Rhinoceros horn!?!

I'm not crazy about using it myself. Have owned/do own one piece with antique elephant ivory.

My curiosity was more as to elephant ivory seems to be fairly well accepted as a handle material however Rhino horn seems not to be.

Maybe I'm mistaken but aren't Rhinos close to extinction and are mainly poached to sell their horns as knife handles? Elephants are poached too but I think their numbers are much more stable. And there's a lot of the material available with known provenance. Personally I'm not against using these materials, and tortoise shell comes to mind, but we need to be careful we don't contribute to the demand that fuels the black market.

PS I think leather shoes are fine, as long as the leather came from a cow and not a rhino... :D
 
fxrandall wrote:
It is not ethical to use any material form an animal species who is poached for that material.

Since I guess that you are a member of the Ethics Police, I have a question for you.

According to your profile your favorite knife is a SG Tusker, is it ethical to own a knife named after an elephant?

Save the Mammoths!
 
fxrandall wrote:


Since I guess that you are a member of the Ethics Police, I have a question for you.

According to your profile your favorite knife is a SG Tusker, is it ethical to own a knife named after an elephant?

Save the Mammoths!

The Tusker name isn't related to elephants
 
Thanks Mark. I still have questions, how to regulate? - there are loopholes and ways around everything.

Back to the original post, Ron Lake's choice to use Rhino. It is a "stain" on his reputation as far as i'm concerned.
David
 
Thanks Mark. I still have questions, how to regulate? - there are loopholes and ways around everything.

Back to the original post, Ron Lake's choice to use Rhino. It is a "stain" on his reputation as far as i'm concerned.
David


It's my understanding that the only African elephant ivory coming into the US is from the few big game hunters who pay extra for the tusks as trophies, and they can't sell it for commercial purposes. Even if they did, the stuff wouldn't be any good for some years until it dried out. The US was never really where the poached ivory went anyway. I believe most went to Japan and HongKong. The US government agencies regulate the importation of A. elephant ivory by confiscating any they find coming in without the trophy documents. It doesn't wind up on the shelves of knife supply houses any more than cheetah skins wind up in Neiman's.

The use of the term "pre-ban ivory" probably satisfies a couple of states that have stricter laws about using ivory, but otherwise it's a feel good thing. It's not necessary in general because in 1989 all A. elephant ivory already in the US was declared legal. I suspect that most of it was in fact legally imported anyway.

As as far as that Lake knife is concerned, it's a fixed blade. I'm not sure Lake has made any fixed blades in many years, so maybe he's seen the error of his evil ways and stopped using illegal animal products!

And I think we need to save the warthogs myself!
 
We need to know how the horn was harvested or came to be before we cast judgements. Who knows, it could be from some long dead trophy someone had sitting around.
I agree.
As as far as that Lake knife is concerned, it's a fixed blade. I'm not sure Lake has made any fixed blades in many years, so maybe he's seen the error of his evil ways and stopped using illegal animal products!
Lake fixed blades are not too common.
 
it's one thing to domesticate animals and to harvest them as one would crops. Or to hunt an animal in its natural environment for sustenance.

It is quite another to enter an animals habitat and take its life for the purpose of acquiring a trophy.

I love animals, but I also like to eat them, wear them and use byproducts from their harvesting, however, these are generally animals whose existence is thanks to the hand of man. And who am I to say that that is right or wrong:confused:
 
Hmmm, I love animals too, so i don't eat them, hunt them or wear them. :)
Lake, :thumbdn:
 
Thanks Mark. I still have questions, how to regulate? - there are loopholes and ways around everything.

Back to the original post, Ron Lake's choice to use Rhino. It is a "stain" on his reputation as far as i'm concerned.
David

Regulation is a matter for our very good enforcement professionals, at the border and within the country. They are very good, during the legal ivory sale from Africa last year I recieved two emails from people with some for sale, I did not know if it was legal to import it to the United States so I called the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to ask. They already knew about the would-be importers and actually would not tell me if it was legal or not to import. They were going to leave it up to me to make that decision, as it turns out it would have been a mistake. When pressed, the Fish and Wildlife officials finally told me to ask the ivory dealers for copies of their import documents, when I did that these importers evaporated into the same thin air they came from. I am certain that if I had made a deal to perchase some of that elephant ivory I would have been in big trouble. I suspect that one or both of the importers were in fact enforcment agents. It is pretty well known among dealers of wildlife parts that a high percentage of the calls we get from people with illegal stuff for sale are undercover agents, the guys that buy that stuff get arrested.

I am not at the center of the rhino horn and elephant issues in that I have not researched it as much as some other things but I can tell you that we have heard all the same things said about poaching the hot button spieces in Alaska and the 48 states and I can tell you that most of those things you hear are just not true. There is not a big market for illicit animal parts. I have been around this stuff for a long time, we hear the stories but it's kind of like an honest pollitician, you are kind of sure one exists but you have never really seen one. I can tell you that there are not a bunch of people running around killing bears for their gall bladders.

It wasn't you but one person said people making products (knives) from materials like this are just greedy, making money from endangered species, nothing can be further from the truth, of all the knife makers I know, none of them are greedy, none of them are carving a fat hog, many of them save up money for the next nice knife build. They want to make pieces of art with some traditional (classic) materials, like the old days. There are lots of easier ways to make a living.
Many people know that I like to use exotic materials, and I will use legal pre-ban material but I will not use or sell material with unknown origin, ethics asside for just a moment, it is just not smart to do so. People are watching. I hope that my use of legal preban materials does not "stain" my reputation but I learned a long time ago that I am not likely to ever make everyone happy. I do hope that we can all discuss things civilly.

I am sorry but anyone (again not you) that says conservation does not work is just uninformed or out of touch, but more probably has his own agenda.
 
Last edited:
In 1993 I was ask to make a knife with Rhino horn which the forgeiner was going to supply. He was going to bring it to me to make a cerimonial knife out of. It was a hungee or something SP like that. I made the blade and he sent the knife to Africa to have the handle put on it.
The reason for getting the handle done there is-----
I contacted U.S. Fish & Wildlife service because someone told me that might be illigal to bring in to the US I was told if you can't shit a Rhino you better not have a knife with the horn on it. That is what the agent told me in Washington. SO I did not get it. He said that was the most illigal material you could bring into the U.S. My understanding is it would be automatic jail time to have it. SO anyone with it might check this out, or not advertise you have it.
 
How many Rhino were killed while try to put them in exhibits ?
It takes large pens to keep Rhinos in while they are made ready for transport to zoo areas where they may be put into breeding programs.
For a while it had become very difficult to get the Rhinos to survive after the trip. Drugs were checked , tranquil settings were provided for a period of adjustment, they still died.Holding pens were checked for viruses etc.
A doctor checked the wood the pens were built from. On the very large anchor posts creosote was used to preserve the very large timbers. The Rhino was found to has an immune system that would not tolerate even small amounts of this product. By the time they reached their final destination the poison was in full force. A week or a bit more and they were gone. Their immune system is one of the most fragile of any mammal on earth. The best intentions killed these noble beasts. Who would have thought CREOSOTE was the cause. How many died , who knows ? If they did they would not tell.
But they are so large and
Floyd
 
Rhino horn as a knife handle material is traditional in much of the Middle East. I would bet that it has been more damaging to the species than grinding it for ingestion (that being a mainly Far-Eastern habit).

It's not hard to find daggers with Rhino horn handles in the markets in countries like Qatar. If I wanted to use it that's where I'd go to get some. Plenty of old horn available, but not cheap.

I really doubt you'll find many safari types using the horn off their trophy's to make knives. That's way too expensive, and the mount is the goal of those hunts.
 
This thread has gone from an interesting handle material to beating someone up over what handle material is used.

fxrandal has become the morality police for the thread and apparently learned all about it from the LA Times. Wikipedia would be more accurate on any given subject.

Whatever Ron did was no doubt legal when he did it. There was not, at that time, any problem with doing it. To cast aspersions after the fact is far worse than just bad form.

I spent a career as a game warden. If you want to talk about what's poached, include about any critter in existence anywhere today. Deer are killed while in velvet to feed the Asian aphrodisiac market, as are elk. Bears are poached for their gall bladders, same market, as are seals, sea lions and tigers for their penises.

If you don't want to use any form of animal product, fine, then don't. That is your choice. But keep your negative opinions of those who do to yourselves, because they are equally allowed to have their own opinions.

To say that conservation doesn't work is worse than uninformed. That is the attitude of the preservationist, who feels that things should be as they were before we came and raped the land. It ignores the fact that 4 billion peoiple aren't leaving any time soon.

Conservationists buy hunting and fishing licenses and contribute to resource protection. They pay voluntary taxes on sporting goods that goes towards habitat improvement.

Preservationists give money to Greenpeace and the Sierra Club so they can protest conservationists. They do not generally contribute anything else towards helping our resources. Just loud speech.

To those who are so self righteous as to feel that humaniity needs to be reduced for the sake of the environment, I'll leave you with this: please feel free to take your own life at any convenient time. If you aren't willing to step up and die with that belief then you lack any moral authority whatever to try to decide who else should go in your place.

In the meantime, get off Ron's back.

Let the party begin.

Gene
 
So we can't use ivory, horn, antler, shell, bone, or skin for our knives? If that's true, we can't eat meat or wear leather shoes and belts, and we certainly can't have leather sheaths for our plastic handled knives.

I'm glad somebody wrote that...:thumbup:

Soy-burgers, G10 handles and kydex sheaths for everybody!;)

Ok I have a question for the "ethics police": what do you want to do with the legal horn/ivory/shell/antler that's out there? Destroy it? Now what good would that do?

Conservation is a fallacy.

It is just another way for us to exploit nature for our own use.

Conservation does not work!

:rolleyes:Ah. So you want to destroy all man-made structures (buildings, roads), kill about 95% of the worlds population, restore the habitats and start all over again?

It is not ethical to use any material form an animal species who is poached for that material.

:yawn:Do you eat meat? Wear leather shoes, belt? Nice leather sheath for your knife maybe?

giraffe bone belongs on giraffes

Yeah right. Giraffes get killed only to make knife handles...





Just to avoid confusion: I'm not saying that we have to kill elephants / rhino's / turtles etc to get a nice knife, but why can't we use the stuff that's out there?

Kind regards,

Jos
 
Just to put an end to the whole mess, does anyone know Ron Lake to ask him about the knife?
 
Jos,
And why shouldn't the Nazi's have used human skin for making lamp shades and soap? ... while they have all this extra skin laying around.
Right?

Gene,
I cannot begin to get "inside your head" on species extinction. You've got a cynical attitude about many things it sounds like.. Good luck!
David
 
Jos,
And why shouldn't the Nazi's have used human skin for making lamp shades and soap? ... while they have all this extra skin laying around.
Right?

What do the Nazi's have to do with this? That comparison is uncalled for.:thumbdn:

Back on topic:

So what do you suggest we do with the LEGAL ivory / horn that's out there? It's all good and well to be the holier than thou "ethical police" (sorry, can't find a better word) and say we can't use / buy ivory, but what's the solution? (general question, no attack on you, 2knife)

Kind regards,

Jos
 
Thanks Jos,
I don't pretend to know.. But this sort of knife, while it exists is an advertisement for another one to be made. So, it serves a negative function in my view.
David
 
Back
Top