Rhinoceros horn!?!

As one who uses Pre-Ban Elephant on knives, let me say that I share the desire to see the animals who share our planet preserved. Poaching of endangered species should not be enabled.

The actual cause of most animal extinction, including elephant and rhino, is habitat loss, due to expanding human population. The preservation of large animals which compete with humans for living space in an ever more crowded world, is made easier by providing locals with a stake in their survival. Management, reserves, parks, hunting, tourist and camera safaris, these are the practical methods of conserving land and animals alike.

John
 
It is not ethical to use any material form an animal species who is poached for that material. Elephants were killed for their tusks and rest of their body are left to rot. Rhinoceros were also poached for their horn, which in some cultures has medicinal use. In the above examples, no other parts of the animals are harvested.

Regardless of how you rationalize using ivory, Rhinoceros horn, and other such materials as a handle material is not ethical.

The demanded, by knife makers and collectors, for such material contributes to the demand placed on ivory, which encourages the poacher to risk his life to obtain it.
:thumbdn:
 
fxrandall said:
It is not ethical to use any material form an animal species who is poached for that material. Elephants were killed for their tusks and rest of their body are left to rot. Rhinoceros were also poached for their horn, which in some cultures has medicinal use. In the above examples, no other parts of the animals are harvested.

Regardless of how you rationalize using ivory, Rhinoceros horn, and other such materials as a handle material is not ethical.

The demanded, by knife makers and collectors, for such material contributes to the demand placed on ivory, which encourages the poacher to risk his life to obtain it.
:thumbdn:
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What about hundred year old knives with elephant ivory handles? Do you think it's ethical or not ethical to own or purchase such a knife?
 
fxrandall said:
It is not ethical to use any material form an animal species who is poached for that material. Elephants were killed for their tusks and rest of their body are left to rot. Rhinoceros were also poached for their horn, which in some cultures has medicinal use. In the above examples, no other parts of the animals are harvested.

Regardless of how you rationalize using ivory, Rhinoceros horn, and other such materials as a handle material is not ethical.

The demanded, by knife makers and collectors, for such material contributes to the demand placed on ivory, which encourages the poacher to risk his life to obtain it.
:thumbdn:
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While I agree it is un-ethical to use a banned material, that is the only reason that the poachers are after it. It is forbidden fruit. If it was legal to trade and produce it, and the countries they are native to were not so corrupt, we would have elephant farms keeping up with the demand, and they would not even be endangered today. No shortage of beef now is there?
 
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Ivory from dead elephants or horns from dead rhino doesn't really belong anywhere does it?
Not unless you're worried about your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren having petroleum products?
 
Ben B said:
Elephant ivory belongs on elephants.
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I would just like to note here that since 1989 108 tons of legal elephant ivory has been sold on the world market by African governments to help finance their wildlife protection programs (and other things, I am sure), the latest sale was last year. I don't want to pick a fight here but we should keep things in perspective.

On another note, I was lucky enough to purchase (legally) some ancient woolly rhino horn, enough for 4 knives, it is 20 to 60 thousand years old. I have all of the proper documentation and I am sure Ron does too, modern or ancient. I personally think it is very risky to use modern materials of this nature even when it is perfectly legal, some zealous Fish and Wildlife personel can make ones life very difficult if proper records are not kept. Ron is innocent until proven guilty, but many people would, besmirch his fine reputation for no good reason, really. I don't know Ron but it would stand to reason that he keeps his paperwork as organized as his making of knives.

We are all aware that, or we should be aware that sites like this, eBay and Taxidermy Forums are being monitored by enforcement people and wildlife preservationist groups and when highly sensitive search words pop up, people are paying attention.

It is a good idea to make copies of documents pertaining to material origin and pass them along with the products made with them, in this case the knife. Then there should be no question.

Just on man's opinion
 
John White said:
As one who uses Pre-Ban Elephant on knives, let me say that I share the desire to see the animals who share our planet preserved. Poaching of endangered species should not be enabled.

The actual cause of most animal extinction, including elephant and rhino, is habitat loss, due to expanding human population. The preservation of large animals which compete with humans for living space in an ever more crowded world, is made easier by providing locals with a stake in their survival. Management, reserves, parks, hunting, tourist and camera safaris, these are the practical methods of conserving land and animals alike.

John
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Well said John
 
Kevin Jones said:
And TAH, also curious why you listed $4000 in your post. Are you trying to sell it here?
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Nope, not mine to sell, Kevin. I just copied the description from the dealer website and left the price for reference.

Mods, feel free to remove the price if inappropriate.
 
John White said:
As one who uses Pre-Ban Elephant on knives, let me say that I share the desire to see the animals who share our planet preserved. Poaching of endangered species should not be enabled.


John
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How does anyone know truly that "Pre-Ban" means anything, other than just a way (label) to market the ivory?
Thanks,
David
 
Ben B said:
I should have added a big IMHO to my post. I'm not judging other people's choices. But if a new collector is starting out, they might want to thing about the ethics and sustainability of their knife materials. There isn't a lot of Desert Ironwood out there either for that matter (and I certainly have some of that).
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I agree Ben. There are atrocities also, with the poaching. An illegal trade in the materials is perpetuated by individuals who are blind consumers to it all.
David
 
betzner said:
What about hundred year old knives with elephant ivory handles? Do you think it's ethical or not ethical to own or purchase such a knife?
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The age of the ivory or its classification (e.g. pre-ban) does not have an effect on the demand of the material.

If there is a demand place on materials harvested form animals, who are poached for that material...we will see these animals disappear from the planet. To say “OK, I will only purchase ivory that is legal”... you are still contributing to the purchase of a material that most likely resulted in the killing of an Elephant.

If nobody wanted ivory there would be no demand for it. And Elephants would not be slaughtered for their tusks.

So, as a knife handle material (regardless of its classification), ivory and other such materials, should not be used.

No! It is not ethical to use ivory.
 
DavidZ said:
...elephant farms keeping up with the demand...
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You are still killing an Elephant to feed the greed of humans. Just because we think ivory is attractive and we would like some...we do not have the right to kill a living animal so we can have a nice knife.
 
fxrandall said:
The age of the ivory or its classification (e.g. pre-ban) does not have an effect on the demand of the material.

If there is a demand place on materials harvested form animals, who are poached for that material...we will see these animals disappear from the planet. To say “OK, I will only purchase ivory that is legal”... you are still contributing to the purchase of a material that most likely resulted in the killing of an Elephant.

If nobody wanted ivory there would be no demand for it. And Elephants would not be slaughtered for their tusks.

So, as a knife handle material (regardless of its classification), ivory and other such materials, should not be used.

No! It is not ethical to use ivory.
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The ethics of today and the ethics of yesteryear are markedly two different measuring sticks. To carry it to the absurd, the ethics of Neanderthal and the ethics of Homo Erectus are two different things. So the ethical question of the purchase of a very old knife - versus new material - is for me, though still an ethical question, it's answered for me. It is not unethical to purchase or own a 100 year old knife that happens to have an ivory handle. Perhaps for you, the ethics is different. That's your choice. But not mine.
 
John White said:
The actual cause of most animal extinction, including elephant and rhino, is habitat loss, due to expanding human population.
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This is a vialed point...but out of the scope of this topic. I think we are discussing the use of animal material for a knife handle material.

Not, deforestation and over population as the root cause of animal extinction.
 
fxrandall said:
You are still killing an Elephant to feed the greed of humans. Just because we think ivory is attractive and we would like some...we do not have the right to kill a living animal so we can have a nice knife.
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Sometimes one elephant must die to help many others live. This is the philosophy of conservation through controlled, legal hunting. Last I heard, the average price of an elephant license costs $10,000 plus trophy fees and other expenses. This money goes a long way in protection efforts against poaching of the living herds.
 
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fxrandall said:
This is a vialed point...but out of the scope of this topic. I think we are discussing the use of animal material for a knife handle material.

Not, deforestation and over population as the root cause of animal extinction.
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So we can't use ivory, horn, antler, shell, bone, or skin for our knives? If that's true, we can't eat meat or wear leather shoes and belts, and we certainly can't have leather sheaths for our plastic handled knives.

There is plenty of African elephant ivory in the US that predates the 1989 CITES ban on international trade in ivory. There is nothing unethical in using an animal product that was and is still legal for commercial purposes. A. elephants were declared threatened, not endangered, so the use of their ivory already in the country is fine. Rhinos, on the other hand, are endangered and the trade and use of their horns is illegal. Has been for a long time.

And honestly, I doubt that Lake is really going to worry about the legality of using rhino horn for commercial purposes such as on this knife. I was offered rhino horn several years ago, long after it was declared illegal. Many knifemakers use tortoise shell. As far as I know the commercial use of ALL tortoise shell is illegal because the one species that is endangered and all the other tortoises have shells that are indistinguishable from one another. I know, they SAY they get it from old combs and mirrors, but. . . Even saw it listed throughout a book a few years ago as "exotic shell". The legal status of tortoise shell hasn't stopped it from being used by knifemakers.
 
fxrandall said:
Conservation is a fallacy.

It is just another way for us to exploit nature for our own use.

Conservation does not work!
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White tail deer population at the beginning of the 20th century was a few million head (maybe around 6 million, if I recall correctly). By the late 20th century it was up to over 24 million, and some counties and states (and even cities) had to have special hunts to reduce the numbers because they were either encroaching on people homes and destroying property or they were going to starve and suffer. In addition, the quality of the deer have improved tremendously. Used to have little scrawny white tails here in N Texas, now they are pretty big. We didn't have to worry too much about auto accidents with a deer 35 years ago, but now it's a much bigger problem.

Don't know numbers on buffalo, but there are enough now that it is a commercial food product and there are guided hunts. Probably more than 120 years ago.

Since the 1989 ban on international ivory trade the numbers of African elephants have grown to the point that herds must be culled or proper and lives are endangered. (People are a little more important than elephants!)

These are just 3 examples, but I'm sure we could find more. Looks like conservation does in fact work!

David
 
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