Rethinking S30V

[Cliff Stamp]

...a couple 'soft pockets' ...

If these were on the edge they would induce behavior similar to the chips just suddenly appearing as noted in the above.

...about a couple knives, or a single knife...

It isn't a couple of knives, individual users have mentioned more than a couple of knives themselves. As for excuses like HT issues, Crucible promoted the steel based on ease of heat treating, so you can't argue this point from a numbers perspective.

It also isn't unreasonable to have people write off the steel when they have personally seen several examples of lower behavior and have had less than a concrete responce from the manufacturer. It also doesn't do the industy any favors to downplay complaints and propogate inferior work, this should be aggressive sought out and dealt with.

On the Skirmish recently I had problems with when I told Benchmade I did not get a definate answer that I was seeing a flawed blade. I have used other S30V blades so I knew it was, but without this experience and the amount of work done with steels in general, it would not be unreasonable to write this off as a working steel.

-Cliff

 

[WadeF]

Wade, which Sharpmaker are you using? Can you give me the exact model? I have several Ritters, including the large, and am no expert at sharpening. Thanks

Spyderco Sharpmaker 204. I purchased the ultra fine rods seperately.

 

[Stone Knife]

You will probably love the Sharpmaker!

I am pretty much a goof with sharpening, and I have produced excellent edges with it.

I haven't added the ultra-fine hone, but did invest in the diamond one, which has paid for itself when it came time to re-profile some really abused Henckel kitchen knives. The brown 'medium' hone was just not touching them.
The diamonds really got 'er done, and easily set 'em up for the medium and fine ones.

The sharpmaker has honed up my 3V Chris Reeves fixed-blade too, without making it look like an amateur hack-job.

 

[HoB]

Personally, I never had problems with S30V. I do, however, a complete sharpening job on all my knives, taking it to what ever angle I see fit (usually quite low 12-15 deg per side) and polish it up to progessively finer grids, ending at very fine grits. S30V seem to polish up just fine but it takes longer than other steels (on a light colored stone you can see that a S30V blade leaves a lighter trace than VG-10 or ATS-34 does).

More importantly, I am totally impressed by the excellent responses and reactions from Aeromedix and Crucible in this thread. My hat off to you! I have spent the better part of the last two weeks looking for a new watch and can tell you how rare such direct feedback is in other markets (on a side note: big points to Citizen).

 

[emann]

On the Skirmish recently I had problems with when I told Benchmade I did not get a definate answer that I was seeing a flawed blade. I have used other S30V blades so I knew it was, but without this experience and the amount of work done with steels in general, it would not be unreasonable to write this off as a working steel.

-Cliff

I'm a little confused Cliff. One minute you make it sound like you got a bad blade, like here, which means that not all S30V is bad and the next post you make it sound like S30V is just a bad steel altogether. Curious have you ever had a good S30V blade?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...the next post you make it sound like S30V is just a bad steel altogether.

Hardly, if I wanted to say that I would say it directly, I would not imply or hint at it.

Curious have you ever had a good S30V blade?

All the ones I own are fine, nothing spectacular which would make me shout its praises as "the finest stainless" steel. As of late I would caution as when I loaned a couple out to friends they came back chipped with no real note on use, similar to what Blop noted, but these guys get pretty rough (construction) and will cut very hard material often without a second glance.

The only real problem is a lack of high sharpness in a few blades, but this is a very high standard, beyond simple shaving sharp and I have got it on some and not on others, and I am not sure my skill levels are enough to actually make it a steel problem anyway. It was for Jeff on the Military and his skills are way beyond mine, so I intend to run it carefully against a few others and see how it responds.

I have defended the steel on numerous occasions, even in this thread, however at the same time I have argued in defense of the critism's when they were made light of. You can't simply write off the amount of complaints about the steel and the number of people who are noting that they prefer other steels for ease of sharpening, sharpness and edge retention.

-Cliff

 

[Ryan8]

Spyderco Sharpmaker 204. I purchased the ultra fine rods seperately.

Do you find that they're worth it? In other words do they make a significant difference in the final edge?

 

[sodak]

I'm a little confused Cliff. One minute you make it sound like you got a bad blade, like here, which means that not all S30V is bad and the next post you make it sound like S30V is just a bad steel altogether. Curious have you ever had a good S30V blade?

I have a Spyderco Manix, Buck 110, Buck Vanguard, and small Sebenza in S30V. They all exhibit similar properties of not getting very sharp, and not holding the edge for very long. About as long as AUS - 8A. That's pretty unimpressive, especially considering the price of the steel. Of this lot, the Manix has improved significantly with resetting the edge on a coarse stone. It now holds an edge for about as long as VG 10. The Bucks cut well, but I attribute that to the very thin edge geometry. The BG 42 110 that I have blows away the S30V by a large margin. The Sebenza has been disappointing. I've maintained the factory bevel, but based on what I've been reading in other threads, I'm going to thin it out considerably and see if this doesn't help. I think it will.

All of this sharpening has been done on an Edgepro Apex, and I have many dozens of hours of experience on this, and have no problem getting *many* other knives "tree trimming" sharp. The steels that I have sharpened are INFI, 52100, 1095, 5160, D2, CPM 3V, AUS-8A, VG 10, Carbon V, and Rosta Frei, mon .

So I guess considering the price point and edge holding compared to other knives, I've never had a good S30V blade. I think it is *very* over hyped. If I want edge holding, I'll stick with D2. For a great all around stainless, VG 10. For a great high carbon, there are more than I can shake a stick at, depending on whether I want toughness for a chopper, or edge holding, or whatever.

That's what I've found through using these steels. YMMV.

 

[riddleofsteel]

I finished the back lot torture test of the Ritter MK1 today. A period of rainy afternoons delayed me somewhat.

Extended hardwood cutting;

I had a couple of bundles of old oak flooring in my barn. If it is the scraps from my house, as I suspect, it is over 50 years old and HARD. I chopped about six boards in two. I used a chopping motion like I normally use a large bowie or machete. The little knife thru fairly big chips and was held back only by its lack of weight.
Examination of blade showed zero damage. I strop the blade on the back of my leather belt and shave part of my fore arm.

Batoning green wood;

I selected a small baton from my wood pile. It was a piece of cured willow oak about two inches in diameter. I used this to drive the blade of the MK1 thru green branches up to 2.5" in diameter. This involved some beating on the tip area of the knife. I held my breath here.
No damage to knife. Light stropping brings blade back to paper cutting sharp.

Splitting wood;

I had trouble here. I did not feel like driving my knife into branches due to the plastic handle. So I drove my Fallkniven A1 into some wood to open a channel. Then I inserted the MK1 and twist split some long two inch maple branches.
Inspection of blade I notice a small defect in the blade near the curve of the blade. I go inside for my surgical loops and find the defect is a tiny stratch on the blade 90 degrees to the spine of the blade? I inspect the limbs I was splitting with the loops and find nothing metallic or mineral embedded in the wood? I few minutes on 2500 wet dry paper and the chromium oxide charged leather flat bed hone and the stratch is gone.

Drilling green and dry hardwood;

Here I manufactured a fire plow and the hearthboard for a fire drill out of seasoned hardwood from a broken tree limb. Then I drilled holes thru several pieces of green maple limbs to set up set of snares.
No tip damage.

My humble conclusions;
I may break a tip tomorrow cutting my nails or an apple but as far as I am concerned this particular Ritter MK1 passes the back lot bushcraft test. Not only did it avoid the dreaded chipping of the blade it maintained its razor sharp profile thru out the test. If I had not stratched the blade on an unknown foreign substance I could have gotten by just stropping the blade on the back of my belt during all this. I doubt I will ever wander the wilderness with only one blade on purpose but if the MK1 was all I had I would not feel under-knifed even in S30V.

 

[Blop]

Have you run your fingernail along the edge? If not, would you please at the fresh edge (smooth) and after work (still smooth or not?)?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have a Spyderco Manix, Buck 110, Buck Vanguard, and small Sebenza in S30V. They all exhibit similar properties of not getting very sharp, and not holding the edge for very long.

Have you discussed this with Spydero, Buck and Reeve?

The Sebenza has been disappointing. I've maintained the factory bevel, but based on what I've been reading in other threads, I'm going to thin it out considerably and see if this doesn't help.

The edge angle isn't optimal considering the edge grind, I cut mine far back and radically altered the cutting ability and edge life. It doesn't make sense to put an edge bevel which is suitable for chopping metal on an edge which is ~0.010" thick with a deep hollow grind.

[S30V]

I think it is *very* over hyped.

Yes, I have had better experience, but I would certainly not argue it is a class above D2 and other high carbon stainless steels. You should contact Phil Wilson and see if he can't reharden one of them for you. Get it up to at least 60 HRC.

I selected a small baton from my wood pile. It was a piece of cured willow oak about two inches in diameter. I used this to drive the blade of the MK1 thru green branches up to 2.5" in diameter. This involved some beating on the tip area of the knife. I held my breath here.
No damage to knife. Light stropping brings blade back to paper cutting sharp.

It is hard to judge these things without another knife used for comparison, but to me that would indicate really low edge retention (less than 420HC class). Have you used other knives which demonstrated significantly worse edge retention?

Nice workout.

-Cliff

 

[sodak]

Have you discussed this with Spydero, Buck and Reeve?

[S30V]

Yes, I have had better experience, but I would certainly not argue it is a class above D2 and other high carbon stainless steels. You should contact Phil Wilson and see if he can't reharden one of them for you. Get it up to at least 60 HRC.


-Cliff

Not yet. I would like to first try

a. Thinning the Sebenza out.
b. Recutting the edge on the Manix and putting a small secondary bevel.
c. More testing with the Bucks.

I know that you suggested a and b, I just haven't had time yet, but fully intend to try these. The Sebenza is such a good knive in fit and finish, I really want to try to make it work before throwing in the towel.

I'm trying to get in touch with Phil. I might have several knives for him to harden, not all in S30V either...

 

[UnixDork]

I have S30V knives from Reeves, Spyderco and Gene Ingram and they're all different but all good in their own way. I've beat up my Sebenza pretty good and never had a chipping problem, but it doesn't hold an edge like my Manix or LT. The Ingram beats them all in taking a fine edge. S30V is perfect for me, with D2 coming in a very close second only because it's not as stainless.

Aren't all of these chipping/edge retention/edge quality issues just the difference in heat treat and geometry from different makers?

 

[NGK-Webmaster]

I have seen Benchmades with chipping problems, Sebenzas with chipping problems but never a Spyderco to date. I have carried a S30V bladed knife daily for about 3 years and the only one I had a chipping problem with was a Benchmade 921.

Most knife-a-holics want their knives to feel scary sharp, pop the hair off their arms etc etc. but knife sharpened like this don't have the best edges for a EDC knife, re-think your angles and use of the knife, then put a appropriate edge on it, you will find it last must longer and has few problems.

Putting that thin razor edge on a knife for EDC means the knife feels scary sharp but it also feels duller quicker and most will resharpen more then they need, to keep that scary sharp feeling edge, when mostly your wasting steel. IMO

If the knife has this problem and is factory, then send it back let them check RC on the steel, if that is not the problem then change the edge.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I'm trying to get in touch with Phil. I might have several knives for him to harden, not all in S30V either...

Once you start using hard steels in very thin edge profiles, your perspective changes.

...just the difference in heat treat and geometry...

First of all there is a perspective issue, what one person notes as strong edge retention isn't going to be for someone else. Thus you need to know what they are getting good results with, and some like Sodak have been very informative in that regard.

But yes since there are decent S30V knives out there it is hard to make the arguement that it can't be a decent steel, however there just seems to be a significant amount of people who are experiencing problems in several repeated areas.

Most knife-a-holics want their knives to feel scary sharp, pop the hair off their arms etc etc. but knife sharpened like this don't have the best edges for a EDC knife, re-think your angles and use of the knife, then put a appropriate edge on it, you will find it last must longer and has few problems.

The sharper a knife is the better it will cut and the longer it will last, reducing an edge angle as well doesn't lower performance until it passes the required durablity limits which is fairly low for most materials. All my primary users have edge grinds of 8-12 degrees unless they are choppers in which case it goes up to about 15. When sharpened they are taken right up to full blazing sharp.

-Cliff