Believe it or not, casual ppl break a lot of knives. Accidentally, by misuse, by ignorance and so on. And they too, cringe when that happens, sometimes bleed too...

 

[the lone gunman]

I like Noss and enjoy his tests. OK Man, Lets Continue.

 

[Bors]

Where's the heat treatment in all of this?


So much depends
upon

a exceptional heat
treatment

employed by knowing
souls

who cringe at broken
knives.

Your absolutely correct heat treatment is important !!!!


If you think about it I suppose it would be difficult to test such properties as hardness, strength, wear resistance and shock resistance if you didn't heat treat it

Again all this is done during the development phase of the alloy.

Noss's tests add in the human element to the equation. He stress the tool and it's design.

For those who think the tests are silly well I don't know a mechanic who has not doubled up on box end wrenches or added cheater bars for a little "extra" to break free a stubborn nut.

Like wise I don't know one that has not used a screw driver to open paint cans, scrape gaskets, punch holes in drywall to hang things, pop the heads off old Chevy's, adjust brakes, chip ice, and Jam flexplates and flywheels.

Most of the above far exceeds the manufacturers "designed" and "intended" use for the tool however, good tool makers understand the "human" element and design there tools accordingly. I've yet to break a good tool such as a Craftsman, Snap-on, or Proto (just to name a few).

A knife is first and foremost a "tool". And like average people I have a reasonably well stocked tool box however, I don't have "every tool for every job". What that means is that I don't always have the right tool for the job and from time to time I have to get "creative" in order to finish the job......that's life and that's why I buy good tools.



Keep the tests coming Noss :thumbup:

 

[me2]

Using a knife for its designed purpose doesnt really tell me anything except the makers were of at least average intelligence and ability. Since seeing the video of a fellow preparing chicken with a sharpened can lid, I've come to the opinion that any knife that goes out the door should be able to accomplish its stated purpose. The problem is that the knives Noss tests have a very vague stated purpose. "Tough use survival/outdoors knife" covers a lot of ground, so its valuable to know how far a knife can be pushed.

 

[jskatzoman]

Very well spoken Ebbtide

 

[Guyon]

Your absolutely correct heat treatment is important !!!!

All I meant is that one manufacturer's heat treatment might not be another's, even with the same steel. Still, I agree that each manufacturer might/should be able to provide you with information on a lot of descriptive categories, including heat treatment.

But what Ebbtide indicates about a sample of one is true. One knife failed exactly as Noss4 showed. Can you replicate it? Well... if you can match each and everything that he did to the knife. Maybe there's some value in understanding a range of abuse prior to failure??? But you'd have a hard time duplicating that exact measure of abuse shown in a video.

If the videos float your boat, great. Just don't pretend, as some do, that they are the end-all, be-all for every knife, or that they're somehow "scientific" in nature.

 

[Bors]

All I meant is that one manufacturer's heat treatment might not be another's, even with the same steel. Still, I agree that each manufacturer might/should be able to provide you with information on a lot of descriptive categories, including heat treatment.

But what Ebbtide indicates about a sample of one is true. One knife failed exactly as Noss4 showed. Can you replicate it? Well... if you can match each and everything that he did to the knife. Maybe there's some value in understanding a range of abuse prior to failure??? But you'd have a hard time duplicating that exact measure of abuse shown in a video.

If the videos float your boat, great. Just don't pretend, as some do, that they are the end-all, be-all for every knife, or that they're somehow "scientific" in nature.

They're not an end all at least not to me however, they do provide incite.
Those who feel that pure scientific data acquired through strict protocol is the only thing useful will never see anything useful in these tests. And some of them cringe at the thought of scratching a $400 knife.

 

[Broos]

Those who feel that pure scientific data acquired through strict protocol is the only thing useful

Point me out one person who said that anywhere in those threads.

What was objected to were the MANY definitive statements made by the posters in those threads. In effect taking these videos as the be-all end-all!

Believe it or not, some of us already had a pretty good idea that S30V cannot withstand being randomly smashed with a steel hammer as long as a cheap soft PRC carbon steel knife (that inspiring revelation was only made about 100 times in those threads).

and it's insight...

 

[Guyon]

They're not an end all at least not to me however, they do provide insight.
Those who feel that pure scientific data acquired through strict protocol is the only thing useful will never see anything useful in these tests. And some of them cringe at the thought of scratching a $400 knife.

Of course, the videos have value for some people, or they certainly wouldn't garner the attention they do.

I've never claimed the videos have no value at all. They just don't have that much value for me personally. Mainly because I realize that most manufacturers don't design their knives (or recommend) for folks to wail away on the spines with a two-pound, steel hammer.

I don't have much problem with scratching expensive knives.

 

[Kohai999]

Vassili likes what noss4 does, and many others do too. Fine....some like the entertainment value, and some like the information...also fine.

It behooves everyone to look at the videos, as much as they can, and make up their own minds....just because noss4 shows it on video, doesn't make it so for EVERY piece of every model he "tests"...can we all agree on that?

IF he made the "tests" MORE "scientific"...even working with the manufacturers in the cutlery industry to compromise on what he "wanted" to do, vs what the manufacturers felt were valuable tests...there might be less antagonism...and a lot more general interest amongst the "old timers".

Just my .02, continue throwing darts as before.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[3Guardsmen]

Nozh4.

Vassili likes what nozh4 does, and many others do too.

LOL Steven, It's Noss4, not Nozh4. Vassili is Nozh2002.

Regards,
3G

 

[Kohai999]

Nozh4.



LOL Steven, It's Noss4, not Nozh4. Vassili is Nozh2002.

Regards,
3G

Fixed.

STeven

 

[nozh2002]

I saw knife destruction before which was like act of vandalism - someone just broke Buck 880 to prove that it is not indestructable, but here it is really hard to blame Noss4 in irrational destruction. He apply same process to different manufacturers which give enough info to compare knifes between each other as well as see does they meet expectation or not. Scientific or not - this is again incorrect term misused a lot by people who far from science. For example in biology - which is also perfect scientific discipline they sometimes have much less "test results" then here like only one example, but it is enough (or better paleontology).

So it is up to what everyone consider acceptable statistic. But everybody has enough common sense to make conclusion what to expect from one knife or another. Everybody based on life experience may estimate range where average knife may fall from example tested by Noss4. And in many cases it is very informative.

Again many takes this too personal and get very defensive when it is affecting their favorite brand - I can say that Noss4 is very lucky that Busse shows such a good result, I has different experience with Busse fans after tested INFI edge retention. Unfortunately no one of this test critics never came up with contrexample.

For example, instead of insulting Noss4 it will be much better to do the same what he did with let say CRK knives and this way beat his results. To me it will be scientific answer instead of make all this noise about how unscientific this tests are. It is not like he tells as that this knife is good and this one is not - he provides complete disclosure in video, so you may see this and repeat it if you disagree.

This what IMHO CRK suppose to do - at least this is only what may change my opinion on Green Beret, so far I have only one example from Noss and if it is bad example - give me good one than if you believe that it was some fluctuation in quality!

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Bors]

IF he made the "tests" MORE "scientific"...even working with the manufacturers in the cutlery industry to compromise on what he "wanted" to do, vs what the manufacturers felt were valuable tests...there might be less antagonism...and a lot more general interest amongst the "old timers".

If he started to "work" with manufacturers the impartiality of the tests would disappear after all no one want's there knife to "look" bad. The inclination would be to lean in the direction of "favorable" results.


It's interesting that in order for something to be validated you have to see a bunch of guys in white lab coats with horn rim glasses, pocket protectors and laptops...


Guyon,

I've never claimed the videos have no value at all. They just don't have that much value for me personally. Mainly because I realize that most manufacturers don't design their knives (or recommend) for folks to wail away on the spines with a two-pound, steel hammer.

Your correct most manufacturers don't recommend it because in general they don't tailor there steel for shock resistance. The main concern in the market place seems to be how long will "it" hold the edge.


Nice Busse :thumbup: