Req for Best VALUE Product Suggestions: Stones, Diamond Plate, Strops & Emulsions

You're welcome.


Which "cheapo" stones are these?
These are the ones that came with my latest purchase.

The diamond stones I bought separately (The SSATC) are actually pretty good.
Way better than those that came with the Lansky IMO.

With burr reduction methods and stropping on plain paper (no compound) you should be able to shave arm hair from a stone in the F320 or JIS #400 range.

I can see how that'd be possible ... maybe by varying pressure.

Also, I noticed that the TS Prof goes "with the grain" (parallel the edge) vs fixed angle which go across it.

If I'm not mistaken ... was it you who said that across it was superior? Either way ... I use diagonal strokes that vary between each stone's grit so I can see when I've removed the previous grit's scratches.


I use paper for test cutting too, but know the one you use will tremendously affect the difficulty of the cut.
Good info.

The late Dr. Vadim Kraichuk put together a sharpness chart using it.
Very cool. I'll check this out! lol. It's amazing how deep this subject goes.

Magnification is tricky. On the one hand any magnification is useful to see more than you otherwise could. On the other even high end optical microscopes cannot fully resolve the detail of the apex as the scale is below the wavelength of visible light. Sometimes simple proxies are as good as hobby-level magnification; shining a bright point source of light directly onto the edge and looking for reflection for example. With a sufficiently bright light you can see the reflection from something much smaller than the eye can resolve by angular acuity, just as you can see light from distant stars.

I have a bunch of magnification options to include a stereo simulfocal microscope and a good camera that goes up to 40x (but I can use whichever magnification I want ... it's just a trade off between field of view vs detail). But ... I was just using a magnifying lens and or a headset which has magnification lenses.

You know ... I've considered buying something kinda like dental loupes that go over your eyes just to see how they work.

I had a business that did SMD // SMT rework (repairing electronics like motherboards, data recovery, etc).


On paring knives is it the belly and tip you struggle with, or the flat as well? What is the steel of the paring knife and of the larger blade you are comparing? Soft stainless can be difficult to deburr.

I think it's just kinda soft steel.

But since you mention it, I think it's where the rate of curve changes (approaching the tip).

I cannot believe how much you know about this topic dude.
 
These are the ones that came with my latest purchase.
Sorry, I cannot remember all the posts. Which one is that?

The diamond stones I bought separately (The SSATC) are actually pretty good.
Way better than those that came with the Lansky IMO.
You're not the only one to complain about Lansky quality. It used to be considered a solid entry level or portable option. I don't know if they stood still while everyone else evolved, or if process and QC took a nosedive.

Please let me know how long those SSATC plates last.

I can see how that'd be possible ... maybe by varying pressure.
There are range of methods for on-stone burr reduction but I think one thing they all have in common is lighter strokes.


Also, I noticed that the TS Prof goes "with the grain" (parallel the edge) vs fixed angle which go across it.
You mean the instruction is to sweep one part of the stone or plate back and forth along the edge? That's going wear the stone very unevenly. The Edge Pro Professional model has a nice feature (still under patent?) I haven't seen duplicated: the stone ramp. This combined with the stop block on the other end lets you use the full stroke of a 6" stone without having to change direction on the stone, and it extends stone life. It's not recommend to use that at finer grits but it's still there as a catch zone if you over-stroke.

Sweeping parallel to the edge has another problem: you set the scratches parallel to the edge as well. In this orientation they cannot provide tooth to the slice, and if you do not fully remove them with a finer grit they can act as stress risers that weaken the edge.

I use diagonal strokes that vary between each stone's grit so I can see when I've removed the previous grit's scratches.
You've done other polishing, eh? Or clever. That's an excellent method I wish I had thought of myself but I had to pick it up from guides. You can use the change in reflection from the change of scratch pattern see where you are hitting the bevel, like one does using Shaprie. If you set up your work lighting for this it's really apparent without having to make a close examination of the blade. This is helpful on a semi-guided system like the Edge Pro where you can and often should move the blade around during sharpening. May be helpful on clamped systems too if using stones of different thickness.

I have a bunch of magnification options to include a stereo simulfocal microscope and a good camera that goes up to 40x (but I can use whichever magnification I want ... it's just a trade off between field of view vs detail). But ... I was just using a magnifying lens and or a headset which has magnification lenses.

You know ... I've considered buying something kinda like dental loupes that go over your eyes just to see how they work.

I had a business that did SMD // SMT rework (repairing electronics like motherboards, data recovery, etc).
Nice kit. :) I wanted dental loupes until I saw the prices. I don't understand why they are custom made items; do you? Is there anything more than interpupillary distance to accommodate if the user does not need prescription glasses?


I think it's just kinda soft steel.
Try greatly increasing the sharpening angle (as much as double) and making two very light edge leading passes, alternating sides between. Then return to the original sharpening angle and make a few light of edge trailing passes. The idea is to cut off the burr, then reform the edge and clean it up a bit without forming another large burr.

But since you mention it, I think it's where the rate of curve changes (approaching the tip).
The belly is always a bit more difficult. Freehand the curvature requires a slightly peculiar translation to keep the angle unless you instead angle the stone. On a "blade table" system like the edge pro you may need change the angle of the knife on the rest to keep the edge close to perpendicular to the stone arm. I have yet to use a clamp system but I suspect you will need to control the rotation of the stone arm (about its long axis) to keep the stone stable on the edge; if you don't do this you'll probably round off tips as the stone begins to roll around the end of the blade instead of following the edge.

Another factor that changes flat to belly to is the contact pressure against the stone. The greater the curvature the higher the pressure the same force will produce, so you need to moderate your force in the belly.

I cannot believe how much you know about this topic dude.
Thank you. I actually rate my own knowledge as fairly shallow in most of this with the exception of grit classification schemes, present and historic. I have spent more hours than I can count on that topic in the creation and maintenance of the Grand Logarithmic Grit Chart so I can really geek out on that. 🤪 "Amazing how deep this subject goes"—I had no idea how deep when I began that project.
 
Sorry, I cannot remember all the posts. Which one is that?
That'd be this one which I picked up for $130 off Amazon (cheaper than they are on Alibaba even)...

Which IMO is an absolutely AMAZING value. Compared to the Lansky !???
Which is little more than 2 bent pieces of metal with wholes drilled in them!??? Is just no comparison. It is NICE!

61anAk+y2XL._AC_SL1000_.jpg


Please let me know how long those SSATC plates last.
As far as I can tell they're solid. I'd already watched reviews saying they're the best value in the ~$20 range & def. better than the Lansky plates.


There are range of methods for on-stone burr reduction but I think one thing they all have in common is lighter strokes.
Cool. That's pretty much what I did ... light strokes from edge to spine.

You mean the instruction is to sweep one part of the stone or plate back and forth along the edge?
Sorry ... not the TS-prof ... the Wicked Edge

WE_100PR1_6.2_1.png



Which is pretty dang expensive ... and for which I found something that's similar in approach for a fraction on flea-bay for under $80

s-l1600.webp
s-l1600.webp



Sweeping parallel to the edge has another problem: you set the scratches parallel to the edge as well.
In this orientation they can't provide tooth to the slice, and if you do not fully remove them with a finer grit they can act as stress risers that weaken the edge.
Yup, I thought I remembered you as having said that. ;-) Means people pay a small fortune for something inherently flawed in the Wicked Edge...


You've done other polishing, eh? Or clever. That's an excellent method I wish I had thought of myself but I had to pick it up from guides.
:) thanks ... I'd watched people use that method to sand scratches from metal & thought it'd make sense as a metric of when to progress grits.


You can use the change in reflection from the change of scratch pattern see where you are hitting the bevel, like one does using Shaprie.
Cool ... so far, I've seen some inconsistencies in the reflection which are very hard to remove however. Especially towards the tip.


I wanted dental loupes until I saw the prices. I don't understand why they are custom made items; do you? Is there anything more than interpupillary distance to accommodate if the user does not need prescription glasses?
Right..? I mean even used ones are expensive. But, optics are definitely precision ... and even though our brain compensates for many things we think we're seeing: Example, what we perceive as a straight line or edge ... say where two planes in a wall create a vertex are actually curved lines that our brain has adjusted to perceive as straight from experience ... what else could it be when it's projected upside down onto our 3D retina..? Or take lighting: Halogen, Fluorescent, etc., which we perceive as 'corrected' ... but a picture reveals it to be red or green ... bc our brain has an 'auto white balance' bias.

I'm sure they could get away with much less precision ... but knowing who their clientele is (and their massive budget) guarantees that they're going to charge as absolutely much as they can possibly get away with.


Try greatly increasing the sharpening angle (as much as double) and making two very light edge leading passes, alternating sides between. Then return to the original sharpening angle and make a few light of edge trailing passes. The idea is to cut off the burr, then reform the edge and clean it up a bit without forming another large burr.

Ahhhh. I like that. I'll try that. I also remember writing myself a note from someone who said I should make sure my stropping mimics the same angle I'd just been sharpening it at. Which ... will take some deliberate experiments, bc one is occurring on the 'device' whereas the other is in my hand. So I'll need to remove it with those last angles of sharpening in mind to reiterate them (if it was actually sound advice; I'll try it and see).


The belly is always a bit more difficult. Freehand the curvature requires a slightly peculiar translation to keep the angle unless you instead angle the stone. On a "blade table" system like the edge pro you may need change the angle of the knife on the rest to keep the edge close to perpendicular to the stone arm. I have yet to use a clamp system but I suspect you will need to control the rotation of the stone arm (about its long axis) to keep the stone stable on the edge; if you don't do this you'll probably round off tips as the stone begins to roll around the end of the blade instead of following the edge.
I'll be more attentive and see what I need to do. Thx.


Thank you. I actually rate my own knowledge as fairly shallow in most of this with the exception of grit classification schemes, present and historic. I have spent more hours than I can count on that topic in the creation and maintenance of the Grand Logarithmic Grit Chart so I can really geek out on that. 🤪 "Amazing how deep this subject goes"—I had no idea how deep when I began that project.
Had I spent a moment to think about it ... I'd have known better than to assume otherwise; anything humans can become master ... once interested in it ... they'll focus their attention and intellect on & approach excellence. Example: People have no idea just how much there is to pool. Before my eyesight worsened in my mid-forties (I'm thinking about lens replacement just to be able to play w/o glasses) I was "pretty good." And no one becomes accomplished in pool // billiards without having talent, interest, and devoting tremendous amounts of time & focus at.

Which of course is a metaphor and true for EVERYTHING humans can become interested in.



My Shaptons have cleared customs ... hopefully they'll be here earlier than it says "by" which is 7 Feb. !! HURRRRRY!!! :cool:
 
T TrumanHW

I have not used the Wicked Edge and I am not going to disparage it. I do get the impression it is more suited to pocket and hunting knives than kitchen knives. I have seen different techniques with it including up-down scrubbing strokes rather than sweeping along the edge.

The included stones with the Amazon sharpener look suspiciously similar to the ones I threw out. I bet you'll be amazed at the difference when you get the Shaptons.

If anyone has doubt of the pre-processing happening in the eye and brain (it literally starts in the retina itself) I like to show them this illusion. There is of course a whole lot more going on but that one is really hard to ignore.

Are you going to get strops for the guided system too, or only freehand? I think there is value in angle control even with strops. You would also get the same stroke path as your last stone. I don't try to match the angle of the last stone strokes I made however, I just carefully stroke away from the edge so as not to cut the leather. I am always trying to learn so if you find it to be important please let me know.
 
The included stones with the Amazon sharpener look suspiciously similar to the ones I threw out. I bet you'll be amazed at the difference when you get the Shaptons.
EXACTLY. TRASH!! :)

Check out his "paper testing" ... video should default to 14:30 ... if not, that's where he begins testing them..
He's able to push cut with it. Mine will do that but you can hear that it's on the verge of tearing.
Still ... my edge looks pretty damned good. It's hard to see the 'problem' with only a magnifying glass
I'm guessing (as you said also) the stones and good stropping compound will make a big difference.
For now? I just have the diamonds (good for profiling) and that crappy crayon // chromium oxide).


I'd be happy with that sharpness and consistency across the edge.


If anyone has doubt of the pre-processing happening in the eye and brain (it literally starts in the retina itself) I like to show them this illusion. There is of course a whole lot more going on but that one is really hard to ignore.
I'm familiar with that one ... A and B are the same color, right?

Have you seen the spinning dancer..? And gotten her to 'flip' directions..?


Are you going to get strops for the guided system too, or only freehand?

Yup. I got the 1 x 6in Jende nanocloth and 2 micron diamond emulsion...
 
Curious ... what's the cheapest
... Diamond Lapping Plate..?
I could get by on using to re-dress my Shaptons periodically..?


Got the Jende diamond emulsion and the nanocloth.

I used the excess on the crappy leather paddle-strop (it dried fast) & it was better than w/o.
(but who knows -- maybe it was placebo! ... but I think it was def better than w/o)
Haven't used the NanoCloth yet (just 'loaded' it ~3x)
... how do you know when it's sufficiently loaded !?
 
For coarse stones I highly recommend loose grit lapping as it gives them the best bite.

My sample of plastic monstrosity that is the "SCOTTCHEN Diamond Flattening Stone Lapping Plate Double-sided Extra Large 10x3 inch (120&180) Grit" is flatter than my sample of the solid steel DMT Dia-Sharp Extra Coarse, and I haven't worn it out yet. Take that as you will.
 
For coarse stones I highly recommend loose grit lapping as it gives them the best bite.
Huh...? What kind of stone would be an example of this..?
By 'highly recommend' ... you mean 'superior to diamond stones' ..?




The 1,000 on the cheap diamond stones already has a "rip"
(becoming just flat aluminum in an odd shaped section).
They're still useful; I may replace them though.

The Jende 1 x 6 NanoCloth is a pointless size bc a strop can't go back + forth (for obvious reasons).
Jende implies FAS use, as it has an AL backing with the angle to be held in the spring loaded arm.
Better to spend extra & get the full sized version.

Had I spent more time researching, I'd've found the below product links
Some I think you recommended, others I'd like your feedback as to quality.

PS,
- what's the highest grit rating that diamond stones go up to?

Reason for going 'with the grain' of the cutting edge: Ensure even material removal.
FAS going against the grain has no mechanism to avoid uneven material removal. Whether from time-variations or pressure.




I'd appreciate feedback on the value of these products:
- Inexpensive Diamond stones - 5x @ $80: https://bit.ly/3Onrvmk
- Naniwa Chosera 4x @ 6mm = $90: https://bit.ly/47UhOCE
- Boride T2 5x set (150-1200) 12mm $90: https://bit.ly/T2-Boride-Set-of-5
- Shapton Pro (Kuromaku) @ 5mm @$330: https://bit.ly/Shapton-Pro-Kuromaku-Set-of-5



Very cool reference (actual live page provides more functionality): https://bit.ly/Logarithmic-Grit-Chart

glgc.webp
 
PPS:

When you mentioned "more expensive than they're worth" I hadn't seen examples like this:

The Shapton Pros are like $52 each for 6" x 1" x 0.25"

vs T2 Boride are, 6" x 1" x 0.25" ... ~ $18 ea

vs Naniwa Chosera, 6" x 1" x 0.25" ... also ~$18 ea
Those Shapton Pro 6"x1" prices are a little higher than what Amazon sells the full-sized 8 x 2 3/4" stones for.
 
Those Shapton Pro 6"x1" prices are a little higher than what Amazon sells the full-sized 8 x 2 3/4" stones for.

Exactly. Not that I could mount the full sized ones on a backing ... nor would backings be free.

However ... (though I posted it awhile ago) I did buy better (thicker) for a pretty good price
They just aren't here yet, and they'll have "carbon fiber" backing (I'd've preferred AL)


Shaptop Pro: 320 • 1,000 • 2,000 • 5,000
6" x 1" x 0.8" ,(not the 5mm)
$115 Total
(after Tax + Shipping)



...I've just had to wait about 20 days to get it (and I'm anxious).

I also picked up at:

Suehiro Diamond Combo
Dressing Stone + Lapping Stone (150 + 500)

Model: HW5G-DADA
 
IF I'm happy with what I get ... I might pick up the Naniwa Chosera (same seller) ...

Getting some of the grits that are similar (numerically) as they'll be finer.


That said, I'm still thinking of getting some diamond stones to do the roughing passes.
 
Huh...? What kind of stone would be an example of this..?
By 'highly recommend' ... you mean 'superior to diamond stones' ..?

All the BORIDE stones up to about F600, any hard oil stone or sintered ceramic, BYXCO Arctic Fox & Bull Thistle, Zandstra FOSS 7205... that's about all I've got.
Yes, superior to dressing on electroplated diamond.

The Jende 1 x 6 NanoCloth is a pointless size bc a strop can't go back + forth (for obvious reasons).
Jende implies FAS use, as it has an AL backing with the angle to be held in the spring loaded arm.
Better to spend extra & get the full sized version.

I am not sure what you mean. I use 1"x6" strops without issue.


Had I spent more time researching, I'd've found the below product links
Some I think you recommended, others I'd like your feedback as to quality.
I'll comment on these but you're not supposed to embed vendor links on this forum. You can refer to them by name, even obfuscated links like "bit.ly 3Onrvmk" I believe, but not actual working links.

PS,
- what's the highest grit rating that diamond stones go up to?
The finest grades I can recall are the DMT EE and Venev each at 3µ, but I wouldn't bet against the 5µ Diamond Matrix stone producing a higher surface finish than either as bond makes a huge difference.

Reason for going 'with the grain' of the cutting edge: Ensure even material removal.
FAS going against the grain has no mechanism to avoid uneven material removal. Whether from time-variations or pressure.
I am uncertain about the context of this statement, but if I understand it I will suggest that the ability to localize and vary the rate of steel removal is one of the strengths of an Edge Pro style system. The narrow down-facing stone lets you see the work as it progresses. You can of course mess it up too, but that's part and parcel of having control.

I'd appreciate feedback on the value of these products:
I have not used the TS Prof diamond plates, or the Chosera stones. I do have a Naniwa "Snow White 8000" that is reputed to be similar to Chosera but very fine stones are used differently from coarse and middle ones.

Boride T2 in the F320 grit is a good hard-bond, dense stone. As you already have Shapton stones (or on the way) which are also hard bond alumina stones (or at least harder than many other Japanese stones) I don't know if you would want to double up on those.

Again the only Shapton Pro I have used is the 320 and it did not impress me. I have since learned it may be one of the weakest stones in the line-up. (The 5000 gets disparaged some too.) I would still like to try these, but with the EP stones I already have it is more likely to be in the form of a Shapton Pro 2000 bench stone.

Very cool reference (actual live page provides more functionality):
I am glad you like my chart. Incidentally I sell prints and accept donations, should you wish to support its continued development.
 
I am glad you like my chart. Incidentally I sell prints and accept donations, should you wish to support its continued development.

WHOA!!! YOU MADE THAT !!????? Freaking AWESOME dude. You should be very, very proud.

I looked over the genesis of revisions ... that is just a monstrous project. Honestly, it's a bit over my head without more research.


If you'd like ... after I get caught up on sharpening projects, if you'll handle the shipping & don't need them too long, I'd consider mailing them for you to assess onto your list (if useful).

I'll reply to the rest of your comments afterwards (need to get some zzs).
 
WHOA!!! YOU MADE THAT !!????? Freaking AWESOME dude. You should be very, very proud.

I looked over the genesis of revisions ... that is just a monstrous project. Honestly, it's a bit over my head without more research.
I sincerely appreciate that. It has indeed been a long process, really hard even to explain. It is very difficult to research something like this when you don't actually know what you're looking for, and when so many sources are wrong, conflicting, or obfuscated. Most official standards are paywalled and it is frustrating to buy a standard document only to learn that it contains no new information. Automatic translations of technical documents in foreign languages are lacking, and Google Image Translate was not available for much of the time I have worked on this so many times I could not get an automatic translation at all. Non-standardized products are equally frustrating for different reasons. Various product catalogs contradict each other, manufacturers are frequently unresponsive, and responses that I do get are too often unhelpful, illogical, or slightly combative. You wouldn't think median abrasive particle size was a trade secret, would you? Or that a representative would have no clue what goes into their products, or would simply read numbers off an incorrect chart and clam up when pressed.

I also appreciate the offer to lend me sharpening supplies, but the chart is not based in observed performance (material removal rate, finished surface roughness) as explained in the readme. Thank you nevertheless.


Very cool! How could I buy some and donate?
My email address is on every edition of the chart. Thanks for your interest.
 
I sincerely appreciate that.
It's well deserved. I've made far smaller projects, like lists of codes for Terminal (Linux // computer) and that was harder than it looks. Thinking up a schema to orient the data and ensure it's all reconciled ... and even scientifically accurate is an epic project.

It has indeed been a long process, really hard even to explain.

A YT video explaining examples of the most common stones listed might help.
I know I'd need to put some work into understanding it before I could use it.
I'm guessing you had to choose between intuitiveness to layman (me) & accuracy for experts.

I suggested it to you (unironically) thinking "he might be familiar with enough items on it to read it."



Anyway, back to this lamens world:

Got the Shapton Pro I ordered and they are very good. INFINITELY different than the crap I'd used previously ...
Way, WAY finer than anything I'd used also. The Shapton Pro in 320 is finer than the finest stone I'd used.

I definitely need to replace those garbage (you warned me) diamond stones which served as my profiling grits.


So ... what do I do!??
- Get diamond stones..? (They seem to remove material v well)
- Or can a low grit Boride product rival diamond stones at profiling..?


PROFILING PRODUCT CHOICES:
(I'm open to others, but these are within my budget)

DIAMOND OPTIONS:

- 3-Layer Diamond Coated Bars For Reprofiling (4 pcs) -- $99 from TS Prof
  • 100/80 equals FEPA F 150
  • 80/63 equals FEPA F 200
  • 50/40 equals FEPA F 240
  • 28/20 equals FEPA F 360

- Set Of Diamond Plates On Blanks (5 Pcs) -- $80 (also at TS Prof)
  • 150-1000 Grit

Which I presume both of those are in a higher quality bracket than the recommendation you made on the first page:

CKTG Diamond Plate 3 pc Set For Edge Pro​

... one of which is claimed to be 1,000 grit


AL-OXIDE OPTIONS:

I could just order the Shapton Pro in lower grits
(like 120 + 220) .... I'm just worried they'd still not be "profiling" stones.



- Boride T2 Stone 6" x 1" -- $18.50 each
  • Available Coarse Grits: 150 • 220 • 320 • 400

- Boride CS-HD Stone 6" x 1" -- $17 each
  • Available Coarse Grits: 120 • 150 • 220 • 320 • 400


Given how wildly different in coarseness the SSATC diamond coated were vs the grits on the Shapton Pro ... I now see what people mean by mfrs having very different meanings by a grit number. And then, the 100/80 vs 28/20 ... If it's a continuation of the coarseness of other diamond stones, it's too coarse. If it's proportionate to quality products like the Shapton Pro ... then it's probably pretty similar to the SSATC ... or who knows, maybe it's entirely different again. Obviously, something like a chart that provides comparative levels between these would be very useful. (Assuming that's what your chart does). And I'm assuming the 150 – 360 option for $99 is best ... as it provides the highest gradation leading up to where the Shapton Pro can take over.

The reason I included the Boride options ... is in case Diamond Stones just aren't comparable to Aluminum Oxide like the Shapton Pro ... in which it's easier to "continue where the Shapton Pro leave off" when sticking to similar material. And included the T2 and CS-HD bc Boride lists both as relevant for knife sharpening, but, I really don't know the difference between them ... but assume the T2 are a little higher quality, however, don't offer quite as coarse an option (down to 120) as the CS-HD.


Thanks for enduring all the questions and yammering I've done.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top