Req for Best VALUE Product Suggestions: Stones, Diamond Plate, Strops & Emulsions

[joesrx]

I think for the price you’re quoting for the shaptons, it seems like a really good deal. I might skip the lower grit and get a cheap or not cheap diamond stone to re-profile.

Depending on the type of finish you want would then determine the stone selection.

Good luck in your purchase.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

You know, it's really hard to find people out there saying "I wish I hadn't bought that Shapton stone." They make really great stones.

I searched for comments on the Shapton Pro 320 specifically, wondering if I chose a poor one to try. Reviews are mixed. I cannot recall now but if I experienced either glazing or rapid wear, or worse the combination, it would explain my rejection of it. I surely would have wanted an expensive stone to both outperform the stock Edge Pro ones and simultaneously last long enough to be worth the money. At that time I may not have understood the nuance of inversely matching stone and steel hardness as I do now.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/your-opinion-about-shapton-pro-series.29615/

In the debit column, they don't have the best tactile feel (The higher grit stones feel almost slippery.), in my experience most of them have their kryptonite when it comes to steel (The 320, for example, glazes over pretty badly on stainless and semi-stainless steels. I actually find the Shapton Glass Stone series to be much more versatile, in regard to the steels they perform well on, although they do have a shorter lifespan than the Pro stones.),

https://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4384

I do not love the pro 320. It is a good stone but it is not aggressive enough for what it is. I prefer the 220 for pure metal removal.

My SP320 is on its last leg so I’m gonna need a replacement soon. It’s been great for me, but I feel like it clogs and dishes pretty quickly.

https://bushcraftusa.com/forum/threads/sharpening-stone-preferences.317245/

The Shapton Pro 320 is pretty soft, it wears pretty fast but cuts super fast, too. If I could only have a single stone though I'd pick the Naniwa Chocera/Pro 1,000.

https://www.reddit.com/r/sharpening/comments/quv07z

SP 320 is great stone but dishes very fast.

 

[UncleBoots]

You are correct. I should have qualified my generalization. Below 500 grit, the Shapton stones are indeed controversial, although even there, they have their fans. I like the 320 Glass for very light thinning work, but not for heavy thinning. I don't get along well with the 220 Glass, which loads too fast for my taste. The 120 Pro, I like quite a bit, when I am willing to tolerate the deep scratches that it, and other things in its grit range, make.

500 and above, you can find people who are not fans of the style of feedback that they give (which I really like), and some grumbling about the Shapton Pro 5000, but they are generally very highly regarded, with the Shapton Glass 500 often singled out as a must-have stone for anyone.

 

[garry3]

PS ... I see that the only videos for Belgian Coticule Stones are for straight razors, only.

Perhaps I'll revisit that question when the one I buy needs more than a stropping.

The coticules handle steel that other naturals will struggle with. The same can be said for their brother the Belgian Blue, but they are not as fast in my experience. In some circles the Belgian Blues are highly regarded for high end kitchen cutlery as a more budget friendly option.

As a generalization, fast stones on slurry, much slower and finer without. Mind the pressure and angles because they can be gouged when used with knives and tools.

I can almost guarantee you will struggle to shave off of a coticule at first, but they are also great as a prefinisher. Get a Dan's hard black to pair with it and you will be set. Don't skimp on the price of a Dan's, you've been warned.

 

[TrumanHW]

No flak from me. If you can afford the Shapton Pros, why not! I have trouble thinking of them as a "best value" option for alumina stones given what I paid for BORIDE stones and what I see the Shaptons listed for, but you got a good deal on them and they are a very popular option.

I would actually like to try them again myself. I checked my purchase records and the only Shapton Pro I tried was #320, and it was in 2011. I cannot remember what it was like, only that I did not think it was worth the money and returned it.

Thanks. The hidden cost was the extra wait for shipping (still not here yet).


Have any strop guidance..? My current thinking:

Either a 1 or 3 micron Gunny Juice diamond emulsion ...
(people seem to be really happy with GJ and Jende as runner up).

And my current leather strop feel like it isn't doing anything (with the green chromium oxide crap)
So I was thinking of using Jende NanoCloth as a strop with the GJ... after 5000 Shapton Pro..?

Think that's an okay plan..?

 

[TrumanHW]

I searched for comments on the Shapton Pro 320 specifically, wondering if I chose a poor one to try. Reviews are mixed. I cannot recall now but if I experienced either glazing or rapid wear, or worse the combination, it would explain my rejection of it. I surely would have wanted an expensive stone to both outperform the stock Edge Pro ones and simultaneously last long enough to be worth the money. At that time I may not have understood the nuance of inversely matching stone and steel hardness as I do now.

Video reviews on the The Shapton Pro suggest a comparative coarseness in Chosera (for example) that's ~40% lower.

Eg: A Shapton Pro in 5,000 produces a scratch pattern equivalent to a 3,000 in Naniwa Chosera...
And the Shapton Pro 1,000 produces a scratch pattern equivalent to ~600 in Naniwa Chosera...

So it makes sense that the 320 might be closer to a 240 from others ...

There was a video by a guy who seems knowledgeable discussing the rating systems by different companies here:

I also think his style of video is enjoyable to watch ... as I do pretty much ALL the content by Outdoors55

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Have any strop guidance..? My current thinking:

Either a 1 or 3 micron Gunny Juice diamond emulsion ...
(people seem to be really happy with GJ and Jende as runner up).

I haven't tried the boutique compounds. If something is working I tend not to replace it. The first compound I ever had success with was Mother's Mag & Aluminum Polish and it still works though I find it a bit messy. I guess I have two boutique products from HandAmerican: 0.25µ diamond suspension and 1µ boron carbide emulsion. I have several US-made universal-base industrial diamond pastes. I have a 3µ Venev crayon-type stick that is convenient for quick use as it doesn't need to dry. I think that's all.

If you aren't using a hard substrate like a tin or copper lap the pastes act a lot finer than stones of a similar median particle size. On leather 9µ diamond produces a much higher polish than a 3µ stone (F1200, JIS#4000).

You should read Todd Simpon's four part series on "the pasted strop" if you have not yet. https://scienceofsharp.com/2016/05/29/the-pasted-strop-part-4/

Regarding stones it is important to remember that the size of the constituent particles is only one factor in the surface roughness and material removal rate produced by its use. The bond plays a remarkable role, as does any treatment that fills the pores of the stone. An anecdotal example: I had a 3µ alumina stone with a vitrified bond and a hard wax fill that produced a near-mirror polish but cut very little. I then boiled it to remove much of the wax. It now cuts much faster but produces a satin finish instead.

 

[Blade Lab]

Not recommending any specific product here, but ... you don't need super high grits to get a knife SHARP. If you sharpen correctly, you can get a knife hair-whittling sharp with a 600 grit stone and a 3 micron strop. What you're doing when you go higher than that is making the bevel shinier and the edge more refined, i.e., less toothy. Very high-grit edges are amazing cutters when they're fresh off the stones, but as soon as they lose that initial bite, they generally cut less well than an edge that was finished on medium grit stones. FWIW

 

[Mr.Wizard]

There was a video by a guy who seems knowledgeable discussing the rating systems by different companies here:

I also think his style of video is enjoyable to watch ... as I do pretty much ALL the content by Outdoors55

I watched the video. This man is confusing the behavior of muddy three-body abrasion and fineness. Only the Chosera 400 and Shapton 1000 are cleanly cutting the steel; the other three have a at least a partial sand-blasted look from loose grit rolling between the stone and blade, the Chosera 1000 nearly completely so.

 

[TrumanHW]

I guess I have two boutique products from HandAmerican: 0.25µ diamond suspension and 1µ boron carbide emulsion.

So ... what is required before using 0.25 ..? Can you go straight to 0.25µm ..?
Or do you have to go progressively finer, like: 9µm, 3µm, 1µm, 0.5µm, 0.25µm ...?

I've also seen 0.025µm .... and videos seem like people go straight to these ultra small diamond emulsion without the intermediary steps.

If you aren't using a hard substrate like a tin or copper lap the pastes act a lot finer than stones of a similar median particle size. On leather 9µ diamond produces a much higher polish than a 3µ stone (F1200, JIS#4000).

Interesting ...

You should read Todd Simpson's four part series on "the pasted strop" if you have not yet. https://scienceofsharp.com/2016/05/29/the-pasted-strop-part-4/

Will do. Thx again.

 

[TrumanHW]

Not recommending any specific product here, but ... you don't need super high grits to get a knife SHARP. If you sharpen correctly, you can get a knife hair-whittling sharp with a 600 grit stone and a 3 micron strop. What you're doing when you go higher than that is making the bevel shinier and the edge more refined, i.e., less toothy. Very high-grit edges are amazing cutters when they're fresh off the stones, but as soon as they lose that initial bite, they generally cut less well than an edge that was finished on medium grit stones. FWIW

Thanks. I'll experiment & try to get a feel for the toothy vs toothless finishes. ;-)

 

[Mr.Wizard]

So ... what is required before using 0.25 ..? Can you go straight to 0.25µm ..?
Or do you have to go progressively finer, like: 9µm, 3µm, 1µm, 0.5µm, 0.25µm ...?

I've also seen 0.025µm .... and videos seem like people go straight to these ultra small diamond emulsion without the intermediary steps.

For what effect?

If you are just refining an edge you can jump from even a coarse edge to something in the micron range, rather similar many factory edges that are formed on perhaps a #220 belt and then buffed. I don't usually use more than one or two compounds in sequence. If I want more refinement I'll go through finer stones first, and sometimes then I am actually trying to add a bit of bite with the compound instead of refining.

For mirror finishing I would step through more grades, but they can behave more similarly that you might expect. For example 9µ on new leather already gives a hazy mirror if the surface is adequately prepared before, because the particles recess into the leather. To get a finish comparable to 9µ stones you would need a much harder substrate. It is still useful however because the compliant leather blends and hides imperfections from the stones. I would then follow with 3µ and 1µ. Honestly I think the Mother's polish works about as well on simple steels and I am not masochistic enough to try mirror polishing a "supersteel." S30V is the highest vanadium steel I own anyway.

I cannot remember when I last used the 0.25µ spray. I got it when I was experimenting with a straight razor. For knives I thought I got a better result from the 1µ born carbide. Also I don't care for the idea of aerosolizing tiny particles, and the lack of an oily/creamy carrier lead me to believe small particles may end up in the air in use as well. The 1µ paste already gets me as close to a true mirror as I am going to get—I nearly always find stray scratches that spoil the effect a bit. But this conversation has made me curious so I'll try it again some time.

 

[UncleBoots]

0.1 micron is nice for a super-keen finish on a straight razor. It's almost too keen, so you want to rough it up a bit with a linen strop.

Can't imagine any reason to use anything under 1 micron for a knife, though, even if mirror polishing.

 

[TrumanHW]

Honestly I think the Mother's polish works about as well on simple steels...

That's

Mother's Mag and Aluminum Polish ..?

If so ... what 'micron' would you compare it to ..? 9um ..?

And again ... are there qualitative differences between leather strops..? If so, how do I choose one!?


As far as technique ... do you make sure to get a burr with each 'grit' before moving up ..?
Or is there a grit after which it's too fine to get a burr and so you just use it consistent across the edge..?

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Yes. Mother's Mag and similar products have a range of particles sizes, but if used on a clean and soft substrate the larger particles recess. There is no way I can quantify any of this as well as Todd Simpson with his amazing electron microscopy so I'll just copy and paste his work with reference and all credit. The result from Mother's Mag & 1µm on denim look rather similar to me.

On a guided system I don't see any value in attempting to form a burr more than once. If you are using the machine properly with compensation for stone thickness you should be confident you are reaching the apex at each stage. If you have doubt you can always raise the angle slightly.

https://scienceofsharp.com/2016/05/29/the-pasted-strop-part-4/

The are two obvious questions that arise from the results above. First, why is the result so insensitive to the choice of stropping compound? and second, how is such a keen edge produced by such coarse abrasive? To provide some insight, I compared the effect of denim strops loaded with diamond abrasive ranging from 0.1 microns up to 15 microns.

Prior to performing this particular experiment, I had two experiences with very surprising results. The first involved the use of the Thiers Issard razor paste. After using the Thiers Issard pasted strop for 30 or 40 razors, the strop had become glazed and seemed to be less effective than when new. Rather than making a new strop, which is now my habit, I “re-loaded” that strop by rubbing the abrasive “crayon” lightly over the stropping area and working it in with the spine of a razor, as usual, and then stropped a C135 steel Thiers Issard razor, one that I have used regularly for several years. After 30 laps on the TI-pasted denim, I proceeded to strop the razor on the 0.25 diamond sprayed leather and the stropping both felt and sounded rough. Inspection with a loupe and feeling with my thumbpad revealed that the edge of the edge had been broken away at a relatively coarse level. So much damage had been done that reseting the bevel required a substantial amount of steel to be removed, as much as is usually required when restoring a vintage razor. SEM imaging had shown that the paste contains particles of up to 100 microns, and these are more than capable of destroying the edge of a straight razor, but had not done so prior to re-loading the strop.

SEM image of Mother’s Mag and Aluminum Polish. Particles range from sub-micron up to tens of microns in diameter.

Edge view SEM image of a straight razor honed with a Shapton 16k followed by 30 laps on denim loaded with Mother’s Mag polish.

Shapton 16k followed by 30 laps on denim loaded with 1 micron poly-diamond spray.

 

[TrumanHW]

https://scienceofsharp.com/2016/05/29/the-pasted-strop-part-4/

I've been reading through those and while they're interesting, it honestly creates more questions than answers!

Though, I do realize this is oriented towards straight razors which are slightly different in approach than kitchen knives ...
As it seemed a consensus formed around 0.5 micron stropping compound (and cheap chinese brands were better // more consistent sometimes)

However ... you seemed to have a bias towards the 3 micron (if not 9 micron) sizes ...

Seems like it's one of those things I'll need to figure out for myself with experience.
I found a 2 micron in stock ... I'll mess with that and maybe Ill try a 0.5 micron next time.

(thanks for the feedback on burr with fixed angle sharpeners).

 

[Mr.Wizard]

I've been reading through those and while they're interesting, it honestly creates more questions than answers!

Though, I do realize this is oriented towards straight razors which are slightly different in approach than kitchen knives ...

You're right, the focus on razors is something that cannot be overlooked. When you've read the articles see also the comments below them as there is important clarification sometimes, such as addressing the difference between knives and razors. (And other scienceofsharp articles focus on knives.)

A rigid paddle strop with smooth leather does not make sufficient contact with the apex of a straight razor. The kangaroo paddle I use for knives has absolutely no effect on a straight razor. A flexible paddle strop (fixed only at the ends) or one made from rough leather will work, but it will be challenging to find the correct force. A hollow ground razor will flex and lift the apex off the surface if we use more than light force. By using a hanging strip of denim and a hanging strip of leather, you can use the same pressure on both (or slightly more on the leather) and the result is quite forgiving to the various conditions.

However ... you seemed to have a bias towards the 3 micron (if not 9 micron) sizes ...

Seems like it's one of those things I'll need to figure out for myself with experience.
I found a 2 micron in stock ... I'll mess with that and maybe Ill try a 0.5 micron next time.

I did not mean to give that impression. I probably use the 1µm boron carbide most just because I have a lot of it and I dedicated a leather strop to it. I haven't used the 1µm diamond compound on leather yet so my comparisons to the BC were on paper, wood, or polyester film (worn out lapping film.) Again this conversation makes me curious, and I now want to see how the 1µ diamond is on leather.

The 9µ polishes faster so I use it for aesthetic effect: to blend bevels where I accidentally produced facetting from working the blade in sections, and/or to give a bright shine. On leather the mirror effect is good enough that I often don't bother to follow it with anything.

I am meticulous in cleaning the edge before using the leather strops since I don't want to contaminate them with stone grit. Sometimes I don't want to bother with that, or I don't want the blending effect of leather. Here I find paper tape very convenient. I can put a 1" strip of Post It Cover Up Tape on a tape blank or a dry sharpening stone, crayon on some Venev 3µ and go at it without any concern for contaminating or cutting a strop or waiting for something to dry. I don't have to wonder if my strop is getting glazed and needs a cleaning and recharge. If I am using leather and seeing stray scratches, and I wonder if they are preexisting or from the strop, a clean strip is a useful diagnostic.

I realize I forgot to answer an earlier question. I have only used one kind of leather with the compounds: "Hand American Genuine Honing Leather." As I said earlier if something is working I tend not to replace it. I don't believe it is sold now.

I think 2µ and 0.5µ diamond will be an excellent place to start, right in the sweet spot for sharpening. Try some different substrates with the 2 micron and see how it affects the result.

 

[TrumanHW]

You're right, the focus on razors is something that cannot be overlooked. When you've read the articles see also the comments below them as there is important clarification sometimes, such as addressing the difference between knives and razors. (And other scienceofsharp articles focus on knives.)






I did not mean to give that impression. I probably use the 1µm boron carbide most just because I have a lot of it and I dedicated a leather strop to it. I haven't used the 1µm diamond compound on leather yet so my comparisons to the BC were on paper, wood, or polyester film (worn out lapping film.) Again this conversation makes me curious, and I now want to see how the 1µ diamond is on leather.

The 9µ polishes faster so I use it for aesthetic effect: to blend bevels where I accidentally produced facetting from working the blade in sections, and/or to give a bright shine. On leather the mirror effect is good enough that I often don't bother to follow it with anything.

I am meticulous in cleaning the edge before using the leather strops since I don't want to contaminate them with stone grit. Sometimes I don't want to bother with that, or I don't want the blending effect of leather. Here I find paper tape very convenient. I can put a 1" strip of Post It Cover Up Tape on a tape blank or a dry sharpening stone, crayon on some Venev 3µ and go at it without any concern for contaminating or cutting a strop or waiting for something to dry. I don't have to wonder if my strop is getting glazed and needs a cleaning and recharge. If I am using leather and seeing stray scratches, and I wonder if they are preexisting or from the strop, a clean strip is a useful diagnostic.

I realize I forgot to answer an earlier question. I have only used one kind of leather with the compounds: "Hand American Genuine Honing Leather." As I said earlier if something is working I tend not to replace it. I don't believe it is sold now.

I think 2µ and 0.5µ diamond will be an excellent place to start, right in the sweet spot for sharpening. Try some different substrates with the 2 micron and see how it affects the result.

I really appreciate all the time and effort you've put in to replying to my questions and ... I'll give that a try next (0.5u)

I've tried the diamond stones I ordered, which seemed to work pretty well (240, 400, 800, 1000)
And followed it up with (the cheapo aluminum oxide I think) afterwards in 800, 1500, 2000, 3000.

It def. cuts paper ... and I tried doing just 5 on each side but it became more consistent the more I did.
I used the cheapy green crayon + a cheapy paddle-strop ... and it even shaved a little off my arm.

BUT, it doesn't initiate cuts nearly as easy as my shavette razors do
- I have to work it into the paper to start a slice
- ...and it'll get snagged in spots ...

My thoughts are that it gets snagged where it's not as sharp ..?
But when looking at it under a magnifying glass, it look v good & consistent.

Who knows ... I'll also give the 2 um strop and NanoCloth I ordered a go and see if it makes it any better.


Am I the only one who struggles to make paring knives as sharp and 'Chef knives' or Santoku knives..?

Which ... I'm thinking it doesn't hold an edge quite as well bc it's either thinner or maybe different metal..?

Thanks!!

 

[TrumanHW]

My knives behave kinda like this one (should start at ~15:15)

Where it takes a little work to start cutting (paper in my case) and will get hung up here and there:

 

[Mr.Wizard]

I really appreciate all the time and effort you've put in to replying to my questions and ... I'll give that a try next (0.5u)

You're welcome.

I've tried the diamond stones I ordered, which seemed to work pretty well (240, 400, 800, 1000)
And followed it up with (the cheapo aluminum oxide I think) afterwards in 800, 1500, 2000, 3000.

Which "cheapo" stones are these? I once got some no-name stones off ebay and they were terrible, and the grades didn't seem to mean anything like they just printed numbers randomly. Don't drive yourself crazy with those if they don't seem to work right.

With burr reduction methods and stropping on plain paper (no compound) you should be able to shave arm hair from a stone in the F320 or JIS #400 range. There's no lower (coarser) limit to that really, and I bet there are people on this forum who can shave arm hair directly off a #20 dressing stone as a party trick. However if you aren't getting an arm hair shaving edge off a #400 grit stone after stropping the edge is not being fully finished. Either you haven't fully formed the apex or you haven't deburred it satisfactorily. This can still be a "working edge" depending on what that work is but it's not showing the full potential yet.

Arm hair shaving, especially if it is "scrape" shaving, really isn't a particularly high level of performance and it shouldn't take special equipment to get there. Hanging hair tests (HHT), hair whittling, tree-topping, and comfortable face shaving are much, much harder tests to pass. To this day I have never gotten an edge on a pocket knife that I could comfortably shave my whole face with, using the same abrasives I did on a straight razor. Kudos to those who can. Incidentally I gave up using a straight because I only had one and sometimes my honing gave me a crappy edge and razor burn despite the previous honing giving a comfortable shave. Looking at Todd Simpson's tests I probably had a big foil burr I didn't know how to address, but I am too lazy now to go back to it as I like to be able to drop in a fresh 15 cent double edge blade any time I please.

I use paper for test cutting too, but know the one you use will tremendously affect the difficulty of the cut. Heavyweight copier paper is trivially easy to slice, while thinner and harder papers are more difficult. Weak but fibrous papers as much or more. Those chasing ultimate sharpness like cigarette paper, strict push cuts no less, and the late Dr. Vadim Kraichuk put together a sharpness chart using it. I use thin, glossy pages from one old catalog which keeps it consistent. It is more difficult than receipt paper but presumably not as difficult as the tracing paper shown in the video you referenced. The paper will show dull spots in the edge where it snags or drags as you slice; you can feel this even if the slice does not stall.

You can also use paper to check for slicing aggression: roll a page into a loose tube and try slicing into the side of it at an angle.

Magnification is tricky. On the one hand any magnification is useful to see more than you otherwise could. On the other even high end optical microscopes cannot fully resolve the detail of the apex as the scale is below the wavelength of visible light. Sometimes simple proxies are as good as hobby-level magnification; shining a bright point source of light directly onto the edge and looking for reflection for example. With a sufficiently bright light you can see the reflection from something much smaller than the eye can resolve by angular acuity, just as you can see light from distant stars.

If you use actual razor blades as a reference you need to be mindful of the fact that they have excellent geometry for push cutting, being very thin and having an acute edge. While thin paper helps to minimize this geometry advantage some remains, and you shouldn't be disappointed if a pocket knife does not perform similarly.

On paring knives is it the belly and tip you struggle with, or the flat as well? What is the steel of the paring knife and of the larger blade you are comparing? Soft stainless can be difficult to deburr.