Rick Hinderer sent Cease and Desist to Youtuber for saying the steel was soft in his knife?

[afishhunter]

This makes Hinderer look like an ahole, IMO-- and not because of the slightly subpar heat treat. The proper response would have been, "hmm, looks like one of 12 knives you tested was very marginally below our standard. Thanks for bringing it to our attention." Instead, he brings in the lawyers to try to intimidate this guy?

I must respectfully disagree.
Disclosure: I don't own a Hinderer knife, nor do I have any desire to. They are "not my cup of tea". So far as I am aware, I have never seen nor handled a Hinderer knife.
Prior to seeing this thread, I had not heard of this controversy.
As for the guy making the accusations against Hinderer knives ... I haven't watched any of his You Tube videos, and I don't use Instagram.
I view very few knife "reviews" on You Tube. 99.9% of those that come up on my "suggested Watch List" get a "Do Not Recommend Channel" click without opening the video, based on the knife, teaser/click bait photo, and the title.

Hinderer has an earned reputation. The guy's comments and actions have damaged that, or at the very least caused existing customers to question what they themselves cannot prove or disprove. The fact that Hinderer has received questions about the allegations made in the videos and on Instagram is proof of this.
The guy is "lucky" Hinderer gave him a chance to retract his allegations with no financial liability. If he is "smart" he will retract, and take the hit to what little credibility he may have had.
Not admitting the accuracy of his tester is ± .5 Rockwell, the blade had been modified, the knife was bought used, and isn't a random factory fresh unmolested example ... his statements about failing taking the steel in question above 62RC and why, pretty much kills any credibility he may have had. If he is such a top notch knife maker, he should know the properties and limitations of that steel. (or perhaps he doesn't use it, or if he does, over hardens it, making his blades/edges "chippy" or worse?)
Just because he makes a few knives does does not make him an "expert" at reading and comprehending the data, especially since he failed to account for the grinding done to the blade after it left the factory.

IMHO, this cease and desist letter doesn't harm Hinderer in the slightest. Your suggested course of action: giving the guy credibility by admitting the guy is right, would do far more damage, and encourage him and others to make false accusations against the company and its products.

Personally, I think the guy who made the false and misleading statements should issue the retraction, AND have to pay attorney fees, and at least some damages. Maybe a couple hundred grand in damages would make him (and other "reviwers") think twice before making false and misleading statements about any brand.

Were I head of the company, I'd get a restraining order from the court, taking the videos and comments offline, and sue for deformation, slander, and everything else, and for attorney, court costs, and damages. I'd probably ask the court that when he is found guilty, his channel be taken down and he be forever banned from posting another review on/for anything, to include so much as a sewing needle, pins, thread, and thimble.

No cease and desist letter, giving him a means to get off the hook free and clear.

 

[Murdamook]

Much more than this. TK said:

• The hardness that RKH advertises for its knives is “garbage”
• (Paraphrased) RKH lacks the competence to grind steel above 62 HRC
• RKH needs to “improve” and “do a better job”

(Sounds like my ex-wife, BTW )

From Rick's perspective, the above are likely bigger issues than TK opining that RHK’s spec range is too soft.

Roland.

So, I think there’s sides being formed here and if someone says something that doesn’t fit one side’s perception, then they get a reply stating they’re “wrong”. He may have stated what I paraphrased in a similar way you paraphrased, but all three of your points were just an indignant way of stating what I did. I wasn’t justifying anything or diminishing RHK’s gripes. I was just stating the core argument without rehashing all of the other drama, because it isn’t as concise.

 

[ferider]

all three of your points were just an indignant way of stating what I did.

Very true, TK was indignant, to say it nicely. My point being that he could have formulated it differently, could have made all the difference. It's the difference between objective feedback and personal insult. That's why I mentioned my ex-wife

 

[Quiet]

Well, based on the videos in which he explained everything, he was testing the steel to see if it fell within the stated range originally, then he posted the results in a general post about the XM. He stated his machines have a +/- .5 variability, so the knife could be within range, but the key problem, as he stated it, was the range itself.

Which, again, means that he took it upon himself to decide that the way RHK does business and created their product is "wrong" based entirely on his say-so. That's the issue many of us have with this.

I think that letter from RHK was over the top, but candidly speaking, if some IG nobody rallied his fanbase up with the idea that my products were trash, that's absolutely not something that I, as a business owner and product creator would/could ignore.

That's the crux of all this from an objective standpoint. A guy who does reblades thinks he's got the authority and expertise to talk trash about a product made by someone else, an entirely successful product with literally hundreds of thousands of satisfied customers.

I'd be pissed too. TK deserves all of this, and his crybaby "Poor me, please help me fight this big mean company" act is disgusting, childish, and pathetic.

 

[Murdamook]

I must respectfully disagree.
Disclosure: I don't own a Hinderer knife, nor do I have any desire to. They are "not my cup of tea". So far as I am aware, I have never seen nor handled a Hinderer knife.
Prior to seeing this thread, I had not heard of this controversy.
As for the guy making the accusations against Hinderer knives ... I haven't watched any of his You Tube videos, and I don't use Instagram.
I view very few knife "reviews" on You Tube. 99.9% of those that come up on my "suggested Watch List" get a "Do Not Recommend Channel" click without opening the video, based on the knife, teaser/click bait photo, and the title.

Hinderer has an earned reputation. The guy's comments and actions have damaged that, or at the very least caused existing customers to question what they themselves cannot prove or disprove. The fact that Hinderer has received questions about the allegations made in the videos and on Instagram is proof of this.
The guy is "lucky" Hinderer gave him a chance to retract his allegations with no financial liability. If he is "smart" he will retract, and take the hit to what little credibility he may have had.
Not admitting the accuracy of his tester is ± .5 Rockwell, the blade had been modified, the knife was bought used, and isn't a random factory fresh unmolested example ... his statements about failing taking the steel in question above 62RC and why, pretty much kills any credibility he may have had. If he is such a top notch knife maker, he should know the properties and limitations of that steel. (or perhaps he doesn't use it, or if he does, over hardens it, making his blades/edges "chippy" or worse?)
Just because he makes a few knives does does not make him an "expert" at reading and comprehending the data, especially since he failed to account for the grinding done to the blade after it left the factory.

IMHO, this cease and desist letter doesn't harm Hinderer in the slightest. Your suggested course of action: giving the guy credibility by admitting the guy is right, would do far more damage, and encourage him and others to make false accusations against the company and its products.

Personally, I think the guy who made the false and misleading statements should issue the retraction, AND have to pay attorney fees, and at least some damages. Maybe a couple hundred grand in damages would make him (and other "reviwers") think twice before making false and misleading statements about any brand.

Were I head of the company, I'd get a restraining order from the court, taking the videos and comments offline, and sue for deformation, slander, and everything else, and for attorney, court costs, and damages. I'd probably ask the court that when he is found guilty, his channel be taken down and he be forever banned from posting another review on/for anything, to include so much as a sewing needle, pins, thread, and thimble.

No cease and desist letter, giving him a means to get off the hook free and clear.

This is all fine and good, but the negatives portrayed by TK in his video weren’t about the testing, but the actual RC range. Multiple people in this thread have stated that financial liability in this case is virtually a non-starter. I don’t expect RHK will actually file suit at this point, because proving the four aspects of a defamation suit is incredibly difficult and the jurisdiction in which he would have to sue might take action against him if they deem it to be a lawsuit attempting to discourage public participation.

 

[EngrSorenson]

Well, based on the videos in which he explained everything, he was testing the steel to see if it fell within the stated range originally, then he posted the results in a general post about the XM. He stated his machines have a +/- .5 variability, so the knife could be within range, but the key problem, as he stated it, was the range itself.

My first comment is off-topic and neither here nor there.
The balls on that guy to define for Rick Hinderer what the range should be, in the first place.
Do I believe that Rick Hinderer probably likes the smell of his own farts? absolutely!
I also believe he's earned a little respect from Youtube guys.

Secondly, more on topic and from my point of view, the part that's grieving Rick Hinderer the most is all the emails asking about the hardness of the steel of his products.
That much is due to the fallout from Brian Kim publishing figures out of his basement.

I begrudge no business owner the right to protect his product from another business owner.
This is why it's always important to use phrases like, "In my opinion" or "In my experience" when you're commenting on a product, particularly as someone representing a business.

 

[Murdamook]

Which, again, means that he took it upon himself to decide that the way RHK does business and created their product is "wrong" based entirely on his say-so. That's the issue many of us have with this.

I think that letter from RHK was over the top, but candidly speaking, if some IG nobody rallied his fanbase up with the idea that my products were trash, that's absolutely not something that I, as a business owner and product creator would/could ignore.

That's the crux of all this from an objective standpoint. A guy who does reblades thinks he's got the authority and expertise to talk trash about a product made by someone else, an entirely successful product with literally hundreds of thousands of satisfied customers.

I'd be pissed too. TK deserves all of this, and his crybaby "Poor me, please help me fight this big mean company" act is disgusting, childish, and pathetic.

I don’t disagree with you. I’m coming at it entirely from a legal perspective and whether or not the C&D actually has teeth in this case.

I’m actually rather annoyed he created a GoFundMe before he ever consulted with a lawyer. I know damn well he didn’t have an initial consultation at this point, and he just picked a number based on whatever. Most lawyers do an initial consultation for free or a minor fee.

 

[Quiet]

I don’t disagree with you. I’m coming at it entirely from a legal perspective and whether or not the C&D actually has teeth in this case.

I’m actually rather annoyed he created a GoFundMe before he ever consulted with a lawyer. I know damn well he didn’t have an initial consultation at this point, and he just picked a number based on whatever. Most lawyers do an initial consultation for free or a minor fee.

You and I are in agreement entirely on the GFM situation. As has been covered, I don't believe RHK actually wants to sue over this either. He most likely just wants it to go away, which is why he demanded an apology and not "You owe us $385,000 for lost sales" or whatever other stupid number to be pulled from Rick's fifth point of contact. The fact that TK is doubling down, and thus egos are now involved is what makes this such a possible powder keg. Like others have said, I'm not sure that a judge would accept the whole "actual damages", although a competent lawyer on RHK's behalf could take the time to go through every single comment on TK's IG and look into every single person who said "Hinderers are trash, I'll never buy another, and I'm going to sell mine!" and then take the time to track down exactly how far this had spread (reposts, reposting the livestreams, discussing on other forums, etc.). That could technically form the basis for a tangible financial harm claim. I'm not sure, though. I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on TV.

 

[EngrSorenson]

I’m coming at it entirely from a legal perspective and whether or not the C&D actually has teeth in this case.

Yeah, I don't think many of us are really qualified to assess the threat level here, but at the very least I think letters from lawyers tend to make our backsides clinch a little tighter regardless.

I’m actually rather annoyed he created a GoFundMe before he ever consulted with a lawyer. I know damn well he didn’t have an initial consultation at this point, and he just picked a number based on whatever. Most lawyers do an initial consultation for free or a minor fee.

If you ask me, that's consistent with Brian Kim's problem: he clearly isn't putting the work in up front to protect himself.

 

[TickTock]

This is all fine and good, but the negatives portrayed by TK in his video weren’t about the testing, but the actual RC range. Multiple people in this thread have stated that financial liability in this case is virtually a non-starter. I don’t expect RHK will actually file suit at this point, because proving the four aspects of a defamation suit is incredibly difficult and the jurisdiction in which he would have to sue might take action against him if they deem it to be a lawsuit attempting to discourage public participation.

I doubt RHK would even get anything if they sued, he's a kid working out of his parents garage

I don’t disagree with you. I’m coming at it entirely from a legal perspective and whether or not the C&D actually has teeth in this case.

I’m actually rather annoyed he created a GoFundMe before he ever consulted with a lawyer. I know damn well he didn’t have an initial consultation at this point, and he just picked a number based on whatever. Most lawyers do an initial consultation for free or a minor fee.

How are you so sure about that? I think he stated in a recent post that his sister was a lawyer...

 

[Murdamook]

My first comment is off-topic and neither here nor there.
The balls on that guy to define for Rick Hinderer what the range should be, in the first place.
Do I believe that Rick Hinderer probably likes the smell of his own farts? absolutely!
I also believe he's earned a little respect from Youtube guys.

Secondly, more on topic and from my point of view, the part that's grieving Rick Hinderer the most is all the emails asking about the hardness of the steel of his products.
That much is due to the fallout from Brian Kim publishing figures out of his basement.

I begrudge no business owner the right to protect his product from another business owner.
This is why it's always important to use phrases like, "In my opinion" or "In my experience" when you're commenting on a product, particularly as someone representing a business.

Well, fortunately for TK, the legal system in that aspect isn’t as pedantic as people make it seem. Certain RC numbers are factually less effective when it comes to steel and cutting, this is a fact. What is open to interpretation is, once the knife reaches a usable hardness, what is optimal? TK saying the HT is suboptimal for m390 because you lose the edge holding capability that you’d have at higher RC. That’s a factual statement but still a statement of perspective and opinion, which would make it hard to litigate.

 

[3D Anvil]

I don't think Brian's statements were false or misleading, so I don't see any reason for him to retract them. I mean, what is Hinderer going to do, sue every reviewer who says something negative about one of his knives? Because Brian certainly isn't the only one who has done so. Why doesn't he go after Nick Shabbaz for trashing the XM-18 3"? I mean, that guy has almost 150k followers on Youtube! Think of the damage to poor Rick's reputation!

 

[Murdamook]

I doubt RHK would even get anything if they sued, he's a kid working out of his parents garage


How are you so sure about that? I think he stated in a recent post that his sister was a lawyer...

I’m not 100% sure. Based on his nervous reaction, his random number he chose to work toward, the quickness of him posting his GFM, and the fact that he seemingly had no new information, I am making an educated guess. I was prelaw before I went into IT, my brother in law is an attorney, and one of my friends is an attorney. Most lawyers tend to hyper focus and remembering case law from irrelevant fields within lawyering is unlikely. So, if his sister isn’t in IP/Libel/etc., then taking her opinion and not seeking out the opinion of a lawyer who deals in that field specifically is still not advisable and he still jumped the gun.

 

[SimplyMinded]

Has anyone ever tested any of this TK's work? Maybe they should.

 

[Murdamook]

You and I are in agreement entirely on the GFM situation. As has been covered, I don't believe RHK actually wants to sue over this either. He most likely just wants it to go away, which is why he demanded an apology and not "You owe us $385,000 for lost sales" or whatever other stupid number to be pulled from Rick's fifth point of contact. The fact that TK is doubling down, and thus egos are now involved is what makes this such a possible powder keg. Like others have said, I'm not sure that a judge would accept the whole "actual damages", although a competent lawyer on RHK's behalf could take the time to go through every single comment on TK's IG and look into every single person who said "Hinderers are trash, I'll never buy another, and I'm going to sell mine!" and then take the time to track down exactly how far this had spread (reposts, reposting the livestreams, discussing on other forums, etc.). That could technically form the basis for a tangible financial harm claim. I'm not sure, though. I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on TV.

They should just fight, stream it on RHK’s YouTube, then winner gets the meager ad revenue.

 

[EngrSorenson]

Well, fortunately for TK, the legal system in that aspect isn’t as pedantic as people make it seem. Certain RC numbers are factually less effective when it comes to steel and cutting, this is a fact. What is open to interpretation is, once the knife reaches a usable hardness, what is optimal? TK saying the HT is suboptimal for m390 because you lose the edge holding capability that you’d have at higher RC. That’s a factual statement but still a statement of perspective and opinion, which would make it hard to litigate.

Do you think that you could believe that, had Brian Kim not posted the "lack luster" 58.6 HRC figure, this whole thing might have been avoided?

My personal opinion is the issue lives and dies with that. If I had to guess, I'd say that's probably what started the emails to RH, and the emails are how RH likely found out about it.
Without data, it's just another guy blabbing about his opinions.

 

[Quiet]

They should just fight, stream it on RHK’s YouTube, then winner gets the meager ad revenue.

.....For the record, I've got $50 on Rick with the folding chair in Round 2.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

I’m not taking anyone’s “side” in this, however, there are a LOT more ways to have handled this than a C&D letter. Hinderer gave this TK guy the fuel.

So one dude on IG or facebook or whatever said something. Ya, social media is powerful. Why didn’t RHK decide to use it to his advantage??

“Hey TK, I do run my blades at the low end of the HT approved spectrum. I’ll tell ya what…I’ll send you one of my knives, you send me one of yours and we will both do real world tests and post them.”

That is one option. Instead of preserving and proving why RHK does what they do, RHK decided to whine.

Biggest blunder here is that RHK went the “pushy” way (totally their right), instead of the “man up” route.

Again, I remain unsure if the C&D was the absolute best route to go, but I know that my lawyer would absolutely destroy me if I went on social media to engage with someone like that if there was even the smallest chance it might eventually become any kind of legal matter.

Sending a C&D leaves you a lot of possible directions to go, entering a statement into the public record directly addressing a competing business that's making statements about your business may actual limit you a hell of a lot more than a C&D will.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

Again, I remain unsure if the C&D was the absolute best route to go, but I know that my lawyer would absolutely destroy me if I went on social media to engage with someone like that if there was even the smallest chance it might eventually become any kind of legal matter.

Sending a C&D leaves you a lot of possible directions to go, entering a statement into the public record directly addressing a competing business that's making statements about your business may actual limit you a hell of a lot more than a C&D will.

I agree with this.

 

[ferider]

I don't think Brian's statements were false or misleading, so I don't see any reason for him to retract them. I mean, what is Hinderer going to do, sue every reviewer who says something negative about one of his knives? Because Brian certainly isn't the only one who has done so. Why doesn't he go after Nick Shabbaz for trashing the XM-18 3"? I mean, that guy has almost 150k followers on Youtube! Think of the damage to poor Rick's reputation!

Because, for instance, Nick doesn't accuse Rick of incompetence and being cheap, without any factual background.