Which item were you referring to ..?
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Req for Best VALUE Product Suggestions: Stones, Diamond Plate, Strops & Emulsions
- Thread starter TrumanHW
- Start date
Which item were you referring to ..?
- Joined
- May 13, 2019
- Messages
- 7,901
Sorry, the Wicked Edge design.
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2023
- Messages
- 185
I apologize in advance for this Uber long letter
. First I’d like to say, that I’m relatively new to sharpening. That said, I have used the TSPROF plates and they are alright, for what they are. Yet, they can’t compare at all to my EP diamond Matrix, for example. So far I only own the 1700 (10um) and 4k (5um), but will get more of them.
I also have the 120grit CKTG plate and it’s fine for rough work. The TSPROF plates seem not bad, for what they are. The F150 seems finer then though, even for fepa 150.
I upgraded to some Poltova CBN stones, which I ordered directly from them and they should be on their way now. I ordered their “combined” hybrid CBN stones. The bond is a metal-resin bond. Which is supposed to be less aggressive then the metallic cbn, yet still more aggressive than only resin bond stones. Although, the 20/14um size stone is resin only. So the combined bond stones I ordered are 63/50, 40/28um hybrid and 20/14um resin only. From there I jump to my matrix 1700 and 4k.I mostly use plates in 100grit 150grit and 220grit (although the 220 will get replaced by the 63/50um Poltova). Eventually I will upgrade to where all grits are stones, instead of plates.
I also ordered some CBN and Diamond paste, but still use my gunny juice. Which is the greatest diamond emulsion I ever used! Then again, I haven’t used a whole bunch yet, either
. I also ordered some Kemet diamond emulsion and can’t wait to try it out. I live in the Yukon Territory (far north), but am in a bigger town for medical at the moment, which is why I’m buying a bunch of stuff before I head home again, since it’s a lot more difficult to have stuff shipped to my PO Box up north, especially during winter when, usually, anything freezes in minutes (-40 there at the moment).
Mykhaylo, who seems to be the owner or manager of PDT, was really awesome to deal with, btw. Very professional and helpful and if he didn’t know something, he would check with his specialists at the factory. Super great guy to deal with.
I’m thinking of doing a little review about those stones and my experience with PDT, once they arrive and I used them a few times. It will obviously be through the eyes of a beginner, but I think some people might still find it interesting regardless, especially since those “combined” metal-resin hybrid stones haven’t been used much yet. Although the Hapstone premium Diamond/CBN are a hybrid metal-resin bond as well, I hear.
That said, the reason I ordered from Mykhaylo directly is cause I will be visiting my folks in Germany for 6 weeks soon, so it was a lot easier ordering directly from them.
Anyways, as mentioned above, I haven’t used many different stones, to make a good comparison yet. So please keep that in mind. The diamond I have used are KME Gold Series Diamond, DMT diafold in coarse/Fine, TSPROF plates, CKTG 120 1x6 and a 400/1000 bench stone, Hapstone CBN plates and the diamond Matrix stones. IMHO the diamond matrix are on another whole level than the rest. Since they have a relatively soft bond, they give great feedback. Which even the cbn plates can’t compare to, again imho.
The Hapstone CBN plates had some defects, but Mario from Hapstone was awesome about it and my replacements will be on the way soon. Excellent customer support!
That said, I wouldn’t order the CBN plates again and instead go with either metallic, or possibly the “combined” bond stones. Buy once cry once, I guess.
Holy, I apologize for this long message, which turned into half a letter. I just thought I’d let you know my experience a bit, since I had similar thoughts and questions as you. Especially, since you mentioned some of the stones and plates I used before and thought to let you know the experience I had with them. If you decide to go the diamond matrix stones, I think you’d be very happy with them. Same with pdt, I’d say.
The guy that developed and made them, D Diemaker , is a member here btw. Great guy, too!
Anyways, you probably have blood coming outta your ear by now, after such a long message.
One of the problems with staring at a project for so long is that it is impossible to see it anew. I do try to make it intuitive or at least intelligible. The sheer number of columns is overwhelming but I keep the major standards toward the center so that one can focus on that part and read outward only as necessary. If you have questions about it that are not addressed in the README I am here to answer them. If you have suggestions to improve the chart or the readme please let me know.
Great! I am glad you like them. I ordered a couple from the seller you referenced as at those prices it's kind of silly of me not to have any experience with them. (Thanks by the way.) This time I went with the most popular options, 1000 and 2000.
If the Shapton 320 is finer than any of the junk set it sounds again like the one I trashed. Remember how I said it seemed like they just printed numbers on them at random?
Within the realm of quality products you will find that there are very different opinions on the same item due to personal preferences, technique/skill, the steel used, the job at hand, etc. Some people's worst stone ever is an other's favorite.
For conventional abrasives (alumina, silicon carbide, etc.) the optimal bond strength depends greatly on the steel being worked and the pressure (force over area) applied. Generally speaking a harder bond works better on softer steel, and a softer bond on harder steel. This is because it is useful to have the stone slowly break down in use to expose new, sharp abrasive particles, and counter-intuitively softer steel causes faster breakdown. The individual abrasive particles embed deeper into the soft steel and experience higher forces, breaking the bond. High pressure experienced in beveling a curved blade will cause much faster breakdown than the low pressure of working a large face.
When a stone has a bond that it too hard to break down in a given task it will glaze and must be dressed to expose new abrasive grain. When the bond is too soft for the task it will wear inappropriately fast while cutting more slowly than it should, and will need frequent flattening. In time you learn to work with breakdown instead of fight it, but some prefer to walk on one side of that line, some on the other.
"Super-abrasvies" (diamond and cubic boron nitride) work a little differently as the grain take so long to blunt that they can be used almost indefinitely as in the case of plated stones—the one layer is all you get. While there are bonded diamond stones with breakdown characteristics typically they require dressing instead of being self-conditioning as that would waste expensive grain, and the ability to hold shape yet cut for a long time is a major attraction.
Personally I have mostly moved away from using very coarse stones on a guided system for several reasons. With bench stones I:
* Pay far less per volume of abrasive than stones made/cut for guided use (even at the prices you found)
* Have much more surface area so it takes far longer before needing to flatten or dress the stone
* Take longer strokes or more safely lean in with high force, making work faster
* Can do full thinning and face work that are impractical on the Edge Pro
* Don't need to tape both faces to avoid scratches from coarse mud on the blade table (Edge Pro problem)
I also use Cubitron II sandpaper and Bahco files when appropriate.
Nevertheless I understand that you want roughing/shaping stones for your guided system. I'll give my thoughts but understand that I haven't used these specific products.
I would not recommend the BORIDE T2 for roughing as I believe they will be slow. Since you have Shapton stones I do not see the point in you getting finer T2 stones either as they fall into the same category: hard, non-absorbent alumina stones. Incidentally I would not call T2 "higher quality" than CS-HD, just different. For harder steel CS-HD is better.
I like the BORIDE CS-HD and softer CS-M but for roughing these are readily consumed so I would not pay that price for them. My old source for individual stones is gone so I recommend instead you get the Congress Tools Moldmaster stones which are similar and well regarded. I recommend you buy these first, or in addition to any other roughing stones you get. You don't yet have experience with this kind of stone and I think you should gain it. They are the least expensive, and they may surprise you. The finest Moldmaster stones are reputed to be too soft (600 especially), and you already have the Shapton 320 so you don't need them anyway. These are ANSI Bonded grades if you compare with Shapton. I recommend you get the 80, 120, 150, and 240 in 1 x 1/4 x 6 size. The 320 already has a smaller particle size than the Shapton 320 but probably is not nearly as smooth in feeling. The 80 grit may be below the point of diminishing returns but it is only $5 so worth the experiment IMO. The entire set will cost about the same as one Shapton.
The "3-layer diamond bars" sound interesting, perhaps lasting longer than other plated types, yet being less expensive than bonded diamond. They are slightly narrow for roughing stones so you'll need to be careful not to slide off the tip of the knife and round it over. It looks like you'll need stone blanks to mount those yourself, like the Congress stones.
Since you like the Shapton stones it is hard to argue against them, and the 120 at least is slow breakdown so it should last a while but may need more frequent dressing. If you order a Shapton 8K or 12K perhaps combine shipping with this.
p.s. I didn't see huntyukon's post before writing this. The "3-layer" bar sounds not too impressive in his hands so I will pass on buying the 80/63 as I had proposed.
Last edited:
Awesome. Thank you (and yes, I know what you mean. I always think it's best to have beginners or novices re-explain things I've said, or, ask questions to generate responses that are accessible).
Great. The one thing I would've done differently is ordered blanks in order to mount them on aluminum. Sure, the CF should be strong, but I'm guessing that CF is harder to 'flatten' than aluminum ... as you could use a mill with a fly cutter. Obviously it'd be better if they used a surface grinder!! But they aren't going to put that kind of time and effort into a set of blanks that cost $15 for a set of 6!! (Which I found on a site).
I made a 2nd mistake thinking the 5,000 would be harder, last longer, and thus, I could get away with the 5mm thick instead of ~12mm thick ... as it means I have to adjust the HEIGHT!!! On my FAS!! You'd think the 4mm wouldn't matter ... but of course it does. I'll never make that mistake again.
No way.
- 1,000 is obviously finer than the 320
- 2,000 is almost polishing
- 5,000 absolutely is a polishing stone. Making the edge like a MIRROR.
You'll see!
That may be, but to my knowledge that'd be an even harder means for people like me to determine bc while the composite efficacy of a stone isn't stated against a universal reference ... and there's even less info about the grit independent of the bonding, and bonding independent of the grit. ;-)
Cool ... I actually already started to recognize that today, though it'll take a while to develop expertise.
Yup...I already thought about (eventually) buying full size stones if I stick with this hobby.
Goooood info. Thanks.
Good good ... I'll grab those.
Wait, bonded diamond..? I thought that was why the ones I had 'ripped'..?
(I saw your addendum on these below, don't worry)
Exactly. Here's the blanks I was mentioning before ... anything wrong with these..?
5x Aluminum Blanks (6" x 1")
(Within this one paragraph could emerge a thread larger than we've clocked thus far)
- Single Bonded..? Are more expensive..? Vs ...what? What are the qualitative categories for diamond..?
- Should I have a preference between Diamond or cBN..?
(or is it based on the actual qualitative-choices that exist from mfrs..?)
My thoughts exactly. lol. Exactly.
Yup...I'm going to dive into his post and reply there as well. He has a lot of interesting points.
BTW ... is cBN like a diamond stone..? in that it doesn't wear..? Or is it more like the aluminum oxide stones which wear ... but in which the particles are diamond-esque in hardness..?
Last edited:
I apologize in advance for this Uber long letter
That said, I have used the TSPROF plates and they are alright, for what they are. Yet, they can’t compare at all to my EP diamond Matrix, for example. So far I only own the 1700 (10um) and 4k (5um), but will get more of them.
I also have the 120grit CKTG plate and it’s fine for rough work. The TSPROF plates seem not bad, for what they are. The F150 seems finer then though, even for fepa 150.
I upgraded to some Poltova CBN stones, which I ordered directly from them and they should be on their way now. I ordered their “combined” hybrid CBN stones. The bond is a metal-resin bond. Which is supposed to be less aggressive then the metallic cbn, yet still more aggressive than only resin bond stones. Although, the 20/14um size stone is resin only. So the combined bond stones I ordered are 63/50, 40/28um hybrid and 20/14um resin only. From there I jump to my matrix 1700 and 4k.I mostly use plates in 100grit 150grit and 220grit (although the 220 will get replaced by the 63/50um Poltova). Eventually I will upgrade to where all grits are stones, instead of plates.
I also ordered some CBN and Diamond paste, but still use my gunny juice. Which is the greatest diamond emulsion I ever used! Then again, I haven’t used a whole bunch yet, either
I also ordered some Kemet diamond emulsion and can’t wait to try it out. I live in the Yukon Territory (far north), but am in a bigger town for medical at the moment, which is why I’m buying a bunch of stuff before I head home again, since it’s a lot more difficult to have stuff shipped to my PO Box up north, especially during winter when, usually, anything freezes in minutes (-40 there at the moment).
Mykhaylo, who seems to be the owner or manager of PDT, was really awesome to deal with, btw. Very professional and helpful and if he didn’t know something, he would check with his specialists at the factory. Super great guy to deal with.
I’m thinking of doing a little review about those stones and my experience with PDT, once they arrive and I used them a few times. It will obviously be through the eyes of a beginner, but I think some people might still find it interesting regardless, especially since those “combined” metal-resin hybrid stones haven’t been used much yet. Although the Hapstone premium Diamond/CBN are a hybrid metal-resin bond as well, I hear.
That said, the reason I ordered from Mykhaylo directly is cause I will be visiting my folks in Germany for 6 weeks soon, so it was a lot easier ordering directly from them.
Anyways, as mentioned above, I haven’t used many different stones, to make a good comparison yet. So please keep that in mind. The diamond I have used are KME Gold Series Diamond, DMT diafold in coarse/Fine, TSPROF plates, CKTG 120 1x6 and a 400/1000 bench stone, Hapstone CBN plates and the diamond Matrix stones. IMHO the diamond matrix are on another whole level than the rest. Since they have a relatively soft bond, they give great feedback. Which even the cbn plates can’t compare to, again imho.
The Hapstone CBN plates had some defects, but Mario from Hapstone was awesome about it and my replacements will be on the way soon. Excellent customer support!
That said, I wouldn’t order the CBN plates again and instead go with either metallic, or possibly the “combined” bond stones. Buy once cry once, I guess.
Holy, I apologize for this long message, which turned into half a letter. I just thought I’d let you know my experience a bit, since I had similar thoughts and questions as you. Especially, since you mentioned some of the stones and plates I used before and thought to let you know the experience I had with them. If you decide to go the diamond matrix stones, I think you’d be very happy with them. Same with pdt, I’d say.
The guy that developed and made them, D Diemaker , is a member here btw. Great guy, too!
Anyways, you probably have blood coming outta your ear by now, after such a long message.
Just a quick update so you know I'm going to meaningfully reply (and that I'm grateful for all of your input and it seems ... some very useful info) soon. I just happened to start on Wizard's reply first ... but I have questions for you!!
I'll be updating this reply shortly.BTW ... is cBN like a diamond stone..? in that it doesn't wear..? Or is it more like the aluminum oxide stones which wear ... but in which the particles are diamond-esque in hardness..?
How long until you get those Poltava Stones..?
When you get them I'd def. like you to rate them.
I'm guessing they'd have to be superior to Shapton Quality..?
Even still ... Why are they so pricy..?
Which of the Diamond Stones you've tried did you think were best..?
Last edited:
As a quick aside .... I picked up some M6 screws to replace the absolute GARBAGE that came with my FAS and they're a DELITE. The allen key's 'quick adjust ball fits perfectly ... the originals were loose, and as a result stripped in a matter of 10 or so knives. There's other hardware I'd update also and I'll create a report at some point.
Would anyone like to see the actual products (Shapton Pro) I received..?
Thanks
Would anyone like to see the actual products (Shapton Pro) I received..?
Thanks
- Joined
- May 13, 2019
- Messages
- 7,901
I have several knives to reprofile so I went ahead and took your advise to T TrumanHW and bought the mold master in 1/2 inch thickness. I have a good angel cube so it should be a good compliment to the alox edgpro stones and diamond plates I already have. This hobble is starting to get even more expensive.
This answer has to be quickly written as it's late and I'm tired, but we miscommunicated on a few points and I want to clear that up.
I meant the junk stones you had were like the junk stones I had! Not the Shaptons!
You paraphrased me as saying "I'd recommend Congress Tools Moldmaster stones, which are similar [to Shapton Pro] and well regarded." That's not what I meant. Rather the Moldmaster stones are similar to the BORIDE CS-HD and more readily available at a low price.
I'll have to check that I am using the right terminology. By "bonded" I meant stones that use a layer with depth and diamond particles distributed throughout, like regular abrasive stones. This in comparison to "plated" where more-or-less a single layer of diamond particles is sprinkled on the surface and held in place. I'll follow-up tomorrow.
Diamond and cBN should be effectively equivalent in manual grinding. The shape and type (e.g. mono or poly-crystalline) of diamond particles will have a larger spread in behavior than that between cBN and diamond of similar character, if I recall the literature correctly. Break-down is controlled by bond here, not the choice of diamond or cBN.
I don't see the point of careful flattening if they aren't used as tape blanks.
No, you did well. 1: A 5mm thick 5000 Shapton will last a really long time. 2: You're going to want adjust for stone thickness every time you change fine stones anyway, if you want to hit the full bevel. 3: It's better for fine stones to be thinner than coarse, rather than the other way around, as if you don't adjust the pivot height you naturally hit the edge and get a micro-bevel, rather than hitting the shoulder.
No way.
- 1,000 is obviously finer than the 320
- 2,000 is almost polishing
- 5,000 absolutely is a polishing stone. Making the edge like a MIRROR.
You'll see!
I meant the junk stones you had were like the junk stones I had! Not the Shaptons!
You paraphrased me as saying "I'd recommend Congress Tools Moldmaster stones, which are similar [to Shapton Pro] and well regarded." That's not what I meant. Rather the Moldmaster stones are similar to the BORIDE CS-HD and more readily available at a low price.
No, I use those myself. I file the pointed corners so they don't catch as I put them in and out of a storage box.
I'll have to check that I am using the right terminology. By "bonded" I meant stones that use a layer with depth and diamond particles distributed throughout, like regular abrasive stones. This in comparison to "plated" where more-or-less a single layer of diamond particles is sprinkled on the surface and held in place. I'll follow-up tomorrow.
Diamond and cBN should be effectively equivalent in manual grinding. The shape and type (e.g. mono or poly-crystalline) of diamond particles will have a larger spread in behavior than that between cBN and diamond of similar character, if I recall the literature correctly. Break-down is controlled by bond here, not the choice of diamond or cBN.
T
TrumanHW
Continuing from yesterday.
A product that can be repeatedly refreshed by dressing to expose a new layer of diamond (or cBN) should in the long run be more economical than single-layer plated superabrasives, even though they cost more up-front. To realize that economy you would of course need to use it enough that you would otherwise have burned through a large number of the plated products.
Industry guidelines for the use of cBN are for cases where the thermochemical instability of diamond is a problem, e.g. powered grinding of ferrous material. The use of cBN in manual sharpening products appears to be entirely for marketing purposes, as far as I can tell.
There are many different grades and types of diamond and cBN, and these distinctions are more important to performance and behavior, yet they are rarely specified in the end user product beyond mono or poly. Here are two dimensionless charts from Swiss supplier Van Moppes illustrating their diamond grades intended for metallic-bond and resin-bond respectively. Note the continuation through the shared grade FRD-A.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A product that can be repeatedly refreshed by dressing to expose a new layer of diamond (or cBN) should in the long run be more economical than single-layer plated superabrasives, even though they cost more up-front. To realize that economy you would of course need to use it enough that you would otherwise have burned through a large number of the plated products.
Industry guidelines for the use of cBN are for cases where the thermochemical instability of diamond is a problem, e.g. powered grinding of ferrous material. The use of cBN in manual sharpening products appears to be entirely for marketing purposes, as far as I can tell.
There are many different grades and types of diamond and cBN, and these distinctions are more important to performance and behavior, yet they are rarely specified in the end user product beyond mono or poly. Here are two dimensionless charts from Swiss supplier Van Moppes illustrating their diamond grades intended for metallic-bond and resin-bond respectively. Note the continuation through the shared grade FRD-A.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
K80Shooter
Basic Member
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2018
- Messages
- 336
Mine also. I ordered the three lower grits as I have the others.
K
K80Shooter
my stones finally shipped. How about yours?
K80Shooter
Basic Member
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2018
- Messages
- 336