Rethinking S30V

[emann]

I really wish I hadn't seen this thread being as I just recently sold a 440C Griptilian so I could buy a S30V Ritter. :grumpy:

 

[Ryan8]

I really wish I hadn't seen this thread being as I just recently sold a 440C Griptilian so I could buy a S30V Ritter. :grumpy:

I have a 551 and at the very least, the Ritter Griptilian has better blade geometry and will cut better as a result. The 551 is a good knife on its own though.

 

[Critter]

Thanks, Critter, but I was not angling for a new knife. Both the Manix and the Ritter RSK are great knives, but it just seems as those these small chips that develop along the edge are fairly common for S30V, although I haven't heard of complaints about the softer Sebenza blade. I'll reprofile both of these knives and see how it goes. If you would like a macro photo, I can email one to you.

I don't think you were "angling for a new knife" at all. That's not the point. I'd really prefer to get the knife back. A photo won't allow us to test the steel or the heat treat. Seriously, whatever your expectations of S30V, they don't meet mine and while it may not seriously impair functionality in the real world, that's not the point.

 

[agent jim]

I've beat the crap out of my Strider Airwing in S30V over here in the sandbox and I haven't seen any chips or even had the need to sharpen it yet.

 

[conan]

I don't think you were "angling for a new knife" at all. That's not the point. I'd really prefer to get the knife back. A photo won't allow us to test the steel or the heat treat. Seriously, whatever your expectations of S30V, they don't meet mine and while it may not seriously impair functionality in the real world, that's not the point.

The blade needs to be examined to determine why it is not performing up to expectations. If it is a steel related problem, we at Crucible want to understand the problem so we can fix it. A laboratory investigation needs to be performed and whether this is done by an independent lab or at Crucible, it needs to be done so it can be determined what the real problem is.

I have been in the specialty steel business for 30 years and as a metallurgist I know that the perfect piece of steel has never been made. I also know that when customers are encountering problems with steel there are many variables to consider when trying to zero in on the actual cause of the problem. BUT never rule out the steel itself as the problem and always consider the steel as the number one candidate.

CPMS30V is still a relatively new steel. Thus far its overall performance in the field has been very good. However, that does not mean a bad piece or a bad sheet or a bad lot of CPMS30V hasn't made it into a knife or knives. If this is the case we want to know about it so we can fix it and then prevent it from happening again.

If the problem is not steel related, we want to know what went wrong in processing or heat treatment, or etc., so we can assist our customer in fixing the problem.

Thanks
Scott Devanna

 

[dialex]

After using the Spyderco Native with S30V and the Native III with VG-10, I prefer the VG-10.

Admittedly, I don't chop with such a small blade, but I can get the VG-10 blade sharper and it seems to hold an edge just as long as the S30V with equal useage.

Good luck,
Allen.

Just my oppinion too. I was into S30V because of the novelty factor, but still preffer VG-10. I can still remember the time when VG-10 was the "trendy" steel, and now it's sliding into obsolency

 

[nozh2002]

I've beat the crap out of my Strider Airwing in S30V over here in the sandbox and I haven't seen any chips or even had the need to sharpen it yet.

This is Paul Bos heat treatment you are talking about.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...and others just climb on the bandwagon, on both sides.

Yeah sure, but here specific instances of problems were being reported so implications that some of the problems are not factual doesn't really add anything useful to the discussion but tends to instead paint the whole thing with a cloud of probable misconceptions.

I handled a Benchmade Skirmish recently in S30V which the steel chipped during sharpening. If felt like glass on ceramic hones and even on the flats of the ceramic rods could take take a fine edge. It is a problem with the steel. It happens.

In fact given your promotion of the Ritter Grip as a user and significant one at that (batoning and the like), I would expect to see more problems reported with that simply because of a lack of safe queens and more users tending to actually lean on the blades.

I think it's very important to be specific when you have concerns ...

This is kind of ironic because your statement has exactly this problem, it clouds the discussion with a broad brush of implication as there is no direct contention that were you actually responding to any of the specific comments.

In general if vague comments are made like "I have found S30V to be brittle.", all that is necessary is to just ask for information, in what knives, in what uses and compared to what steels, it doesn't really gain anything to imply sheep mentality on the part of the user, you obviously can't argue it is productive to further information spread.

The new RSK MkII/BK12 uses a very simple (and cheap) high carbon steel because of the value and performance it offers in that style of knife.

The Becker steel is fairly solid in some respects however I found it lacking in both toughness and durability mainly due to QC issues. While not nearly as bad as Ontario, there was more variance in the geometry and responce of the blades I saw that I would have liked. Of course the price point needs to be considered here as well.

-Cliff

 

[thombrogan]

Have you noticed any difference in sharpening?

Only in my Yojimbo. I was unable to make it tree-topping sharp after it was rehardened. OTOH, my success with that level of sharpness is sporadic. Otherwise, and including the Yojimbo, the edge lasts really long at hair-popping sharp and restores to that level almost immediately with a few passes on a sanding block + lapping film strop.

 

[kylekim]

Rather interesting thread.

I'm quite new to knives but are these chips easily visible to the naked eye? Admittedly, I haven't quite moved up to woods yet but I've done my share of plastic cutting (plastic tie downs on boxes), cardboard, opening up envelopes and the like. From what I can tell, neither of my S30V knives (BM 921 and BM 558 Mini Ritter Grip) has developed any chips yet.

Maybe I'll head on over to a friends place and try some wood to see if anything happens to either knife.

 

[Blop]

As far as i can tell the chips are not really to see but more to feel with your fingernail. They remain even after steeling the edge, so it is not a bend edge.

I guess too, it is a steel "problem". Not really a problem but it is specific to a CPM steel with high carbide content. Less carbides = less chips.

I am just curious about the carbide content of high alloyed M2 and why the edge of this blade i own doen´t show that type of chips.

@critter,

don´t pass to tell us the results about that single blade, after it was checked.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I am just curious about the carbide content of high alloyed M2 and why the edge of this blade i own doen´t show that type of chips.

M2 is far tougher than S30V at a similar hardness and has finer carbides.

I chose it because when treated properly it has some outstanding qualities that I appreciate.

What are its outstanding qualties when compared to BG-42, ATS-34, and VG-10. Why didn't you run that in the new Becker as they have been talking about S30V in fixed blades for some time now with the "Extreme" line.

-Cliff

 

[OwenM]

I can't explain the how, and don't have a clue why, but I've had problems initially with several of my S30V blades that I haven't typically had with other steels, and they have all disappeared over time, and with a few sharpenings. That's been occasionally true of some of my blades in other materials, but seems very common with S30V. Currently, my S30V blades do not roll or microchip easily, and they perform very well relative to similar knives in materials like BG-42, D2, ATS-34, 154CM, and VG-10.
Sometimes I'll post about how great it is, and forget that there were times when I wanted to rip my hair out by the roots because it was such a pain getting those edges "right". Everything would seem fine, but then the edge just wouldn't perform like I expected.
Like I said, I don't know why it was such a pain, or why I had to resharpen a few of them several times before they performed up to par, so can't really offer an explanation. That's just the way it's gone.
Give it a chance. If I hadn't started out with a couple of customs in S30V that I really didn't have any problems sharpening and got great performance all-around from for whatever reason, and my first experience had been with some of the factory knives, I would have been disappointed, too. The difference is that I KNEW what the steel steel could and should do, so my expectations were set, and I was convinced that the problem was somehow with the sharpening, and was determined to get past it.
My Spyderco Paramilitary was the worst one, out of the box, and an initial resharpening didn't do much for it. At one point I was ready to throw it in the trash. Now it's one of my favorites, and currently sees more use than any other knife I own, with minimal edge maintenance needed even after heavy use.
I understand what Doug said about people "thinking they have a problem", because I've had those problems. I just figured the problem might have been the factory sharpening, maybe they got too hot, whatever. Maybe the problem was me and my sharpening. So I kept trying.

Here is a post I made ten months ago on the Spyderco forum, with a comment added today:
"My Paramilitary came with an edge that closely matched the 30 degree included setting on the Sharpmaker, and I initially used that. comment: I had changed the very coarse edge to a mirror polished one with the EdgePro, then roughed it up a little with the medium stones on the Sharpmaker because mirror polishing all the way to the edge left it with no bite, and killed it's slicing ability-the edge was still fully ground at 30 included at that time
For whatever reason, it wasn't holding an edge very well, and I didn't know what the problem was. Now wears a ~25degree included mirror polished back bevel, with a fully ground ~36 degree included edge on top of it that easily touches up on the 20 per side Sharpmaker setting, and cuts much better, and without rolling than the factory edge."
and another from 6 months ago:
"btw, I have been unhappy with the edge durability on some of my production knives in S30V and one of the customs until they were reprofiled, or at least touched up multiple times. I don't know why, but their edges seemed to roll and/or microserrate very easily, and I had problems removing the burr, and getting the edge crisp on them."

I don't know if any of that helps, or just makes matters worse for anybody, but before you rethink it...resharpen it

 

[Critter]

What are its outstanding qualties when compared to BG-42, ATS-34, and VG-10. Why didn't you run that in the new Becker as they have been talking about S30V in fixed blades for some time now with the "Extreme" line.

From my personal experience, in comparison to the other common high end stainless it exhibits notably better edge holding and far greater resistance to corrosion, even salt water. Those are worthwhile benefits, IMO.

As I have noted previously, we do plan to have an S30V version of the RSK MkII / BK12. While I don't yet know how much more expensive it will be, we are still working on fine tuning this to keep the premium at a minimum, the price difference will be substantial due to both the considerably greater cost of the steel itself, the far greater expense required to manufacture the blade and the relatively limited numbers we might produce. In every aspect of the manufacturing process, the cost is greater than for the standard Becker line. (and no, I don't care to comment on the current MSRP of the BK77 ) This will be worth it for some, but not for most.

 

[Don M]

I have observed the same phenomena as Owen, but with D2. I have a few D2 blades that were rather disappointing at first, but the performance improved significantly after reprofiling and sharpening a few times.

 

[emann]

So let me ask some of you in the know, would my selling my 440C Grip to get a Ritter now be considered downgrading? :grumpy:

 

[Ryan8]

So let me ask some of you in the know, would my selling my 440C Grip to get a Ritter now be considered downgrading? :grumpy:

I don't think you would be.

Here is an image of my 551 Griptillian (440C). I wonder if the chips mentioned in this thread reflect the same issue? I've since removed this and the edge is ok for now. We'll see how it goes.

 

[nozh2002]

I have observed the same phenomena as Owen, but with D2. I have a few D2 blades that were rather disappointing at first, but the performance improved significantly after reprofiling and sharpening a few times.

I heart about decarbonization of edge during HT, then when you take this decarbonized material off it starts working well.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[SAK]

Ryan8,

A picture is worth a thousand words. How did you take the photo?

--SAK

 

[Ryan8]

A picture is worth a thousand words. How did you take the photo?

With a digital camera on a copy stand, artificial lights, a triplet loupe (7x or 10x, can't remember) held up to the lens.