Regarding IDIOT tester.

[mmmotorcycle]

mmmotorcycle: I'm still here. I'm just trying to cut down on my computer
time so I can get things done. Between knives,work and life I'm swamped.

Thanks to everyone else who commented as well.

Thanks, I can understand that. In fact, I should start doing that myself too!

 

[tholiver]

I find Noss's tests informative AND entertaining.
And Noss himself is an honest and helpful forumite.
Keep up the good work Noss!
:thumbup:

 

[Vorpal Blade]

He is doing crash-test! One of most important test in many industries - car, avia, etc... Of course it is not whole knife story - there are many other thing you may value, but it can not be rejected because crash-retention is one of this values as well as edge retention...

But no one but Noss ever did this before with scientific methodology and with video etc. In general this is most well done testing so far I see. And do not forget that this is hard work - he almost injuring himself!

Thanks, Vassili.

What he said.

Any flaws in Noss's methodology are vastly outweighed by the indisputable results of his tests which reveal huge differences in performance and durability of various knives. These differences are too big to have been caused by small testing inconsistencies.

 

[orthogonal1]

Well, not much to add except another "kudos" to Noss.

Tests of knives under similar stress are always useful to read/see.

BTW - how is the RAO working out?

 

[Gator97]

"Scientific methodology and crash-retention?" Please expound on both.

Why UR so confused? Think of a car crash test. If you're unhappy he's not using all the expensive test data equipment car makers can afford, well it's his money he's spending on all that, but if you send him some equipment to help with his tests I'm sure he'll put it to a good use.

If fact, since Noss fails to deny he's employing some form of scientific method or methodology. . . .it would be nice to have him explain it.

Fails to deny? He tests those knives according to his own scientific methodology if you will. I don't see where or how he fails with that. If you disagree or have better methodology, I'd appreciate seeing your testing videos as well. Then we can debate what's more scientific.

Anyway, point is Noss has quite consistent tests and more or less matching equipment/materials for tests. The fact that he's doing it all by hand (which is the sore spot for many) makes perfect sense. None of us can match a CATRA machine or any other industrial cuter with our own hands, thus it wouldn't give realistic info.

 

[noss4]

Thanks everyone.

GigOne: I don't need to explain something I never claimed.

orthogonal1: The RAO is holding up well. I have been using it alot lately.
It works great on the job site for cutting heavy plastic lumber banding. The steel holds it edge well.

Here are some testing photos of the RAO. They are not mine but they clearly show how durable the RAO is. http://s271.photobucket.com/albums/jj159/extremaratio-test/?start=all

 

[sodak]

Testing is hard, long, dull,repetetive, and thankless. But it is definitely worthwhile. I did some rope cutting for a while, but aggravated an old elbow injury and had to stop.

Keep it up Noss!

 

[sodak]

Noss is testing idiots now?
I thought he only did knives.

Who knew?

I thought idiots, by definition, were dull - so you can't sharpen them! Noss should stick to knives. I wouldn't know which end of the idiot you should hold against the bench stone...

 

[thombrogan]

I wouldn't know which end of the idiot you should hold against the bench stone...

Benchstone - apply directly to the forehead!

 

[thombrogan]

I should hasten to add that duct-tape will make idiots appear sharp much quicker than a benchstone to the forehead.

 

[Monkey McSteintraub]

to use scientific methodology the tester would have to test dozens of each type of knife.

No rigorous methodology is possible by the avg Joe.

You can ATTEMPT to be as scientific as possible, but all independed test will fall short.

 

[nozh2002]

I will not argue is it scientific or not. I meant more like Noss has some regular routine, some testing process and put all knives thorgh the same sequence of tests. This one is more scientific to me then - "I feel like it up to the task, after I chop cucumbers and potates in the kitchen and make myself dinner"...

So in given situation this is best what any scientist can give you. Now to make it more statistically reliable more experiments need to be executed, but this will require some supply of the knives to test.

In general there is no correct mathematical definition of what is scientific or not, it is more or less common knowledge - more like religious notion (this new Science religion which has nothing to do with scientific methodology as well as even with common sense).

I consider Noss being more scientist then someone who learn a lot, but yet did not understand basic science concepts (one thing is to memorize all laws and formulas and another thing is to discovers and write them down)

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[orthogonal1]

orthogonal1: The RAO is holding up well. I have been using it alot lately.
It works great on the job site for cutting heavy plastic lumber banding. The steel holds it edge well.

Here are some testing photos of the RAO. They are not mine but they clearly show how durable the RAO is. http://s271.photobucket.com/albums/jj159/extremaratio-test/?start=all

Thanks for the link. Digging into a concrete block. Man, that is good. Pretty soon I'll just have to give in to temptation and just buy one.

Thanks again.

 

[GigOne]

Think of a car crash test.

Gee, thanks for making the water as clear as mud.

If you're unhappy he's not using all the expensive test data equipment car makers can afford, well it's his money he's spending on all that, but if you send him some equipment to help with his tests I'm sure he'll put it to a good use.

Boy, that makes perfect sense to me !

Here's a better idea. . . .instead of sending Noss hundreds of thousands of dollars in equipment he wouldn't know how to use. . . .I can send a knife to a certified and accredited agency that performs testing using state-of-the-art equipment operated by employees who have more time in the company's bathroom than Noss has [cough]testing[cough] knives. The best part. . . .said company will provide realistic data of their testing.

I know. . . .shocking !

Fails to deny? He tests those knives according to his own scientific methodology if you will. I don't see where or how he fails with that. If you disagree or have better methodology, I'd appreciate seeing your testing videos as well. Then we can debate what's more scientific.

Anyway, point is Noss has quite consistent tests and more or less matching equipment/materials for tests. The fact that he's doing it all by hand (which is the sore spot for many) makes perfect sense. None of us can match a CATRA machine or any other industrial cuter with our own hands, thus it wouldn't give realistic info.

"His own scientific methodology ?" and the good old. . . ."unless you've posted testing videos" mentality.

First, you want me to send Noss a hefty sum of money in equipment to test knives. . . .instead of sending a knife, valued at hundred dollars, to a company that performs testing. Second, it's easy to use the term "scientific methodology" when one doesn't understand the mechanics of what the term actually means. Third, "quite consistent tests and more or less matching equipment/materials" induces too many variables, which can and does alter real test results. With the logic you've employed in this thread. . . .I'll pass on "debating" with you.

I will not argue is it scientific or not. I meant more like Noss has some regular routine, some testing process and put all knives thorgh the same sequence of tests. This one is more scientific to me then - "I feel like it up to the task, after I chop cucumbers and potates in the kitchen and make myself dinner"...

So in given situation this is best what any scientist can give you. Now to make it more statistically reliable more experiments need to be executed, but this will require some supply of the knives to test.

In general there is no correct mathematical definition of what is scientific or not, it is more or less common knowledge - more like religious notion (this new Science religion which has nothing to do with scientific methodology as well as even with common sense).

I consider Noss being more scientist then someone who learn a lot, but yet did not understand basic science concepts (one thing is to memorize all laws and formulas and another thing is to discovers and write them down)

Thanks, Vassili.

Proof that it's easy to use the term "scientific methodology" when one doesn't understand the mechanics of what the term actually means.

 

[tholiver]

You ever get the feeling Noss wouldn't get half the flack he gets if he was wearing a white labcoat with pocket protector instead of a facemask?

 

[Broos]

None of us can match a CATRA machine or any other industrial cuter with our own hands, thus it wouldn't give realistic info.

You're saying these videos provide more realistic results than CATRA testing? Realistic from what perspective?

CATRA tests will be a truer test of the steel, and so much more repeatable than what is being discussed here that it is not even worth comparing them. Not to mention the other obvious differences.

There is an old thread discussing hand testing versus machine testing that is a more scientific view of this issue. CS's objections to machine testing are discussed some in the thread, also. I will trust Wayne G. and the Professor over the mysterious science against machine testing.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478537&page=12

The videos are what they are - obviously they conform to no scientific standard for repeatability. OK. The posters here defending them, often trying to justify them on some scientific basis, tend to go overboard.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

You ever get the feeling Noss wouldn't get half the flack he gets if he was wearing a white labcoat with pocket protector instead of a facemask?

I have no problem with the tests that Noss does, so long as these tests are not said to use scientific methodology. They use Noss methodology, and there is nothing scientific about them.

 

[Bors]

You know.......

You can please some of the people some of the time and you can please all of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time.


Noss your doing a great job.....:thumbup:

 

[Vivi]

Was there ever a time that NOSS himself claimed these to be scientific tests?

 

[db]

Was there ever a time that NOSS himself claimed these to be scientific tests?

I sure hope he hasn't. Trying to make these videos into something they are not, or useing them as proof of some unrelated theory would be wrong. There has been way too much of that already by other posters and so called scientific testers.