Req for Best VALUE Product Suggestions: Stones, Diamond Plate, Strops & Emulsions

[TrumanHW]

I've found an option to buy Shapton Pro that're fractions of a stone cut-off so that they fit my Fixed Angle Sharpener.

Obviously the cheap stones my kit came with got knives pretty sharp, but not that super-sharp edge most of us buy setups to get.
And I assume it's going to take a better set of stones than the freebies my set included.

What grit Shaptons cut to fit my FAS would yield that kind of sharpness..?
- Would: 320, 1k, 2k, 5k ... be adequate..?
- or do I need 320 -- 12k ..?

How many strops do I need after..?

I'm assuming I wouldn't need Diamond Plates unless I need to re-profile knives, and then, probably only in the lower grits (220 -- 400)

I've also read people rant and rave about a COTICULE ...? What does it do that a set of Shapton Pro can't ..?

After getting to a 5k Shapton Pro ... what strop would be appropriate..?

Do you need more than one micron strop? Or can you use 1 strop with 3 micron emulsion on one side and 1 micron on the other..?

Again ... I want things that produce obvious benefits,
ideally while avoiding 2x the money on items ~10% better...

Suggestions and logic will be immensely appreciated.

Thanks!!

 

[Mr.Wizard]

You don't need to spend that kind of money for good alumina or silicon carbide stones. The "kits" from Boride Engineered Abrasives are a much higher value IMHO.

What kinds of steel will you be sharpening, and what are your goals with it? Do you want a mirror polish? A highly refined edge for 90° push cuts on phonebook paper, or something with some tooth for slicing?

 

[TrumanHW]

You don't need to spend that kind of money for good alumina or silicon carbide stones. The "kits" from Boride Engineered Abrasives are a much higher value IMHO.

What kinds of steel will you be sharpening, and what are your goals with it? Do you want a mirror polish? A highly refined edge for 90° push cuts on phonebook paper, or something with some tooth for slicing?

Good questions, thanks. Good kitchen knives, an EDC and a straight razor:

I have a couple of Kai Shun kitchen knives (my fav being the Santoku) and Cutco (not bad) &
shopping for a straight razor (used shavettes but there are things I don't like about them still)

I've found a set of those Shapton Pro from 320, 1000, 2000, and 5000 for about $100 (1" x 6") ...

Are the Boride going to be about the same and cheaper ..?

Also, after I get to about 5000 do I need a 3 micron emulsion + Nanocloth
(unloaded Nanocloth obviously) ..? Or can I go straight to 1 micron..?

And would the same equipment be adequate for a straight razor
(hopefully it only needs a strop for a while since it's new )

Again, thanks for taking an interest and thinking about my question(s).

 

[Mr.Wizard]

I don't believe the Shun knives are high vanadium (>4%) so you should not need diamond in finer grits. You may still want diamond plates in low grit (below #320) for reprofiling.

What is the steel of your EDC?

Do you want the ability to sharpen recurved blades like hawkbills?

Straight razor sharpening is a world unto itself. You don't really want to use a system like this for it even if you theoretically could, as the spine of the razor serves as it's own angle guide. You can do it with a couple of bench stones and a pasted denim strop. I used one for a while but I am too lazy and prefer a DE safety razor.

I tried a couple of Shapton Pro stones years ago and I wasn't that impressed by them. Yes you can put together a good set for less. I still need to know what you're trying to accomplish. Why do you believe you need to go finer than JIS #5000?

 

[UncleBoots]

Shapton Pro stones are nice. Fast, very splash-and-go, slow to dish. Some people are fans of the line, but dislike the 5000 for some reason. I have not used it; my allegiance is given to the Shapton Glass stones. though I have tried and do like the 1.5K and 2K from the Pro line.

I don't know for sure what Nanocloth is, but if it's like what Jende is selling, I recommend skipping it. Never could get to like the stuff.

Before I started using very fine stones for deburring, I was using either unpasted leather, or basswood pasted with 4 or 8 micron diamond.

All of this is with carbon steel knives. Stainless is trickier, both for sharpening and deburring, and Shun and Global knives can be especially tricky to sharpen, and especially hostile to the Shapton stones in particular. For those brands, the only thing I found that I liked was diamonds of various kinds, or CBN.

 

[TrumanHW]

You may want diamond plates in low grit (below #320) for reprofiling.

That's what I was kind of thinking ... or even getting a set of diamond plates in:

• 240 grit in 1in x 6in
• 400 grit in 1in x 6in
• 800 grit in 1in x 6in
• 1k grit in 1in x 6in

Which ... as a set of SATC of above are under $20 ...
I was going to include the flea-bay lnk ... but it'd delist my reply til approved
Does that obviate any need for the 320 grit Shapton Pro if I go that way..?

What is the steel of your EDC?

I actually don't know ... it's not expensive, I'd just like it to be sharp.

Do you want the ability to sharpen recurved blades like hawkbills?

Nope.

Straight razor sharpening is a world unto itself. You don't really want to use a system like this for it even if you theoretically could, as the spine of the razor serves as it's own angle guide.

Exactly ... that I understood. (Thanks for reinforcing that belief; I'd first thought it was just a feature of Japanese Kamisoris but realized most good razors and all I've seen people sharpen on YT are just laid flat relying on the integrated angle).

You can do it with a couple of bench stones and a pasted denim strop.

Right ... I figured the strops + diamond emulsion and
occasionally a polishing stone like either the Kuromaku 5000 or a Belgian COTICULE (which people rave about but I still don't understand).

Why do you believe you need to go finer than JIS #5000?

I don't actually ... but they had kits that included over 5000 and thus I was trying to see if I should get a kit or ala cart.


If I may add a question ... what micron diamond emulsion makes sense after 5000 grit Kuromaku..? 1 micron..? 4..?

Again, thank you. (Hopefully I've answered your reply questions clearly, and if not I apologize).

 

[TrumanHW]

You may want diamond plates in low grit (below #320) for reprofiling.

That's what I was kind of thinking ... or even getting a set of diamond plates in:

• 240 grit in 1in x 6in
• 400 grit in 1in x 6in
• 800 grit in 1in x 6in
• 1k grit in 1in x 6in

Which ... as a set of SATC of above are under $20 ...
Does that obviate any need for the 320 grit Shapton Pro if I go that way..?

What is the steel of your EDC?

I actually don't know ... it's not expensive, I'd just like it to be sharp.

Do you want the ability to sharpen recurved blades like hawkbills?

Nope.

Straight razor sharpening is a world unto itself. You don't really want to use a system like this for it even if you theoretically could, as the spine of the razor serves as it's own angle guide.

Exactly ... that I understood. (Thanks for reinforcing that belief; I'd first thought it was just a feature of Japanese Kamisoris but realized most good razors and all I've seen people sharpen on YT are just laid flat relying on the integrated angle).

You can do it with a couple of bench stones and a pasted denim strop.

Right ... I figured the strops + diamond emulsion and
occasionally a polishing stone like either the Kuromaku 5000 or a Belgian COTICULE (which people rave about but I still don't understand).

Why do you believe you need to go finer than JIS #5000?

I don't actually ... but they had kits that included over 5000 and thus I was trying to see if I should get a kit or ala cart.


If I may add a question ... what micron diamond emulsion makes sense after 5000 grit Kuromaku..? 1 micron..? 4..?

Again, thank you. (Hopefully I've answered your reply questions clearly, and if not I apologize).

PS, I replied earlier but it delisted my reply saying it req'd mod review (hopefully this one works)

 

[TrumanHW]

PS ... I see that the only videos for Belgian Coticule Stones are for straight razors, only.

Perhaps I'll revisit that question when the one I buy needs more than a stropping.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Some cheap diamond plates aren't worth much because the diamonds aren't bonded properly and strip off easily. I am not familiar with the ones you speak of. I would try the "CKTG Diamond Plate 3 pc Set" as I have been pleased with an older product of theirs, the discontinued #140 diamond plate.

I'll remind you of what you started this thread with:

Again ... I want things that produce obvious benefits,
ideally while avoiding 2x the money on items ~10% better...

I do not know why you are fixating on the Shapton Pro stones, as they are solidly in the "2X the money for questionable gains" category. You will find people who prefer the feel of one stone over another, but you will not get a better result from them.

Are you asking about diamond emulsion for knives or the straight razor? Why diamond over other options? Reference https://scienceofsharp.com/2016/05/29/the-pasted-strop-part-4/ and see what Mother's Mag & Aluminum polish on denim can do for you.

Still waiting for you to answer "Do you want a mirror polish? A highly refined edge for 90° push cuts on phonebook paper, or something with some tooth for slicing?"

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Unfortunately it seems that my preferred supplier of Boride Engineered Abrasives polishing stones no longer sells them individually, now requesting "Please order in box quantities of 12 stones each." Therefore these are not as economical as they used to be, unless you want a full set F320, F400, F600, F800, F1000, F1200 which is available as a kit. (F1200 is basically equivalent to Japanese #4000, FYI.)

I think now the most economical option is the "kit" but in 1/2" wide by 1/4" thick size. You could either use the full set at a time to distribute wear across them, or split it into F320, F600, F1000 and F400, F800, F1200 sets. You would have to make your own stone blanks from 1/8" * 1/2" aluminum bar stock as I haven't seen them for sale economically.

You can also buy individual mounted BORIDE stones from GritOMatic but price is about 75% of what you said you can get the Shapton set for, so not as clear a win.

 

[Cementite]

I have the "consistent angle" jigs, but consider them fiddly, fussy and a PITA to use, so I forced myself to put in the time to learn to sharpen freehand, and I'm glad I did.

If you're not sharpening wonder steels, I don't think you can get much better bang for your buck than with an 8" x 3" Norton India (AlOx) combo stone ($35 if you look around) and an 8" x 3" Norton Crystolon (SiC) combo stone (about the same price). The Crystolon is a little more friable (abrasive particles break off to expose fresh/sharp particles) than the India, which makes the India a bit more durable, but the Crystolon is a bit harder (faster cutting for harder steels). Some steels seem to like the India better, and some respond to the Crystolon better, without much rhyme or reason that I can figure out (it's kind of a trial-and-error thing). But they'll both last a looooong time, and are easy enough to flatten if they do dish out.

I have a variety of DMT diamond plates, but for ordinary kitchen knives and pretty much anything except "supersteels," the Norton oilstones are my go-to. (I also have a cheap diamond plate with 400 grit on one side and 1000 on the other, that I got on the "big internet retailer" site, and that seems to finish the knives off fairly well after using the Nortons.)

Recently picked up an 8" x 3" x 1/2" R H Preyda hard black Arkansas stone for like $55 delivered from a woodworking supplier, and I really like that a lot for some knives, but at a grit size of maybe 2000-3000, it's not really needed for most things IMHO.

 

[Blues]

Strops and emulsions: NORTHWEST_KNIFE_GUY gets my recommendation.

I'm not even going to get started on the Shaptons, various diamond hones, (plated or bonded), ceramics, etc. or I'll be here all day...

 

[Papilio]

If it is not over your budget (I don't know the prices): What about the 8k Shapton Pro instead of 5k? When you are going to buy 1k and 2k, the 8k might be the better choice. 2k and 8k are often reviewed as two of the best stones in the Shapton series.

 

[joesrx]

You can probably satisfy 99% of your sharpening with a cheap set of diamond plates and some shaptons like 500,2000 and 8000. Throw in 1 micron diamond emulsion on a strop.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

If it is not over your budget (I don't know the prices): What about the 8k Shapton Pro instead of 5k?

If you (TrumanHW) want a JIS #8000 stone give serious consideration to the Suehiro G8 from GritOMatic. I don't have it as I already bought other high-grit stones but from reviews it's what I would get if buying now. It is a silicon carbide stone so it will work on harder, more wear-resistant steels than the Shapton Pro.

Here is a full review.

Here are other comments on this stone:

- My favorite convenience set is the Zandstra Foss + Suehiro Rika G8. These two stones (3 grits) is the perfect minimalist waterstone set for all common steels. Not as forgiving on gummy stainless as the Nortons, but less prone to dishing. The G8 stone is a fantastic finishing stone, my favorite 8k, quite hard for a resinoid/ceramic stone. The Foss stone is hard on the coarse side, slightly softer on the fine. Less prone to dishing than the Norton 1k or 4k yet still very forgiving of burr formation on budget steels. These are the stones I keep on deck 24/7.

- Shapton Pro very consistent scratch pattern, hard stone, slow wearing. Not the best feedback and so-so in terms of grind speed and loading. Honestly I am not impressed by them. Although they work well enough they don't seem to excel at anything. Very convenient being splash and go and capable of making a very clean edge.

I also have a Venev 2000 grit stone and I still prefer the Suehiro G8 stone which is an 8K stone,the G8 stone is made from silicon carbide but it finish's just like an aluminum oxide stone so it will cut high carbide steels good.

I don't worry about steels that have vanadium carbides in them or any other carbides for that matter if I'm using water stones on them so long as I use diamonds or CBN stones first and move onto water stones,if you go up to the Venev 400 or even just the 800 you can still move to a finer grit water stone because your not removing much metal at this point so you don't need to worry if your cutting the carbides,when you need to cut the carbides is with your lower grit stones.

Maybe @HeavyHanded can chime in on this as well because he also really likes the G8 stone, all I can say about the G8 stone it's the best 8K stone I have ever used and it does polish your edge for sure but it also still leave's a good amount of bite to your edge as well unlike others stones that polish.

If you want a really good finishing stone look at a Suehiro G8 stone that is what I use after the Venev 1200 grit and there's really no need to strop after that stones unless your going for a true mirror polish or for extra sharpness,if you look on ebay you can get the Sue G8 stone at a very good price right Japan if you watch the different vendor's.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

T TrumanHW let me know if you decide to go with BORIDE and I'll make specific recommendations.

 

[TrumanHW]

T TrumanHW let me know if you decide to go with BORIDE and I'll make specific recommendations.

Thanks ... I would've had there been options other than their bulk-purchase requisite.

Strops and emulsions: NORTHWEST_KNIFE_GUY gets my recommendation.

I'm not even going to get started on the Shaptons, various diamond hones, (plated or bonded), ceramics, etc. or I'll be here all day...

He doesn't have a website for commerce ...
There's a northwestknives website but I don't think it's his; the only product for sharpening is a honing rod.


I really appreciate all the feedback.
I know I'm going to get flak but I already purchased some Shapton Pros about a week ago which should be here in ~1 week.

Even if I've made bad decisions, I have to try the products I've purchased before making any changes


DECISIONS I'VE YET TO MAKE

At this point I'm trying to decide which:
- stropping compound (micron) to get after 5,000 Shapton Pro.

Since people say the Shapton Pro 5000 is probably closer to ~3000 on a Naniwa Chosera
... I'm guessing maybe 3 micron ..?

I have a leather strop but it literally doesn't feel like it does ANYTHING. It just feels smooth.
So I'm thinking about getting that Jende nanocloth..? and maybe gunny juice for the diamond emulsion.

Thanks for all the time and effort You've all given me.

And of course, even if I've erred in not following your advice yet, chances are I'll probably find a way to try those suggestions later.

 

[Blues]

He doesn't have a website for commerce ...
There's a northwestknives website but I don't think it's his; the only product for sharpening is a honing rod.

Post a message on his profile page here and you can go from there via email or however you choose. You won't be disappointed. He has a wealth of knowledge, is a valued member here, and his gear is excellent.

Whatever you choose, I'm sure you won't go far wrong with any of the options you consider here.

 

[UncleBoots]

You know, it's really hard to find people out there saying "I wish I hadn't bought that Shapton stone." They make really great stones.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

I really appreciate all the feedback.
I know I'm going to get flak but I already purchased some Shapton Pros about a week ago which should be here in ~1 week.

No flak from me. If you can afford the Shapton Pros, why not! I have trouble thinking of them as a "best value" option for alumina stones given what I paid for BORIDE stones and what I see the Shaptons listed for, but you got a good deal on them and they are a very popular option.

I would actually like to try them again myself. I checked my purchase records and the only Shapton Pro I tried was #320, and it was in 2011. I cannot remember what it was like, only that I did not think it was worth the money and returned it.