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jrawk said:
Reverse Tanto is what the modern tactical crowd calls a sheepfoot with a belly. It's really okay guys. nothing new to be afraid of.
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I think the modern tactical crowd call them "reverse tanto" blades, because a sheepsfoot with a belly is precisely that- look at the mini-griptilian's "sheepsfoot". A tanto blade is a fairly established thing, and one would think that a "reverse tanto" should look like a tanto which was reversed! A reverse of those "bellied reverse tantos" would instead render some kind of drop point tanto thing that we've never encountered before.

Not to mention that a reverse tanto is really just a sheepfoot/coping blade. If you look at the original sloyd design, it's pretty much that. I think Blue Spruce makes a modern sloyd that has a more exaggerated angle which is even more "reverse tanto" ish.

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I don't think anyone's afraid of them- that's a little flippant. What's his face- SMKW designer of the kayak- selected two blades that just dont make a lot of sense. the exact same functionality could have been gained with more traditional blades that have more aesthetically pleasing lines to match the curvature of an otherwise interesting pattern.
 
I picked up a RR small toothpick in the cinnamon stag bone, and the workmanship is excellent. But I'm not thrilled about the marketing (calling it authentic stag bone).
I guess it's not a lie, but it's not exactly upfront either. In any event, it's a really nice knife. I just don't know why it has taken SMKW so long to put them on their website, and last I checked, they only had the toothpick in stock. I had to buy mine from another vendor. I mean really, SMKW owns the brand, so what's up with other sellers having them a couple of weeks before SMKW has them in stock? I even called to ask about buying one, and they couldn't tell me why they didn't have them or even give me any specs on the knives.
 
EngrSorenson said:
I think the modern tactical crowd call them "reverse tanto" blades, because a sheepsfoot with a belly is precisely that- look at the mini-griptilian's "sheepsfoot". A tanto blade is a fairly established thing, and one would think that a "reverse tanto" should look like a tanto which was reversed! A reverse of those "bellied reverse tantos" would instead render some kind of drop point tanto thing that we've never encountered before.

Not to mention that a reverse tanto is really just a sheepfoot/coping blade. If you look at the original sloyd design, it's pretty much that. I think Blue Spruce makes a modern sloyd that has a more exaggerated angle which is even more "reverse tanto" ish.

EvTNQdm.png


I don't think anyone's afraid of them- that's a little flippant. What's his face- SMKW designer of the kayak- selected two blades that just dont make a lot of sense. the exact same functionality could have been gained with more traditional blades that have more aesthetically pleasing lines to match the curvature of an otherwise interesting pattern.
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I was once accused here of nitpicking a cap lifter blade on a trestle pines grand portage, but this takes nitpicking to a whole new level. Relax, partner.
 
jrawk said:
I was once accused here of nitpicking a cap lifter blade on a trestle pines grand portage, but this takes nitpicking to a whole new level. Relax, partner.
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Sir, don’t mistake discernment with nit picking. You were writing off the concerns regarding the blade choices and making a false statement regarding a well defined modern blade style.

jrawk said:
Reverse Tanto is what the modern tactical crowd calls a sheepfoot with a belly.
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this isn’t true.

jrawk said:
It's really okay guys. nothing new to be afraid of.
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What’s your point? That you think these blades are reasonable choices for a traditional folder and familiar the blade style is familiar to you? Speak plainly and avoid hyperbole.

It seems the popular opinion that these blades on the kayak were not well designed, and I agree. They do not have any additional function beyond more traditional choices and look garishly modern/tactical.
 
EngrSorenson said:
I think the modern tactical crowd call them "reverse tanto" blades, because a sheepsfoot with a belly is precisely that- look at the mini-griptilian's "sheepsfoot". A tanto blade is a fairly established thing, and one would think that a "reverse tanto" should look like a tanto which was reversed! A reverse of those "bellied reverse tantos" would instead render some kind of drop point tanto thing that we've never encountered before.

Not to mention that a reverse tanto is really just a sheepfoot/coping blade. If you look at the original sloyd design, it's pretty much that. I think Blue Spruce makes a modern sloyd that has a more exaggerated angle which is even more "reverse tanto" ish.

EvTNQdm.png


I don't think anyone's afraid of them- that's a little flippant. What's his face- SMKW designer of the kayak- selected two blades that just dont make a lot of sense. the exact same functionality could have been gained with more traditional blades that have more aesthetically pleasing lines to match the curvature of an otherwise interesting pattern.
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A reverse tanto is not that Slojd pattern. A reverse tanto can have belly too...or not. Google images can be your friend :)
 
EngrSorenson said:
It seems the popular opinion that these blades on the kayak were not well designed, and I agree. They do not have any additional function beyond more traditional choices and look garishly modern/tactical.
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Ok I'm going to play a bit of devil's advocate here:
I think the Kayak as they call it isn't traditional, it is however a slipjoint. In my opinion and mine alone,being as it is NOT a true traditional pattern it isn't bound to having traditional blade shapes. Of the three patterns discussed it is my least favorite for sure,but to someone else who likes modern blade shapes it may be appealing. And as such may lead them into trying a slippie, and maybe that would lead to trying out actual traditional knives. I feel the EO jack is a traditional pattern with a traditional blade shape,although the two together is an odd choice. But I feel that being that both the general pattern and blade shape has been around a long time its plausible that it could have been tried before. Odd ducks turn up from time to time, there's a serpentine jack with a punch over on the HJ thread. I'd venture to say thats fairly uncommon. If we dismiss the EO because of the handle material then we'd also have to dismiss quite a few knives from GEC as traditionals as well. I think once you separate the Kayak from the term "traditional" it falls into the same category as say a Benchmade Proper. So the the argument over non-traditional blades becomes moot since in reality it isn't a traditional at all.
 
brownshoe said:
A reverse tanto is not that Slojd pattern. A reverse tanto can have belly too...or not. Google images can be your friend :)
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( Misplaced Hillbilly Misplaced Hillbilly , didn’t want to quote the long post, but also in response to you :))

I just want throw out there that I know SMKW’s is deliberately trying to do something noticeably different, but in so doing made poor selection that would prevent me from getting one. The genesis of this current discussion comes from JRawk making the statement, “Reverse Tanto is what the modern tactical crowd calls a sheepfoot with a belly. It's really okay guys. nothing new to be afraid of.”.
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The primary blade is one small rounded corner from a Zulu spear point.
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and the secondary could have easily been a lambsfoot, sheepsfoot or coping blade.
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So the idea that SMKW has done something novel as a modern slipjoint for a modern “tactical“ (or whatever you want to call it) folder is thinly veiled at best. Add a slight corner and just say they are both “reverse tantos”?

And then furthering my crusade to challenge modern definitions for knife blades, here’s a modern “sheepsfoot” and two “reverse tanto”. To my eye it looks substantially like there is no difference, which leads me to believe that there is no such thing as a reverse tanto with a belly.
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The point is ultimately, in my opinion, that the kayak is an odd duck with very little substance to the blade design/choices. It could have been a lot better with even just a few tweaks. At the very least folks would have to admit that it’s super weird that the secondary blade is thicker from edge to spine than the primary.
 
EngrSorenson EngrSorenson perhaps it could said that there’s much in this knifey world of ours in the last few years where the lines between form and function have become blurred.

Perhaps too, some blade shape development has become a vehicle to simply create style and maybe commercial opportunity....? Who knows :)

Whatever, it certainly has created more variety and a massive developing market ......a market where the Far East now plays a bigger role than it ever used to by also contributing to a far larger proportion of higher end knives and models - even Harley Davidsons - who’d have thought that ten years ago..!!

This is a forum, so it’s fun to debate and discuss anyway :thumbsup: The new Reserve models may float many people’s boat while others may see it/them as a gimmick possibly and not go near, and some’ll stay away for personal reasons......... they’re all correct, yet we’re not wrong either ;)

Like the examples you have shown. Have often thought how similar the Native blade is to the Lambsfoot (and the newer Dino)...........but what the heck, they're all cool :thumbsup::cool:
 
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For what its worth, there are a few of us in the UK that are keeping an eye out for the release of the Kayak over here.

We seem to be quite curious and will be getting it . . . firstly because its an unusual pattern and we want to try it out. Second, we want to see if Rough Rider really will up there game in the fit and finish area.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that i will really like it.

As you may, or may not know. In the UK, in general, we can only carry sub 3" edge non locking folding knives. We can carry others knives if we can show a darn good reason for it, but it gets into waters that are a little murkier then.

So . . . a new slipjoint is looked at quite closely, especially if it is something not seen before.

Personally, i'm very envious of you guys over the pond having access to so many wonderful slipjoint knives. Be they traditional, modern traditional or custom. I would LOVE to get hold of one or two examples from . . . say . . GEC. (Northfields and Tidioute.)

Be easier to get blood from a stone . . lol
 
Ruukuu said:
I would LOVE to get hold of one or two examples from . . . say . . GEC. (Northfields and Tidioute.)

Be easier to get blood from a stone . . lol
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- will message you some links, Mik
 
EngrSorenson EngrSorenson
I agree that what they call the blade shapes on modern knives doesn't seem consistent. Such as with most "tactical" manufacturers the "wharncliffe" became all the rage a few years ago. And many slapped that label on blades nowhere resembling a true wharncliffe. Example 20201004_095322.jpg I wouldn't call ANY of these a wharncliffe, yet this is from an article about "wharncliffe" knives o_O I did some research into the wharncliffe and found that historically it referred to the entire knife and not just the blade. And also knives that were of a particular pattern but didn't have what we'd call a wharncliffe blade today. The closest production knife today to Lord Wharncliffe's original design is the Case seahorse whittler, it is a dead ringer. But to muddy the waters back in Lord Wharncliffe's day knives with the same handle shape was called wharncliffe knives as well. To that end back then a GEC farmers jack could be called a wharncliffe as well. Seems there's always been blurred lines in the cutlery business o_O
 
Chui said:
EngrSorenson EngrSorenson perhaps it could said that there’s much in this knifey world of ours in the last few years where the lines between form and function have become blurred.

Perhaps too, some blade shape development has become a vehicle to simply create style and maybe commercial opportunity....? Who knows :)
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yeah, I think me having to state my case a few times has made my position on the kayak feel stronger than it is. You’re definitely right- lines are blurred and I think largely because Most producers of knives aren’t interested in Developing meaningful names for things. Like the “blonde stout” in the beer world- the need to sell things has lead to creativity but more meaningless names.

I’m all for furthering our technology and choices in knives- I just think this forum thread was geared towards a critical look at these particular RRR, which I’m happy to do- unfortunately that means it’s subjective rather than objective.

Ruukuu said:
For what its worth, there are a few of us in the UK that are keeping an eye out for the release of the Kayak over here.

We seem to be quite curious and will be getting it . . . firstly because its an unusual pattern and we want to try it out. Second, we want to see if Rough Rider really will up there game in the fit and finish area.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that i will really like it.
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And I sincerely hope you like it, too! :) In fact I signed up for the alert when SMKW gets them in stock, because of the three offered it would be the most tempting. I have over analyzed that knife and picked it apart because I’m in an honest effort to figure out if that’s something I want to buy.


Ruukuu said:
As you may, or may not know. In the UK, in general, we can only carry sub 3" edge non locking folding knives. We can carry others knives if we can show a darn good reason for it, but it gets into waters that are a little murkier then.

So . . . a new slipjoint is looked at quite closely, especially if it is something not seen before.

Personally, i'm very envious of you guys over the pond having access to so many wonderful slipjoint knives. Be they traditional, modern traditional or custom. I would LOVE to get hold of one or two examples from . . . say . . GEC. (Northfields and Tidioute.)

Be easier to get blood from a stone . . lol
Click to expand...

Yeah, unfortunately I’ve become aware of the laws in the UK regarding firearms and knives. Needless to say I’m not happy to see my knife-toting brothers so restricted.

The great makers over there seem not what they used to be- a shame considering the great heritage of pocket cutlery. There’s obliviously exceptions- I see tremendous custom work coming out of the UK.

Over here schrade, Camillus and others aren’t what they used to be. Queen and Canal street closed shop. That leaves fewer options, unfortunately.

I find myself disenchanted with Case- a long time favorite of mine until a few recent botched knives. GEC makes great knives at a snails pace and the scramble can make it hard to get what you want. I can’t afford customs, though I wish I could!!

this is why I’m hoping for good things from RRR. It seems possible!

edit: typo
 
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Misplaced Hillbilly said:
EngrSorenson EngrSorenson
I agree that what they call the blade shapes on modern knives doesn't seem consistent. Such as with most "tactical" manufacturers the "wharncliffe" became all the rage a few years ago. And many slapped that label on blades nowhere resembling a true wharncliffe. Example View attachment 1431156 I wouldn't call ANY of these a wharncliffe, yet this is from an article about "wharncliffe" knives o_O I did some research into the wharncliffe and found that historically it referred to the entire knife and not just the blade. And also knives that were of a particular pattern but didn't have what we'd call a wharncliffe blade today. The closest production knife today to Lord Wharncliffe's original design is the Case seahorse whittler, it is a dead ringer. But to muddy the waters back in Lord Wharncliffe's day knives with the same handle shape was called wharncliffe knives as well. To that end back then a GEC farmers jack could be called a wharncliffe as well. Seems there's always been blurred lines in the cutlery business o_O
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You’re absolutely correct that things evolve! The original barlow knife doesn’t like what we know today. Change is inevitable, terms get used differently, language evolves over time.

I think to your excellent point, and I’d take it another step to say that this modern day has change happening over night As opposed to decades or centuries.

to bring it back to the kayak, I think the reason some folks like myself are reluctant about the blade choices is because there’s relatively little precedent for something like this, and there’s no real benefit over tried and true “traditional” offerings for blade choices.
 
Personally, I find everything about SMKW gimmicky and bordering on slimey. It's like I'm always waiting for the ShamWoW guy to pop on the screen and start hawking knives. They come off like the old commercials with the "brilliant genuine cubic zirconia 10 carat, hand-cut, stone set in a beautiful 99.99% silver plated band."

I just won't have anything to do with them.

But to each their own and if you like their products, then good on ya.
 
Eli Chaps said:
Personally, I find everything about SMKW gimmicky and bordering on slimey. It's like I'm always waiting for the ShamWoW guy to pop on the screen and start hawking knives. They come off like the old commercials with the "brilliant genuine cubic zirconia 10 carat, hand-cut, stone set in a beautiful 99.99% silver plated band."
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hahahahaha, it’s true. I’m a long time fan of SMKW because it’s a little unabashed in its trailer park vibe. Growing up with the catalogs I’d spend hours looking at all the cheap flee market items that appeal to young kids.

ive been pretty impressed with Rough Ryders- yeah, they’re a little of the SMKW vibe, but perfect for giving as gifts to folks who you know abuse or lose knives. Solid users, in my experience. I was actually just using one this morning to clean up a wooden toy I’d sanded already- it saved the edges of my better knives from the grit that always finds its way into the wood surface.
 
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