Rethinking S30V

[lambertiana]

I have observed the same phenomena as Owen, but with D2. I have a few D2 blades that were rather disappointing at first, but the performance improved significantly after reprofiling and sharpening a few times.

I have also seen this with D2 and S30V. After the first few sharpenings, there is an improvement in edgeholding. My son uses his knives harder than I do (he's 13, after all) and I just checked his S30V Native, which I have sharpened a few times already, and I can't see any sign of chipping under 10X magnification.

 

[Twindog]

The chips on my Manix were quite a bit larger and easily visible without magnification. The largest chip cut into about a third of the edge bezel. The chips on my Ritter were easily visible, but smaller. It had received almost no use.

Scott at Cruicible asked to see the Manix, and I sent it to him. He'll send it back unless the company wants to do destructive tests, then he'll replace the knife. I hope we'll find out what CSM finds out.

Aeromedix didn't want to see the knife because they already have another example, and I didn't need a replacement.

 

[Blop]

M2 is far tougher than S30V at a similar hardness and has finer carbides.


-Cliff

I never found a direct comparision data. Just Damasteel is promoting their PM steel to be stronger in bending resistance (not impact toughness) even than high speed steel.

The PM process should produce much finer carbides than conventionell production. Even finer than carbides of an secondary level, like in M2.

So, how do you know that M2 is tougher? As far as i know M2 takes more until bending but snaps as any other high alloyed steel. Considering impacts i doubt M2 to be somehow tough.

I imagine, that the total carbide volume in M2 is lower than in S30V. This may lead to less chipping. Again, my chips are more to feel than to see. Further i think, that the higher atainable hardness for an average edge of M2 keeps the carbides in place better than S30V, which is run slightly lower or for example D2, which seems to hold a better edge when harder but looses bending ability.

Or, do you know better?

My experiences didn´t change with repeated sharpenings, the chips came back.

Maybe i should be more precise: I checked the edge after cardboard cutting with no chips and had the case of a chip without really cutting with the knife, a few days after sharpening.

Sometimes there is a kind of rough edge at the belly, which only disapears if grinded.

To me everything points towards the internal structure of S30V. Maybe the carbides are not as fine as promoted.

 

[Blop]

The chips on my Manix were quite a bit larger and easily visible without magnification. The largest chip cut into about a third of the edge bezel. The chips on my Ritter were easily visible, but smaller. It had received almost no use.

Scott at Cruicible asked to see the Manix, and I sent it to him. He'll send it back unless the company wants to do destructive tests, then he'll replace the knife. I hope we'll find out what CSM finds out.

Aeromedix didn't want to see the knife because they already have another example, and I didn't need a replacement.

Please don´t forget to post here every thing they´ve found out.

 

[Blop]

I don't think you would be.

Here is an image of my 551 Griptillian (440C). I wonder if the chips mentioned in this thread reflect the same issue? I've since removed this and the edge is ok for now. We'll see how it goes.

If it comes back, and i would try many cutting sessions with hard wood or cardboard, i would send the knife back for replacement.

No i am not talking about this kind of chips. Mine are much smaller.

 

[Brian6244]

The Ritter is 30 degrees also.

 

[Blop]

Put this to the archives!

I never get a difference in that kind of edge chipping by changing the angles. Angles were only important considering the cutting objekt. For example: Pushing into nails worked equally well with 35° edge or bigger and an edge around 30° get a notch. I tested my beloved RWL34 at 30° = notch and beveld it to - 40° = no notch, edge well.

 

[Brent Blue/Aeromedix]

Aeromedix didn't want to see the knife because they already have another example, and I didn't need a replacement.[/QUOTE]

Twindog:

The sales person, who is new, that you first spoke to was mistaken.

As you have already been contacted, we want your knife back since this is the first time we have had anyone complain of this problem. We did have a knife returned once to be recheck but found no problems.

Aeromedix.com stands behind everything we sell and want to make sure that if there is any problem whatsoever, we will fix it. Please don't ever hesitate to contact me personally if you should every have an question.

Brent

 

[Twindog]

I did just get recontacted, and Lisa said Aeromedix did want the knife back. I'll have it in the mail today. She said she'd send me a new knife, too, which I had not asked for. Both Aeromedix and Crucible Specialty Metals have been very responsive, although I had not meant this thread to be a complaint about any knife or knife maker, just a discussion about what I saw as a potential shortcoming, at least in certain circumstances, with S30V.

Brent, I hope you'll let us know what you find.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

So, how do you know that M2 is tougher?

Used it.

To me everything points towards the internal structure of S30V. Maybe the carbides are not as fine as promoted.

Doesn't seem to be in that blade, but not all are like that.

Return it, get it replaced.

-Cliff

 

[Ryan8]

If it comes back, and i would try many cutting sessions with hard wood or cardboard, i would send the knife back for replacement.

That's what I think I'll do. Actually I cut some cardboard and plastic at work yesterday and the day before that without any incident . The knife even needed a bit of a touchup and appeared to dull in a normal manner. So I think I'm ok for now.

The chips on my Manix were quite a bit larger and easily visible without magnification. The largest chip cut into about a third of the edge bezel. The chips on my Ritter were easily visible, but smaller. It had received almost no use.

Not sure if you were responding to me. But the chips on this knife were visible with the naked eye. I just magnified them for detail.

I'm still wondering if there could be some relationship, but maybe both of your knives were made with defective steel to begin with. It could just be a bad batch. Or maybe the two different manufacturers had similar problems and you were just unlucky. It could be that the steel on the edge of mine was too brittle and I've removed most of it.

The results of the tests on your knives should be interesting. I hope they tell you exactly what the problem is.

 

[riddleofsteel]

I read this thread with great interest and some misgivings as my Ritter MK1 has become my favorite EDC. I have been using my MK1 pretty heavy. Since I have had it it has been used in the role of general pocket knife and folding heavy cutter. It skinned and worked up three deer this past fall without needing sharpening. I have yet to notice any problems.
This past weekend I was building a trellis from green bamboo. I had cut the bamboo down with my Falkniven A1 VG10. I was breaking the limbs and leaves off with my hands but each time I got to the end I lopped off the last foot or so with my Fallkniven. During the process of working up several hundred canes I got tired of reaching down for the large A1 and started pulling out the MK1 from my pocket for the final cut on each cane. All in all I chopped off around 175 bamboo canes with my MK1 in a rapid slashing motion. When the canes were finished I was using the Falkniven A1 to chop some maple and hickory saplings to form the frame for the trellis. After I had them cut I used the MK1 to do the final trim on and debark about 24 saplings. Bark is hard on any blade. I did not notice my MK1 or my A1 getting any duller during this operation. I fact I just washed the sap off of the blades and stropped them lightly on a smooth leather hone. Hair popping sharp!

After reading this thread I examined both knives with a set of 150x surgical loops. The edges of both knives were perfectly smooth. I think part of this is my sharpening habits. I take even new knives and put my own edge on them. This usually involves either setting or resetting the grind angles and leaving them with a mirror finish. A mirror finish on a blade obviously cuts better with less drag but is also less prone to chipping as the carbides as smoothed with fewer rough exposed edges. Both of these knives are broken in and have been polished smooth. That may be the difference.

I do plan to torture test my MK1 over the next week to see if and how badly it will fail, if it does. To do this I will use it for the purpose it was intended, as a survival or bushcrafting knife. That means chopping hard wood, batoning, twist splitting wood, tip drilling wood, and angle cuts on green wood.
If the S30V in my MK1 is going to give up I want it to do it in my backyard not in the deep woods. I never carry only one blade. It goes against my training and experience. Currently there is a fanny pack hanging on the back of my truck seat. It has my survival kit in it. The survival kit has a Buck Stockman folder in one pocket plus a Falkniven A1 in VG10 and BRKT Mini Axe on the belt. In addition to this I carry a Ritter MK1 in my pocket. As you can see a damaged S30V blade would be more on an inconvience to me than a life threatening situation but I will not carry a blade I can not depend on.

 

[Don M]

.... All in all I chopped off around 175 bamboo canes with my MK1 in a rapid slashing motion. When the canes were finished I was using the Falkniven A1 to chop some maple and hickory saplings to form the frame for the trellis. After I had them cut I used the MK1 to do the final trim on and debark about 24 saplings. Bark is hard on any blade. I did not notice my MK1 or my A1 getting any duller during this operation. I fact I just washed the sap off of the blades and stropped them lightly on a smooth leather hone. Hair popping sharp!

After reading this thread I examined both knives with a set of 150x surgical loops. The edges of both knives were perfectly smooth. .

Just how much more testing is needed? It's no longer a question of the steel.

 

[josywales3]

Riddleofsteel, I appreciate your future post on the Ritter knife. I have 3, but other than a survival situation, I would never get the use out of them that ou do. So I'm anxious to hear your findings.

 

[WadeF]

I think it would be silly to come to any conclusion about s30v based on what is being discussed in this thread. Maybe those knives had HT problems, maybe they edges got to hot when they had their factory edges put on them and the temper was ruined.

I don't see why we should be worried about a couple knives, or a single knife, showing chips when there are hundreds more being EDC'd by other forum members who aren't having these problems.

 

[emann]

I've started numerous polls at other gun and knife sites. The problems with S30V are contained to this one forum and a few of it's members for some reason.

 

[Ryan8]

I think it would be silly to come to any conclusion about s30v based on what is being discussed in this thread. Maybe those knives had HT problems, maybe they edges got to hot when they had their factory edges put on them and the temper was ruined.

I don't see why we should be worried about a couple knives, or a single knife, showing chips when there are hundreds more being EDC'd by other forum members who aren't having these problems.

Absolutely. I think something went wrong - this isn't normal behavior for S30V or 440C in my case.

 

[WadeF]

Just for fun I decided to chop through a piece of wood I had laying around in my basement. I think it was just pine, so maybe not that impressive of a test, but it was more work than I would usually put my folders through. I usually just use them for pretty basic every day tasks, and chopping through blocks of wood isn't one of them.

I used the Benchmade Doug Ritter Grip (large) with s30v. I touched it up on the ultra fine sharpmaker sticks. It shaved hair, and I didn't notice any chips under my 100x pocket microscope. I never reprofiled the blade, just touch it up from time to time with the Sharpmaker. Here's a pic:

After chopping through this I was impressed that it still shaved hair off my arm. I also didn't notice any chips. I then made about 20 slices through a cardboard box and still didn't see any chips, although this seemed to take away the hair shaving ability of the edge. That cardboard is a b!tch. A few strokes on the Sharpmaker and it was back to hair popping goodness.

BTW, how many people would feel comfortable hacking through a block of wood with their EDC? Especially if it was a liner lock? I have some knives that I would feel nervous doing this with. I'm sure they could do it, I'd just be afraid it may damage the knife or the lock. I felt pretty confident with the Ritter Grip and it felt solid as I chopped away.

 

[Stone Knife]

I appreciated that Crucible's Scott Devanna dropped into the thread- and I'd love to have been able to send him a MicroTech CFO-II blade I recently did a HP job on, but it wasn't mine, and has been sent back to the owner.

In the process of polishing the CFO blade, I ran into a couple 'soft pockets' ...areas where the steel was so much softer than the surrounding material, that small voids were created as I polished. These voids were linear, parallel to the spine of the blade, pretty small (size of a flake of black pepper) but a real hassle, because the more I worked on it to get them out, the deeper they became.

I had done my own CFO-II last year and never ran into this problem, but I did notice a certain "fogginess" about the S30V that convinced me that it's a bad choice for a HP blade, and did make me wonder about how well the particles were blended, as Mr. Blop observed.

Speaking of Tough vs. Hard, I thought I'd toss in this little chart from Crucible comparing A2 & D2 with 3V. You'll notice that Crucible equates "Toughness" with "Chip resistance"

3V in CR's Nkonka, BTW, is an incredible knife. I wish they'd made more of 'em.

 

[josywales3]

Wade, which Sharpmaker are you using? Can you give me the exact model? I have several Ritters, including the large, and am no expert at sharpening. Thanks