Robbed of $1500 by Crusader Forge Knives

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Thomas Linton said:
If it were me, I'd sue. Whatever else is going on, they did not keep the contract.
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More likely, the best path would be to get in touch with his State Attorney General and file a formal complaint. If you sue you get your money back if you win, but on a case this small no attorney will do more than write a nasty letter. It simply isn't enough money to interest them. If he recovered all of his money, then paid out 40% for attorney's fees, he wouldn't have much. Remember, in a case like this there is no "pain and suffering", no punitive dollar amounts or any of that other business we see in the news or on TV shows. The litmus test for the law is easy; how much monetary loss did Joe actually suffer, and realizing there is an inherent risk in doing business, what will it take to make him whole?

Depending on the judge, Joe may not even get his attorney's fees back if it goes the wrong way.

On the other hand, if you get the AG interested and make your case in a criminal court, the only way Crusader can get out of it is to refund all the money or supply the finished goods in a reasonable amount of time (which has no doubt passed), thereby making Joe "whole", meaning he suffered no loss at the end of the process. In my state (Texas) this problem falls in the area of small claims court (any claim $2500 and less) so all that is needed is to go get on the docket and make an intelligent, compelling case to the judge. No lawyers needed.

As a contractor, dealing with subcontractors that don't deliver specific goods or services as agreed to is right in my wheel house. Since the criminal judge can issue a judgement, you can really get those guys screwed for future business loans, future rental of property, and in some cases credit.

A little research can go a long way in this matter.

Robert
 
gte217e said:
I am a dealer for Crusader Forge and can confirm that this is how the ordering process with Crusader Forge is.
First of all, I have to say that Kathy and Maciej are wonderful people. I met them for the first time at last year's USN Gathering and they are just extremely nice. I don't believe there is one mean bone in their bodies. Maciej is also a volunteer firefighter and that takes up a lot of his time.

My first order with Crusader Forge was for 3 folders and 3 fixed blades. It took 1 year to get the folders and more than 2 years to get the fixed blades.

The second order from them took about 8 months and the third order took about the same amount of time.

Prior to ordering, I knew that it was going to take a while and we were prepared to put aside some funds and wait. For an end user, that is usually not desirable.

Kathy's default response will always be "2 weeks." She tells that to everyone, including us. There is always a delay. There is always something else going on. That is just how Crusader Forge is if you want to deal directly with them.

I am not sure why Crusader Forge even entertains the idea that they should sell directly to the end consumer; it doesn't make sense for a shop that small to take on thousands of orders from thousands of individuals. It takes custom software just to sort my customers and make sure things run smoothly; and my business partner is a freakin' software engineer.

Based on the way I see things handled in the feedback about them, in my mind I see Kathy using spreadsheet software from MS DOS 6.11
This is unfortunate because I really like their folders and I am not the only one.

I hope that you guys don't treat Kathy and Maciej with any disrespect at the Blade Show despite how orders are being handled. After speaking with them, it does not feel like they are out to make enemies. It seems as though they are overwhelmed with the demand and being a small shop, it is difficult for them to catch up. When Kathy says "two weeks" I feel like she is a die-hard optimist and she truly thinks and wants the knives to be ready by then.

I'd recommend against purchasing a knife directly from them as it is truly a hassle and instead go through a dealer that doesn't jack up the prices.
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I spoke to Kathy many times. She was very pleasant, we've had long conversations that were not about my order but about personal things. I was curious to hear about Maciejs past and how he became a knife maker, everything was all hunky dory. I would have had no problem if she told me the knives will take another year. My problem is that she told me 3 weeks, they took my money, that was not credit card, it was cash from my bank account. I'm not rich, $1474 is a heck of a lot of money. I bust my hump for that money. They took my money, they are ignoring my requests for refund, even for the $375 remaining there. You are correct, they have no business taking orders, she is not qualified or capable of managing the orders. She had no idea what I ordered, she had no idea what she had wrote to me in emails. They may seem to be very "Nice" and "sweet" but I don't like to be pooped on, even if the person pooping on me is really polite about it.
 
smcjoecohen@yahoo said:
I spoke to Kathy many times. She was very pleasant, we've had long conversations that were not about my order but about personal things. I was curious to hear about Maciejs past and how he became a knife maker, everything was all hunky dory. I would have had no problem if she told me the knives will take another year. My problem is that she told me 3 weeks, they took my money, that was not credit card, it was cash from my bank account. I'm not rich, $1474 is a heck of a lot of money. I bust my hump for that money. They took my money, they are ignoring my requests for refund, even for the $375 remaining there. You are correct, they have no business taking orders, she is not qualified or capable of managing the orders. She had no idea what I ordered, she had no idea what she had wrote to me in emails. They may seem to be very "Nice" and "sweet" but I don't like to be pooped on, even if the person pooping on me is really polite about it.
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I'm not a lawyer and this would not be considered legal advice but just a personal opinion.

He cannot do what he did. You had a contract with him to do the first knife, as described, for $775. A person cannot unilaterally change the terms of the contract. He cannot change material or change price without your consent. To do so would be considered a clear breach of contract which makes the entire transaction null and void. Keep in mind that a contract does not have to be a formal document, signed and notarized. A simple email stating the terms (which you have) or even a verbal agreement (much harder to prove) also constitute legally binding contracts.

This breach of contract giving you the option of getting a full refund (you'll still have to return the knife) from him. Of course, you would have to pursue this in some form of civil court (small claims probably) and that may or may not be worth it to you.

At a minimum, I would contact a lawyer to send him a letter explaining this breach of contract and see how he reacts. Filing a formal complaint with the SAG (as suggested by midnight flyer) is another very solid move to consider.

Again, JMO. I hate folks who pull this kind of crap as they know (in most cases) that the consumer is not well aware of his rights and take advantage of that fact.

Best of luck.
 
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SaintlyBrees said:
I'm not a lawyer and this would not be considered legal advice but just a personal opinion.

He cannot do what he did. You had a contract with him to do the first knife, as described, for $775. A person cannot unilaterally change the terms of the contract. He cannot change material or change price without your consent. To do so would be considered a clear breach of contract which makes the entire transaction null and void. Keep in mind that a contract does not have to be a formal document, signed and notarized. A simple email stating the terms (which you have) or even a verbal agreement (much harder to prove) also constitute legally binding contracts.

This breach of contract giving you the option of getting a full refund (you'll still have to return the knife) from him. Of course, you would have to pursue this in some form of civil court (small claims probably) and that may or may not be worth it to you.

At a minimum, I would contact a lawyer to send him a letter explaining this breach of contract and see how he reacts.

Again, JMO. I hate folks who pull this kind of crap as they know (in most cases) that the consumer is not well aware of his rights and take advantage of that fact.

Best of luck.
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Sounds like a good idea, if it were me I would take every step to roast them at the stake, but that's just me. :rolleyes:
 
Send the knife back for a full refund. They will have to give you a refund.
They added on things you didn't order, and even charged you for them. Unbelievable that they would that:thumbdn:
Not to mention its not even the knife you ordered.

If they don't give you the money back right away I would take legal action, though I don't think you'll have to go that route.
Good luck.
 
Would he be entitled to some form of interest on his money if he sued? Had that money not been tied up for over year it could have been in some form of retirement plan or other investment. I'm not a lawyer but, the argument seems logical to me. The only defense I can come up with is that the money was disposable income not destined for investment regardless of making the purchase. Seems like that point could be argued fairly strongly if he has other investments.
 
Why does every thief have an apologist?

On the plus side, two more companies added to the "never, ever do business with" list.

The thieves and their apologist.

Sorry that the knowledge gained was at the expense of the OP.
 
Exactly,

It never ceases to amaze me that people will defend poor fraudulent business practices with "they are nice people". What does that have to do with running an honest business. Nice people don't take your money and not deliver your product, nice people don't refuse to give you a refund when you are not given what was promised, nice people don't ask for more money for something you didn't ask for.

BTW here is an example of a nice person and great customer service:
I have been trying to buy a RJ Martin anything (Q36, DRT, modulator w/e), I finally found RJ's contact and he politely responded that due to overwhelming demand he couldn't take more orders and has to focus on finishing orders. He suggested I try the lotto route at shows and some dealers. While this sadden me from a collectors standpoint it also increase my desire to own one of his knives. The guy was honest and unwilling to take my money because he knew he couldn't make me a knife. Reputable makers don't take money if they can't make your knife, that is the lesson I learned.

JohnWE said:
Why does every thief have an apologist?

On the plus side, two more companies added to the "never, ever do business with" list.

The thieves and their apologist.

Sorry that the knowledge gained was at the expense of the OP.
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Rubicon_Joey said:
Would he be entitled to some form of interest on his money if he sued? Had that money not been tied up for over year it could have been in some form of retirement plan or other investment. I'm not a lawyer but, the argument seems logical to me. The only defense I can come up with is that the money was disposable income not destined for investment regardless of making the purchase. Seems like that point could be argued fairly strongly if he has other investments.
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No interest can be recovered. That isn't the way the law works. If you go after the alleged knife maker in criminal court, a judge or judge/jury can find guilt and then you are punishable in a clearly defined way (with some judicial leeway) within certain parameters set out in the law. There is no punitive action awarded to the aggrieved party.

If you go after the alleged knife maker in civil court, you have to prove the actual amount of damages you suffered at the hands of (in this case) the knife maker. Once proven, you can then sue for damages and ask for a more money based on the amount the court finds you actually lost. The amount awarded by the court can also include court fees, attorney's fees as well as pain and suffering.

Let's say that Joe (for the sake of round numbers) gave Crusader $1200 that they sat on for a year. My bank's CD rate at this time is .20%. So (non compounded, this is for illustration only) an approximate amount of money lost in interest by Joe is $2.40. Do the math... it is ugly. And there is a legal caveat that sets precedence about the loss of use of money in consumer related affairs but I don't remember what it is; just that it doesn't apply.

That is why I said to take it to the AG, perhaps Crusader's city district attorney to show them apparent criminal behavior, and even the Better Business Bureau.

This has small claims court written all over it. Although Joe won't get any large punitive damages, he can be made whole again (get his money back) and the judge has the power to make Crusader pay for court costs and attorney's fees if any.

Robert
 
The prisons are full of "nice" people... How many times have we heard, " I can't believe he did this. He is such a nice person" ?

Nice people don't knowingly steal from others. Criminals do.... I hope you pursue legal action, and get your money back. I'm sure you aren't the only person this has happened to, and you won't be the last, unless something is done about their criminal practices.
 
Sorry to hear of your situation and it doesn't sound like these people run a decent business even if the maker does fight fires on weekends and always kisses babies.

I am wondering if their name change has anything to do with their business practices?

When making a purchase of this size it's always prudent to pay by Credit card. No product or wrong product delivered, you have recourse.
 
Saddens me to hear about this. I had a Crusader Forge knife for a short time and it was an amazing knife. I had plans to purchase another one but I'll be steering clear after hearing about your fiasco.

I hope you get your money back and somehow they make it right. Honestly, after all you've been through, I don't think just refunding your money would make it right. I'd say, partial refund + the knife (knives?) you ordered with a hefty discount would be proper retribution.

One other thing, what is it with knife makers these days? Seems like there are quite a few cases like these.
 
I have had a bad experience with Crusader as well! I ordered a knife from them oh geez prob a year and a half ago?! Kathy told me they could do it in a few months but didnt ask for a deposit thank god?! Communication the whole time was at best very poor! I had to call and call and call and email and email just to get any info from them! Maybe six months ago I was told my knife was on the bench and shud be ready soon! I said great cant wait! I have emailed multiple times since and have gotten no response?! Even before seeing this post I was gonna say forget it as I had a bad taste in my mouth!! I will now email them and demand that they take care of the OP here! There is no excuse for such lack of professionalism and communication and then to almost double the price in the end without ever asking the customer about the extras?!! CRUSADER CROOK FORGE!!!
 
338375 said:
The prisons are full of "nice" people... How many times have we heard, " I can't believe he did this. He is such a nice person" ?

Nice people don't knowingly steal from others. Criminals do.... I hope you pursue legal action, and get your money back. I'm sure you aren't the only person this has happened to, and you won't be the last, unless something is done about their criminal practices.
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One can easily see the nice guy personality of the maker and his ditzy but lovable sidekick at the next knife exposition taking their dog and pony show with them to gather the next herd of sheep to be sheared. Since that is coming up, maybe contacting the event sponsors would be in order as well.

Rhinoknives1 said:
When making a purchase of this size it's always prudent to pay by Credit card. No product or wrong product delivered, you have recourse.
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I buy a lot of stuff online for my business. Saw blades, extension cords, saws, drills, bits, etc. Even my computers. I never know where I will be buying from, and don't always take the lowest price as I put a 90% value in dependability and reliability, and 10% on price. And if they don't take American Express I usually don't buy from them, period.

Robert
 
In response to Mr. Cohen’s accusations;
It is not my way of dealing with any customer’s issues/complains over an “internet forum”
However, this post presents only one side of the story as interpreted by Mr. Cohen. This goes out to all of you that follow up on the post with your “legal advice” etc. and to all our friends supporting us “Thank you”. Please understand that accusations might be far from the actual issues.
Regardless, I Do Not Wish to resolve any private business matters over the “internet forum”. My goal as a custom knife maker is to make you, the customer, a knife that suits your specifications. Mr. Cohen has received my knives and exchanged them etc. I can only hope that I can create something to meet his specifications.

With kind regards,
Maciej
 
Crusader Forge said:
In response to Mr. Cohen’s accusations;
It is not my way of dealing with any customer’s issues/complains over an “internet forum”
However, this post presents only one side of the story as interpreted by Mr. Cohen. This goes out to all of you that follow up on the post with your “legal advice” etc. and to all our friends supporting us “Thank you”. Please understand that accusations might be far from the actual issues.
Regardless, I Do Not Wish to resolve any private business matters over the “internet forum”. My goal as a custom knife maker is to make you, the customer, a knife that suits your specifications. Mr. Cohen has received my knives and exchanged them etc. I can only hope that I can create something to meet his specifications.

With kind regards,
Maciej
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We have seen this before. Doesn't have to explain to the public. Above all that.

You have no excuse if one story is accepted when there is only one story - plus documentation and other stories from other customers to the same effect: takes $$; does not deliver as agreed.
 
Crusader Forge said:
In response to Mr. Cohen’s accusations;
It is not my way of dealing with any customer’s issues/complains over an “internet forum”
However, this post presents only one side of the story as interpreted by Mr. Cohen. This goes out to all of you that follow up on the post with your “legal advice” etc. and to all our friends supporting us “Thank you”. Please understand that accusations might be far from the actual issues.
Regardless, I Do Not Wish to resolve any private business matters over the “internet forum”. My goal as a custom knife maker is to make you, the customer, a knife that suits your specifications. Mr. Cohen has received my knives and exchanged them etc. I can only hope that I can create something to meet his specifications.

With kind regards,
Maciej
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Fail.
 
Nice of you to reply Maciej,

However, it might be in your best interest to at least give some level of incite into the situation since a good amount of people on these forums represent the main buyers of your products. Myself included! So, as of right now, there is a blemish on your record that should be rectified to some degree on this public forum.

...........just my 2 pennies
 
They have picked up the shovel, now lets see if they will dig with.....
There are two ways out of ruining your public figure here....
1. Admit your wrong doing and try to make things right.
2. Present your side of the story and disprove the accusations

Any other actions at best leave you with his accusations being taken as the truth.
 
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midnight flyer said:
No interest can be recovered. That isn't the way the law works. If you go after the alleged knife maker in criminal court, a judge or judge/jury can find guilt and then you are punishable in a clearly defined way (with some judicial leeway) within certain parameters set out in the law. There is no punitive action awarded to the aggrieved party.

If you go after the alleged knife maker in civil court, you have to prove the actual amount of damages you suffered at the hands of (in this case) the knife maker. Once proven, you can then sue for damages and ask for a more money based on the amount the court finds you actually lost. The amount awarded by the court can also include court fees, attorney's fees as well as pain and suffering.

Let's say that Joe (for the sake of round numbers) gave Crusader $1200 that they sat on for a year. My bank's CD rate at this time is .20%. So (non compounded, this is for illustration only) an approximate amount of money lost in interest by Joe is $2.40. Do the math... it is ugly. And there is a legal caveat that sets precedence about the loss of use of money in consumer related affairs but I don't remember what it is; just that it doesn't apply.

. . .

This has small claims court written all over it. Although Joe won't get any large punitive damages, he can be made whole again (get his money back) and the judge has the power to make Crusader pay for court costs and attorney's fees if any.

Robert
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Law varies by state, not to mention by legal "opinion." In some states, deliberate breach of contract is a tort, giving rise to tort damages - more than merely making the plaintiff as well off as he would have been if the defendant performed his promise.

Attorney fees are rarely recoverable for breach of contract. (The "American Rule") Losers usually have to pay court costs.

You sue for damages and then have to prove them, not the other way around. Here, you could sue to get your money back - what you paid

AG's are elected officials with limited budgets and jurisdiction only in their state.

If the US Mails were used in this deal, there is a chance of getting the Postal Inspectors to consider mail fraud since there seems to be a pattern of taking money and not delivering the goods ordered.

As always, legal advice in the Internet needs the proverbial "grain of salt."
 
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